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JOHN 1:14
“So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.”JOHN 3:16
““For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.”JOHN 3:18
“He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.”1 JOHN 4:9
“By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.”Jesus’ being called the “only-begotten Son” (Joh 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1Jo 4:9) does not mean that the other spirit creatures produced were not God’s sons, for they are called sons as well. (Ge 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7)
GENESIS 6:2
“then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.”GENESIS 6:4
“The Neph′i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.”JOB 1:6
“Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.”JOB 2:1
“Afterward it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also proceeded to enter right among them to take his station before Jehovah.”JOB 38:4-7
“Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding. Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line? Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”However, by virtue of his being the sole direct creation of his Father, the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God’s sons, all of whom were created or begotten by Jehovah through that firstborn Son. So “the Word” was Jehovah’s “only-begotten Son” in a particular sense, even as Isaac was Abraham’s “only-begotten son” in a particular sense (his father already having another son but not by his wife Sarah).
HEBREWS 11:17
“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son],”
GENESIS 16:15
“Later on Ha′gar bore to A′bram a son and A′bram called the name of his son whom Ha′gar bore Ish′ma·el.”dave
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 30 2006,05:26) Hi Debra,
May God give you wisdom.
Deities are worshiped.
Where is the Word shown as a deity?
Hi Nick
Bad choice of word, deity. They wern't my words, I copied them from the page I was reading from a website.
I should have included not my words, sorry.
As far as I know deity is never a description for Jesus in Scripture but probably used often in New Age litriature.
Wisdom is what I'm praying for and guidance.Quote (the four horseman @ Oct. 30 2006,01:09) Wasn't Jesus begotten in the beginning?
Hello T4H,
Nowhere in the Bible is it written the the Logos was “begotten in the beginning”. It's an unscriptural theory.Quote Before the heavens and the earth? If he is the Word of God, he would have been before all things, would he not? Interestingly, in John 1:1 the verb “was” (Gr: eimi) is the used in the imperfect tense by the author.
John 1
1In the beginning was(Gr. eimi) the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.This is significant. The tense denotes a continuous action of the Word being in the past. By using this construction John was making it clear that whenever the “beginning” was, the logos was already in existence, He was without a beginning, time-less.
Blessings
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 31 2006,01:05) How was Jesus begotten and not created like the other SPIRIT creatures. Was Jesus born in heaven? Scripture seems to say Jesus was created while in heaven and Begotten in flesh. Isn't that when Jesus became the first born again creature and latter first born from the dead?
Jesus as the Word came directly from the Father. He wasn't created because all that is created was created through the son. There is nothing that exists that wasn't created without the son.John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.So how can the son be created if creation is defined by that which came into being by God AND through Christ? If there is nothing that came into being without Christ, then then how is it that Christ exists? This is why some say he is God, for he wasn't the result of God creating through Christ was he?
So Jesus came directly from God and we were created by God through Christ.
1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.So between God and creation there is Christ who is the mediator between us and God.
Now scripture specifically states that he is the ONLY begotten/born son, and scripture states that we were created. However in the new birth, we are also begotten. So we are like him.
But the Greeks couldn't handle Christ. They believed in created or non-created. They found it hard to classify Christ. Was he created or non-created? With the influence of Greek philosophy on christianity, one can understand how fables were created to explain him.
But for us, revelation is the only way we can adequately explain Christ. Scripture is revelation. We don't have to measure things by created or non-created. If we are forced to do that, then we need to believe that Jesus was only a mere man/angel, or God himself. Neither is true, but the proponents of both are many. This is probably how the debate between Athanasius and Arius came to be. They took opposing views, but Greek philosophy prepared the stage for them. Even today, denominations tend to follow either of these men, with Catholics who follow Athanasius, and JWs who follow Arius.
Certainly it makes sense that there is an uncreated God and a created cosmos. But there is a intermediatry step between God and creation. This is one of the reasons why Jesus is unique. It is why he is called the ONLY begotten and the firstborn over all creation.
One more for the road:
Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:Thanx for the welcome.
Nick, I liked your reply using Psalms 2. It is neat when you think that God gave birth to his son in the beginning and then the Son created all things by the will of the Father.
Hi Kenrch. I believe that in the beginning, Jesus was born or begotten of God. Before anything God begat his Son, God gave birth to his Son, the quickening spirit.
Quote (the four horseman @ Nov. 06 2006,15:15) Thanx for the welcome. Nick, I liked your reply using Psalms 2. It is neat when you think that God gave birth to his son in the beginning and then the Son created all things by the will of the Father.
Hi Kenrch. I believe that in the beginning, Jesus was born or begotten of God. Before anything God begat his Son, God gave birth to his Son, the quickening spirit.
In order for the word to have been “born” the way the new creation is; the Father would have to had a wife, and if He did then why did God create flesh. Jesus was the first begotten of God NOT the word.
The Mormans believe that the Father does have a wife and that Jesus was a born child before He was flesh.
