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Hi ,
E said
“Hey… what gives? Does the Bible contradict itself after all? No, of course not. This is because to the Hebrew, “firstborn” was a title of preeminence, a place of honor, Manasseh lost this place of honor when he apostatized. So when “firstborn” is used of Jesus Christ it doesn’t mean that Jesus was the first born son from some sexual union between Jehovah and some goddess….!!! lol…. you would have to join Mormonism to find that teaching. Rather, Jesus is preeminent, holding the highest place of honor, where one day, every knee under heaven and earth shall bow before Him.”Some say that Jesus is only firstborn from the dead, but apart from being Mary's firstborn, this is what Col 1 says about him;
” 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
Two firstborns here.
Backing up and agreeing with the fact that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation, we have Proverbs:
“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago….Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains…When he prepared the heavens I was there; …then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I cam to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,…and the things I was found of were with the sons of men.”
(Prov 8:22-31)Could this passage merely be talking about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract?
The Wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Ps 90:1,2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced.
It was “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person. (Prov 8:1)
(Some say that the holy spirit is spoken of in that manner and so the holy spirit must be an individual. Well, the same reasoning would apply to this scripture then.)The fact that the Hebrew word for “wisdom” is always in the feminine gender does not conflict with the use of wisdom to represent God’s Son. The Greek word for “love” in the expression “God is love” is also in the feminine gender. (1 John 4:8) Yet, it is used to refer to God.
Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since was was God’s Word or spokesman and was the one who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. Elsewhere, he is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God,” and also the “wisdom from God.” (1 cor 1:24,30)
david
Hi All:
1 Peter 1:20 states about Jesus: “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last days for you”.
The concept of God begetting a Son in the likeness of human flesh was God's plan in the beginning, and the Word that he would teach him (the Spirit that he would form within him) and all of humanity through him was with God in the beginning. Therefore, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”. (John 1:1-3) “God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in the pas unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:1-3)
He is God's firstborn. The only begotten Son of God. (John 3:16) He came down from heaven in that He was conceived of the Holy Ghost in the womb of the then virgin Mary, and in that the Spirit that was formed within him came from the Father. And he was the first born again from the dead. (Rom 8:29, Col. 1:15, 1:18)
Hi 94,
Of course he was like to us in all ways, and till he was anointed in that Father's Spirit at the Jordan he was indistinguishable from any young person.Then he was filled with God's Spirit and began the ministry appointed to him.
Lk 4
“1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, “Acts 10.38
“38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”His own human spirit thus coexisted with God's just as ours does,
Rom 8
” 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “till he died and it returned to God just as ours does.
Mt 27
” 50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”
Ecc 12
” 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. “but he came alive in the Spirit who never leaves from indwelling sons of God unto eternity.
Nick:
His earthly parents brought him up under the Law of Moses.
“And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew no of it. But they supposing him to have been in the company, went a days journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him, they were amazed; and his mother said unto him, Son, why has thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, 'How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man”. (Luke 2:40-52)
He did not have any advantage over any of us who were born of the sperm of man. I was brought up by Catholic parents and taught about God. I and all of us born of the sperm of man went astray, but Jesus did not, and he was confirmed to be the Son of God when he received the Holy Ghost at about age 30. (Luke 3:22-23) And he was declared to be the Son of God with power, according the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. (Romans 1:4)
“For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities but was in all points tempted like as we are yet without sin”. (Hebrews 4:15)
“GOD IS NOT A MAN, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent:” (Numbers 23:19) James 1:13 states: “Let not man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for GOD CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL, neither tempteth he any man”. JESUS WAS A MAN WHO WAS TEMPTED EVERY WAY THAT WE ARE YET WITHOUT SIN.
Hi 94,
I am confused.
I am having difficulty reconciling these two statements of yours“and in that the Spirit that was formed within him came from the Father.”
and
“he was confirmed to be the Son of God when he received the Holy Ghost at about age 30.”Was he anointed of the Spirit of God from birth or the Jordan.
