- This topic is empty.
- Posts
ms,
“All things have been made out of nothing”So God spoke the WORD into existance? If Jesus was BORN wouldn't they have to have been another entity?
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,16:18) God does not need a wife to beget. That limits his power to our understanding of the order of creation. All things have been made out of nothing.
Christ was begotten out of something that already existed, in fact the only thing that did exist. (though i hate to use the word thing). God, the Father.
Men are made out of dirt.
What are animals made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing.
What are angels made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Some traditions say light or fire etc.. etc…
Made from something sure but what and would that constitute being born or created. God call things that aren't as though they are.Rom 4:17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.
There is no scripture that says the Word was born. The beginning of Creation. But that could that mean born?
Rev. 3:14Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,18:13) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,16:26) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,16:18) God does not need a wife to beget. That limits his power to our understanding of the order of creation. All things have been made out of nothing.
Christ was begotten out of something that already existed, in fact the only thing that did exist. (though i hate to use the word thing). God, the Father.
Men are made out of dirt.
What are animals made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing.
What are angels made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Some traditions say light or fire etc.. etc…
msCan you show us a scripture that says Jesus was a “Begotten Son” before his incarnation?
no I can't not by the measure of proof you require.I can demonstrate that:
the Son is not the Father
God had a son
the Son preexisted his incarnation
the Son is divine (of the nature / substance of God)
God is the only immortal ever existing being
the book of Enoch describes the begetting of Christ
the early church all believed what I am saying until Nicea
historic evidence of the evolution of the trinity doctrine.My understanding:
Jesus always existed as a part of his father, his Logos.
Jesus was begotten as a seperate sentient person from the Father, as the Son.
Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments.
My understanding:Jesus always existed as a part of his father, his Logos.
Jesus was begotten as a seperate sentient person from the Father, as the Son.
Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments.In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God and WAS God.
According to Rev. 3:14 The word was the beginning of the creation.
God called everything into existance but not everything is His children.
Are angels His children or simply a creation? I believe that to be the question? In Job the scripture says His sons came before Him.
Job 2:1 Again it came to pass on the day when the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan came also among them to present himself before Jehovah.Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments.
That's for sure but a Created spokesman or a born spoksperson?
The only begotten of the Father was Jesus. So was the Word born AGAIN when He became flesh?
Please don't misunderstand I'm just wanting to understand this. To me scripture says the Word was the first creation of God but not yet a Son. Not until the Word became flesh.
God used Mary's womb which He created to begat Jesus.
So was Jesus the first creation fdrom a womb which made Him a Son? And what about Job and the sons in that scripture? Are the Mormans on to something when they say we were all spiritual beings (sons) before we became flesh?2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
Is this scripture saying that the “WORD” was flesh called Jesus when the Word was sent into the world?
The Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us. The scripture does not say the WORD WAS Flesh, does it?
Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.If the WORD was flesh before the WORD became Jesus then God is flesh and not Spirit. Unless God is the Spirit in flesh that is called God and the flesh of God was the Word BEFORE Jesus. But again scripture says that Jesus was the first Born, begotten of the Father God.
I would welcome any help in this but I don't believe there is enough scripture. Except where Jesus says HE is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev. 3:14 And after the only begotten Son of God. A creation before and a SON afterward.
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:50) If the WORD was flesh before the WORD became Jesus then God is flesh and not Spirit. Unless God is the Spirit in flesh that is called God and the flesh of God was the Word BEFORE Jesus. But again scripture says that Jesus was the first Born, begotten of the Father God. I would welcome any help in this but I don't believe there is enough scripture. Except where Jesus says HE is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev. 3:14 And after the only begotten Son of God. A creation before and a SON afterward.
The word wasn't flesh, but the word was the son. A spirit being. The word was divine as he was from God and the same substance and nature as God. The word inherited Israel as his inheritence from his Father. The other “non unique” “non monogenes” sons inherited the other nations. (i.e. the angels who were created not begotten since Jesus is the only begotten).Jesus is the second YHWH. But is one with the father in nature and unity.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Jesus inherited first Israel from the Father and then he opened the door (a narrow way) for others to leave the kingdoms of the other sons of God (i.e. the principalties and powers and their kingdom of darkness) and enter into the Kingdom of God. Jesus will return and restore the whole earth taking back the dominion of it and gathering his liberated citizens.
Jesus as the second YHWH, they share names:
[Exod 23.20-21] Behold, I [YHWH] send an angel in front of you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my Name is in him.
John 17:11
11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.[Rev 3.12; Christ says] He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down form my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
[Rev 14.1] Then I [John] looked, and low, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Fatherís name written on their foreheads.
[Rev 22.4] There shall no more be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and his servants shall worship him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be on their foreheads.
[Rev 19.12-13] His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows, but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood and his name is the Word of God.
[Gen 15.1-3] After these things the Word of YHWH came to Abram in a vision, “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.” But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring; and a slave born in my house will be my heir.” And behold, the Word of YHWH came to him, “This man shall not be your heir; your own son shall be your heir.”
