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Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,08:00) Quote (Cubes @ June 28 2006,02:29) Quote (seminarian @ June 28 2006,00:58) Thanks Cubes, I know I am not 100% correct on every point of doctrine and God still loves and uses me. Any thoughts on this? Do you think ministers like this are deliberately deceiving people or are they trapped as victims of false teachings themselves?
Semmy
Hi Semmy:
Some believe and teach false doctrines because they know no better having never had the opportunity to hear the truth laid out.
Others like all of us, are at different stages of growth but are growing nonetheless and abiding in the true vine and need patience.
However, there are others still who have made up their minds to believe what they want to believe regardless of the truth presented in the scriptures, and these, I believe, after a time, must be left alone to the Lord Jesus if by any means he'll have mercy on them and give them a Paul experience on the way to Damascus. But they take a big gamble because not every one got a Paul experience.
Actually, the scriptures teach that we are to have nothing to do with such people so, yeah, eventually I shall have to admit that we are not of the same faith and so not brother's or sisters. I would think that it depends also on the particular doctrine in question. I am not going to break bond with a sister or brother because they believe that worship on the Sabbath is preferrred to Tuesday or vice versa. But now, if they do not believe in the resurrection, or that Christ is Messiah the Son of God, or insist that God is other than YHWH the one God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… then they are of a different faith and that unfortunately would have to be their decision.
Whoa Cubes,Now we are getting somewhere! In your last paragraph, you were specific in what you felt was the cut off point for fellowship. Good. Thank you for being so candid.
…. So I'm more inclined to give people a chance because I feel God would want me to help them. Now after being shown what God's Word says and they still want to hold to their traditions, well, they will, as you've noted, stand in judgment before Christ for that. I don't think I would refuse to associate with those who just don't know any better though. By patience and prayer, I may be able to reach them but if I don't even try, what can I say?
Thanks!
Semmy
Hi Semmy:Thanks for your response.
We have not been appointed unto wrath but have been commanded to love God and love even our enemies.
This says to me that I should love others including those who fall into the category in discussion.
Now loving is one thing and being in fellowship as brothers and sisters is another thing. I understand that I am not called to fellowship with everyone, least of all the world or false brethren or those who purposefully and willfully attempt to pervert the ways of the Lord God, and that is ok.
Hi,
Surely if you seek the Spirit and the Spirit reveals that your current fellowship is of the Whore and not of the body of Christ then you must obey the admonition to come out of her.The Whore committed spiritual adultery with Emperor Constantine and then produced false doctrines such as trinity, incarnation, infant baptism, salvation by works and magic sacraments and moved from life and power and faith into folly and empty ritual religion.
She has spawned many daughters who still preach some or all of her evil.
Thanks Cubes & Nick,
I do not belong to any church now. The church I serve clearly admits that the word “trinity” is not in the Bible. I have not heard them teach the trinity doctrine directly but many believe in a triune God because they just don't know any alternative. Some even believe this Oneness nonsense which is simply repackaged Modalism. Not good. I am tending to have compassion on people like these rather than the willfull offenders who foisted this garbage on the Body of Christ in the first place. I simply say, Jesus our Lord HAS A GOD. God the Father DOES NOT have a god. John 1:35 says: “To us Christians there is ONE God, the Father and one Lord Messiah.” Now you can't be both at the same time. Then they get deceived by John 10:29 “the Father and I are one”, statement without reading the rest of the chapter especailly verse 34. Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? Add to this the trinitarin bias of the KJV, NIV and several other translations, people really have to dig to find the truth.
Personally, I was blessed with intelligent, Godly parents. They told me straight up when I was about 2 years old, Jesus is the Son of God and God is the Creator of heaven and earth. Going back to England my family were Baptists who held the provision of “soul compentency” and priesthood. Confessions of Faith have no authority over the conscience of the believer as they are only guidelines to interpretation. So Baptists were free to believe or not believe in the doctrines of the church. Furthermore, I had NEVER even heard the word trinity uttered growing up in my church. I was flatly told it was heresy from the Catholic Church which was apostate. Of course, to “fit in” the Baptists still have the “triune thing” in their Baptist Faith & Message! Brother.