I believe he had the Spirit with him from birth
and was BAPTISED in the Spirit at the Jordan
-just as the disciples had the Spirit with them from Jn 20.22
and were baptised in that Spirit Acts 2.2.Nick:
Jesus was born into this world a living soul. We know that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost which means that his body was God's own flesh and blood. As an infant he was in innocence, just as all infants that are born into this world. His earthly parents brought him up under the Law of Moses. And what I showed you from the gospel of Luke 2:40-52 is that his spirit or personality was being formed as he studied the Law of Moses. The “Ten Commandments” is God's eternal law. Although all of God's children under the Law of Moses, have sinned. Jesus as a Son of God under the Law did not sin.
He was not anointed with the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized in the Jordan. That is when his ministry began. Prior to that time God had not spoken to humanity through him. Luke 3:21-23 states: “Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, 'Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased'. And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age…”.
Hebrews 5:8-9 states: “Though he were a Son, yet he learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”. John 17:19 states: “And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth”.
Sorry for the confusion, I hope this clears this up, but if not, please let me know.
Also, their was some discussion about the visions of the Lord that were seen in the Old Testament. Jesus tells us that the Holy Ghost will show us things to come. (John 16:13) Perhaps the answer here is that the Holy Spirit showed these visions of things to come.
Hi 94
” We know that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost which means that his body was God's own flesh and blood. “
Mary was his real mother. Scripture says he was conceived using the same word as is used of the conception of John in Elizabeth.There is a thread on conception too.
Quote (the four horseman @ Oct. 24 2006,19:13) I agree. I think Jesus was created ruko.
the four horseman,Welcome. Besides what you think. Where does the Bible say that Jesus was created? Please give me the reference so that I can look it up. Thanks.
Amen Sultan.
Christ was begotten. He came from God. He wasn't created in that sense. His body was created, but he wasn't.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 25 2006,03:40) Amen Sultan. Christ was begotten. He came from God. He wasn't created in that sense. His body was created, but he wasn't.
So before Jesus was begotten flesh was He created?Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “beginning of the creation of God”:
Wasn't Jesus begotten in the beginning? Before the heavens and the earth? If he is the Word of God, he would have been before all things, would he not?
Hi and welcome 4H,
Yes. Psalm 2 speaks of his begettal directly from God, as the solely derived Son of God, the firstborn through whom all other sons of God were created including the sons shown in Gen 6, Job 1,2 38.Quote (the four horseman @ Oct. 30 2006,01:09) Wasn't Jesus begotten in the beginning? Before the heavens and the earth? If he is the Word of God, he would have been before all things, would he not?
Hi 94.
I have just learn't this while investigating the Trinity. There are 3 Assumptions on this topic.1. That God is a trinity, with 3 separate attributes.( this is not my belief)
2. That the Son of God did exist prior to creation, but as a separate deity, except that They were of One Spirit, and Jesus chose to become an mortal man.(neither is this what I believe)
3 The Son of God never existed as a separate deity prior to creation, but was predestined by God(conceived and established by the Will of God's Spirit) from the foundations of the world and formed by God's Spirit to play a major role in His plan of Salvation for mankind.??
I'm praying about this one, and would appreciate some input. I want to further investigate, but so far it's looking to be right in my mind/spirit. I intend to bring this to my pastor when I have it together in words in my head to present to her, but I need help from this body of believers as most believers I know, are Trinity believers.Quote Christ was begotten. He came from God. He wasn't created in that sense. His body was created, but he wasn't. –t8
I've never really understood the distinction. I have always thought he was called the “firstborn of all creation,” and as Kenrch quoted:
Quote Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “beginning of the creation of God”: Sure, yes, he's the only begotten Son. But he did have a beginning and was created in one way or another.
Question:
How was Jesus begotten and not created like the other SPIRIT creatures. Was Jesus born in heaven? Scripture seems to say Jesus was created while in heaven and Begotten in flesh. Isn't that when Jesus became the first born again creature and latter first born from the dead?Who was Jesus' mother if He were born in heaven? To be born one has to have relations with the oppsite sex or whatever. Were Angels born? I believe Jesus was created and the number 1 Son. The Father uses Jesus to create. All things were created through Jesus. I thought that was the whole purpose was to be BORN of God and not created like all the Spirit beings?
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