“The Two Yahwehs”, deals with an even deeper scriptural understanding with regard to the sacred name: the fact that there were two heavenly beings (a father and a son) who were both known as Yahweh. These two Yahwehs belong to a body of heavenly beings generically called the eloahim (individually called eloah). When standing together in unity (as one), the two Yahwehs are often referred to as “Yahweh eloahi,” eloahi denoting a plurality. Father Yahweh has never been seen, neither has his voice been heard, by any human other than the messiah. The son named Yahweh is the Yahweh of the Old Testament, the one who often spoke with and was seen by the patriarchs. He was originally a malak (angel) of the father's presence who acted as the main spokesman (logos) for the father. This archangel (chief angel) was given the father's name as an expression of his authority in order that he might carry out the duties assigned to him. Yahweh the son, also known as Yah, Yahu, and Yah Yahweh, later became the messiah, whose earthly name was Yahushua (“Yahu Preserves” or “Yahu Saves”)-a name later altered in English translations to Jesus.
Non-biblical external witnesses from contemporaries of Jesus:
[WisSol 18.14-16] For while gentle silence enveloped all things, and night in its swift course was now half gone, your all-powerful Word leaped from heaven, form the royal throne, into the midst of the land that was doomed, a stern warrior carrying the sharp sword of your authentic command, and stood and filled all things with death, and touched heaven while standing on earth.
[Ezekiel the Tragedian, Exagoge, 96-99] “Stay, Moses, best of men, do not come near until you have loosed the bindings from your feet; the place on which you stand is holy ground, and from this bush Godís Word shines forth to you.”
[Philo, Conf 146] But if there be any as yet unfit to be called a son of God, let him press to take his place under Godís Firstborn, the Word, who holds eldership among the angels, an archangel as it were. And many names are his for he is called: the Beginning, the Name of God, His Word, the Man after His Image, and “He that sees”, namely Israel.
In a nutshell, man actually knows more about the son than they do the Father. They just happen to think that the son is the Father when actually it was the son.
Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:31) Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments. That's for sure but a Created spokesman or a born spoksperson?
The only begotten of the Father was Jesus. So was the Word born AGAIN when He became flesh?
Please don't misunderstand I'm just wanting to understand this. To me scripture says the Word was the first creation of God but not yet a Son. Not until the Word became flesh.
God used Mary's womb which He created to begat Jesus.
So was Jesus the first creation fdrom a womb which made Him a Son? And what about Job and the sons in that scripture? Are the Mormans on to something when they say we were all spiritual beings (sons) before we became flesh?
Hi Kenrch,
Are you born of God?
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Christ was reborn too from above in the Jordan.
We follow him.Morning Star wrote:
“The Two Yahwehs”, deals with an even deeper scriptural understanding with regard to the sacred name: the fact that there were two heavenly beings (a father and a son) who were both known as Yahweh
*******************************************************************
CAUTION! My brother or sister – there is only ONE YAHWEH!
Your doctrine is running away with you. You are listening to what your itching ears may want to hear. But the Word teaches us that God is One and there is no other.
LEAVE YOUR PHILOSOPHY and cling to the Word, I beg you out of love….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2007,04:50) Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 29 2007,23:31) Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments. That's for sure but a Created spokesman or a born spoksperson?
The only begotten of the Father was Jesus. So was the Word born AGAIN when He became flesh?
Please don't misunderstand I'm just wanting to understand this. To me scripture says the Word was the first creation of God but not yet a Son. Not until the Word became flesh.
God used Mary's womb which He created to begat Jesus.
So was Jesus the first creation fdrom a womb which made Him a Son? And what about Job and the sons in that scripture? Are the Mormans on to something when they say we were all spiritual beings (sons) before we became flesh?
Hi Kenrch,
Are you born of God?
1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.1 John 5:1
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Christ was reborn too from above in the Jordan.
We follow him.
Christ was reborn too from above in the Jordan.
We follow him.
Nick are you saying that Jesus had to be born again like you and I when baptized?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,02:27) Hi kenrch,
He was reborn of water and the Spirit and he said “Follow Me”
ummmmm. I thought He was born of the Spirit? Wasn't Jehovah His Dady? I thought the only reason He was baptized was to show us the way not to be born again.Did Jesus the only begotten Son of God HAVE to be baptized?
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Was Jesus born in sin like you and I?
Jesus was born in heaven so some think.
Jesus was born flesh.
Then Jesus was reborn again?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,02:57) Hi kenrch,
How can you follow him?
How can you follow Him when you don't keep His commandments.1Jo 2:4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
You say Jesus had to be reborn my question is Why when He was the only begotten of the Father.
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.Did Jesus have sin? He was baptized to fulfill righteousness. I need to be baptized by you John the baptist said.
Anyway I'm off your merrygoround
Let me know if you decide to answer anything
Hi kenrch,
He had to show us the way and he needed to be empowered to do the work of God on earth as prior to that moment he was just like any pious man who had lived, weak and impotent.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,03:39) Hi kenrch,
He had to show us the way and he needed to be empowered to do the work of God on earth as prior to that moment he was just like any pious man who had lived, weak and impotent.
Thank you Nick for answering. I understand what you are saying I just don't think He had to be BORN AGAIN like you and I. He had NO sin correct? Unless He had sin from Mary. If that were so then how could He pay our debt. The Lamb had to be spotless.
I know it wasn't until He was Baptized that He started His Ministry. But I don't think when He was baptized it changed His Life like it does a sinner. Don't you agree?Hi kenrch,
He had overcome sin and we too are to become overcomers.
He had no power from above to know or understand or do spiritual things until the fullness of Deity was infilled into him.
Then he revealed all the nature and powers of God to mankind and was killed because men hate God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,03:55) Hi kenrch,
He had overcome sin and we too are to become overcomers.
He had no power from above to know or understand or do spiritual things until the fullness of Deity was infilled into him.
Then he revealed all the nature and powers of God to mankind and was killed because men hate God.
I agree but He did not need to be born again as you and I.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