So that's why I have my own ministry and after ordination will most likely consider starting my own church. However, I am going to run into people just like this all the time. So I see my work there as a mission field to help those who really have been deceived through no fault of their own. The Pharisees did the same thing during Jesus time. Added rules, twisted scriptures, total oppression. Did he stop fellowshipping with those who were as sheep shorn and strewn without a shepard? No, he discipled them! Did everyone listen to him and come out of the synogogues? No, but that didn't stop him from going back time and again to recue those who were still trapped in that oppressive system of legalism. I have to say that I have been so blessed by taking this approach. My ministry has grown in number and power incredibly over the last year. I'm looking at becoming ordained by 2007 and I serve serveral congregations of saints as well as the unsaved in my ministry. I just ask God to give me wisdom and discernment in all matters of the heart.
Bless you guys and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Semmy
Hi Semmy,
Thanks,
Make sure you are established in the Son, built on the Rock of the Bible and with the foundation stone of Christ laid through rebirth by water and the Spirit in his name, and seek, then walk in the promised gift of the Spirit, and you will be serving the One we are here to serve.Quote (seminarian @ June 29 2006,23:50) So that's why I have my own ministry and after ordination will most likely consider starting my own church. However, I am going to run into people just like this all the time. So I see my work there as a mission field to help those who really have been deceived through no fault of their own. The Pharisees did the same thing during Jesus time. Added rules, twisted scriptures, total oppression. Did he stop fellowshipping with those who were as sheep shorn and strewn without a shepard? No, he discipled them! Did everyone listen to him and come out of the synogogues? No, but that didn't stop him from going back time and again to recue those who were still trapped in that oppressive system of legalism. I have to say that I have been so blessed by taking this approach. My ministry has grown in number and power incredibly over the last year. I'm looking at becoming ordained by 2007 and I serve serveral congregations of saints as well as the unsaved in my ministry. I just ask God to give me wisdom and discernment in all matters of the heart. Bless you guys and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Semmy
May the Lord cause your ministry to be fruitful. From what you spoke of your parents and how you tell people of the Father and his son, I am confident that you shall remain faithful to your calling.
Still I speak in general terms now as I have met those who practically compromise the word thinking to make it more palatable or easier for the sinner, and ending up with people who are really hungry and begging for the word and the accompanying power of the kingdom. I was a member of a church like that for years: The people were some of the nicest I'd ever met. We all got along and hung out after church. What was there not to like. We'd leave church for example and head straight out to the movies, not to get into mischief but just to hang out. It was neat. There was an unmarried couple that was living together… and various things along the lines that the scriptures consider wrong. No sermon was almost ever preached to offer correction or the concept that God desired more of us….
What ended up happening is that after church, some of us ended up fellowshipping in things that centered around our relationship in Christ, and the love continued, and we grew in fervency. God sometimes brought visiting pastors with more biblical words and the church would respond strongly and be blessed.
As time went on many in that particular church would attend morning services at that place and head to another church where the word was preached unadulteratedly on Sunday evening. They came to prefer the latter church and many left the first church so that it seemed to retard in growth. It had some faithful members though but their cohesiveness was held together my their fellowship and also “the Arts,” as many were artists or aspired to be. I had some great times there and made some lasting relationships but I moved on to another location and so could attend neither church. I have to say the second church grew and did not have enough room for the people, had several services, and most of the attendees though were regular visitors from other churches like the one I attended. They wanted to hear the word of God, they wanted to be chastened by the word as children of the Father and loved of course. And they responded overwhelmingly. In my opinion, they lost nothing for being faithful but were blessed instead.
I later experienced similar results myself when I was given the opportunity to lead a cell group. We purposed only to read the scriptures weekly as opposed to using the various booklets. Word spread like wild fire. Many people defected from other cell groups to the one we facilitated, and they came for the word such as God says it. When we read the bible, we cannot be accused of offending people as it is God who says. It saves a lot of trouble that way. People also walked in from the streets so that we had no choice but to host the meeting back at church as there was no room in individual homes. I felt that the people were uplifted and built up, almost as if they'd taken on a regular regimen of exercise.
This caught on and got the pastor's attention, so he adopted the method for Sunday services and no longer had to worry about “preparing sermons.” We saw a marked rise in attendance and the demeanor of the people. Other cell group leaders also went along similar lines and the church was thriving before I left due to distance primarily after many years.
We started attending an evangelical denominational church where the pastor was already doing this. He'd memorize a chapter of scripture each week (great memory but I suppose if soap opera actors and such can memorize things so can pastors for the glory of God) and speak it to the congregation, as though he was Jesus or the apostles. Little of his own words are spoken. Needless to say, they have four services on Sundays and also do thrive and people love it there.