Are they right? Does scripture say this?Dear Kenrch,
You are thinking like a man and not a child of God. God does not need a wife. That is silly. That is a lie for you know where.
I think the biggest misunderstanding is the fact that both sides of the debate are correct.
Meaning the seperate sentient Jesus was Created and yet the substance of the nature of Jesus was not.
In fact, Jesus was begotten and not created at all.
The substance of Jesus has always existed within his father. The eternal Logos.
But Jesus did not become a seperate sentient “son” until some time in the dateless past in which the father begot the son. The firstborn of all creation.
Then through his son created all things. Modern Theologians can understand this to mean all other things and get hung up. The early ones didn't see any issue with this. Just as all things are placed under Jesus. BUT, of course not, the Father whom placed all things under him.
The bible does not conflict with this, the early church believed this. Both sides of the debate are Athanasius and Arius and both sides are wrong.
But, now days people use proof texts, philosophy and theology to guide their understanding.
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,13:13) I think the biggest misunderstanding is the fact that both sides of the debate are correct. Meaning the seperate sentient Jesus was Created and yet the substance of the nature of Jesus was not.
In fact, Jesus was begotten and not created at all.
The substance of Jesus has always existed within his father. The eternal Logos.
But Jesus did not become a seperate sentient “son” until some time in the dateless past in which the father begot the son. The firstborn of all creation.
Then through his son created all things. Modern Theologians can understand this to mean all other things and get hung up. The early ones didn't see any issue with this. Just as all things are placed under Jesus. BUT, of course not, the Father whom placed all things under him.
The bible does not conflict with this, the early church believed this. Both sides of the debate are Athanasius and Arius and both sides are wrong.
But, now days people use proof texts, philosophy and theology to guide their understanding.
Before Mary how was the Word born? How was he the first begotten son. Unless we believe as the Mormans that God has a wife and that the angels are actual born children and not created spirit beings.The Mormans believe we were all once spirit children of God and now put in this flesh so we can learn Truth and Joy, right from wrong etc.
What does Rev. 3:14 mean the beginning of the creation?
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Are Angels led by the Spirit of God?
Job 1:6 Now it came to pass on the day when “the sons of God” came to present themselves before Jehovah, that Satan also came among them.
Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.
Luk 20:36 for neither can they die any more: for they are “equal unto the angels; and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”.
When we are resurrected we will be son's of God and equal with angels. Is this scripture saying that Angels are sons of God. Born again believers and already born son's of God. Or created son's of God.
So which is it? Are angels born son's of God or created son's of God. Whichever Jesus was the first. But first born OR first created? Of course He is the first born of the dead.
Which do you believe and why?
God does not need a wife to beget. That limits his power to our understanding of the order of creation.
All things have been made out of nothing.
Christ was begotten out of something that already existed, in fact the only thing that did exist. (though i hate to use the word thing). God, the Father.
Men are made out of dirt.
What are animals made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing.
What are angels made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Some traditions say light or fire etc.. etc…
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,16:18) God does not need a wife to beget. That limits his power to our understanding of the order of creation. All things have been made out of nothing.
Christ was begotten out of something that already existed, in fact the only thing that did exist. (though i hate to use the word thing). God, the Father.
Men are made out of dirt.
What are animals made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing.
What are angels made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Some traditions say light or fire etc.. etc…
msCan you show us a scripture that says Jesus was a “Begotten Son” before his incarnation?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 29 2007,16:26) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 29 2007,16:18) God does not need a wife to beget. That limits his power to our understanding of the order of creation. All things have been made out of nothing.
Christ was begotten out of something that already existed, in fact the only thing that did exist. (though i hate to use the word thing). God, the Father.
Men are made out of dirt.
What are animals made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing.
What are angels made of? I don't know. Maybe nothing. Some traditions say light or fire etc.. etc…
msCan you show us a scripture that says Jesus was a “Begotten Son” before his incarnation?
no I can't not by the measure of proof you require.I can demonstrate that:
the Son is not the Father
God had a son
the Son preexisted his incarnation
the Son is divine (of the nature / substance of God)
God is the only immortal ever existing being
the book of Enoch describes the begetting of Christ
the early church all believed what I am saying until Nicea
historic evidence of the evolution of the trinity doctrine.My understanding:
Jesus always existed as a part of his father, his Logos.
Jesus was begotten as a seperate sentient person from the Father, as the Son.
Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testaments.Quote My understanding: Jesus always existed as a part of his father, his Logos.
Jesus was begotten as a seperate sentient person from the Father, as the Son.
Jesus was and is the spokesman and image of the Father both through the old and new testamentsSo you believe Jesus was a Son that was born a Son.
Cant agree. scriptures clearly show Jesus the Son was named the “Only Begotten” after his natural birth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 29 2007,19:18) Hi W,
Funny that the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn 4]
Very good verse.The son was sent in the flesh.
Hi MS,
1Jn 4
1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
So those who teach God came in the flesh are of antichrist.
They are of theology and the world.
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