I think it is necessary to hear the word of God and be loving but not at the expense of being a true prophet of God who passes on what God says (not from ourselves but from his written word primarily). By the way I have a close relation who attends Universal Unitarianism and of course is very liberal and I believe gives equal billing to the various indian (hindu) gods as well as Christ, and for her Christ is no more Lord than the others. After years of silence and being considerate and cowardly, I finally prayed God for courage and 2 years ago had the opportunity to speak to her and her husband. They brought up the subject as a matter of fact and I knew I had to be faithful, having asked God for the opportunity. Of course they asked about hell and I had to be honest though my message was chiefly of John 3:16. So they got up and left the table at the restaurant. Didn't speak to me for a year. The husband is atheist.
Well, Go ye into the world and preach the message of the Kingdom of God. The Gospel is not of our own making and few prophets are loved by their own. By prophet, I simply mean the bearers of the message of the bible. I am not a Seer like Samuel who gets “words” from the Lord, so in essence we on HN are to various extents, God's messengers/prophet(ess) when we tell his true words from the holy scriptures.
Blessings in your endeavors.
I also want to clarify and say that I do not necessarily equate a large or rich church with the fact that people are doing God's will, any more than saying a small church or financially poorer church is a sign of failure. To be honest, I tend to enjoy the fellowship at smaller churches more. Of course, it is Christ who determines who is knit to him. I just try to watch out for fruit and evidence of God's presence.
Wow Cubes,
What a testimony! You really have a heart for people and the Word so for that alone, God will honor what you do. It sounds like you've been serving the Body of Christ for quite some time. May God continue to bless your faithfulness, Cubes. I think it is important to realize that sometimes all we are called to do is step up to the plate and speak what God would say from His Word in that circumstance. Our Lord Jesus did so constantly saying that he was not speaking of himself but what his Father tells him to say. Even so, I would rather try even if I make a mistake, than not do anything at all for God's Kingdom.
So I wholeheartedly agree with your point. I love the people at the church I serve and have learned a lot about humility, patience and forgiveness from many of the saints there. Still, I really don't fellowship with them outside of church. They know I am a minister and ethically you don't want to favor one person over another. We're also not supposed to be “buddies” with people we are called to serve and intercede for. I don't wear clericals as the head pastor does not and HE is the the authority there. However in my own ministry, I DO because it affords me many more people to reach for evangelizing and prayer. I am invited to participate in all the events at the church and assist in their minster's certification classes. I'm have been asked to members homes for things like houseblessings or festivites that the other pastors of the church are invited to.
What I'm trying to say is that we really don't have any control over what other Christians think or believe. We will each stand before the Lord and give an accounting for what we ourselves have done. The Pharisees knew and kept the letter of the Law but had no heart for people. The Samaritans were all heart but had no real knowledge of whom they served, (“You Samaritans worship what you do not know” – John 4:22). So we have to strike that balance between the two extremes and remember if we are only concerned with winning a theological argument but in the process “kill” our brother, we've failed completely.
Thanks too Nick for the kind encouragement. May God continue to be gracious to you Cubes and all the rest here!
Semmy
Wow Cubes,
What a testimony! You really have a heart for people and the Word so for that alone, God will honor what you do. It sounds like you've been serving the Body of Christ for quite some time. May God continue to bless your faithfulness, Cubes. I think it is important to realize that sometimes all we are called to do is step up to the plate and speak what God would say from His Word in that circumstance. Our Lord Jesus did so constantly saying that he was not speaking of himself but what his Father tells him to say. Even so, I would rather try even if I make a mistake, than not do anything at all for God's Kingdom.
So I wholeheartedly agree with your point. I love the people at the church I serve and have learned a lot about humility, patience and forgiveness from many of the saints there. Still, I really don't fellowship with them outside of church. They know I am a minister and ethically you don't want to favor one person over another. We're also not supposed to be “buddies” with people we are called to serve and intercede for. I don't wear clericals as the head pastor does not and HE is the the authority there. However in my own ministry, I DO because it affords me many more opportunities to reach for evangelizing and prayer. I am invited to participate in all the events at the church and assist in their minister's certification classes,(I translate the lessons into Spanish for the non-English speaking students). I'm asked to members homes for things like houseblessings or festivites that the other pastors of the church are invited to.
What I'm trying to say is that we really don't have any control over what other Christians think or believe. We will each stand before the Lord and give an accounting for what we ourselves have done. The Pharisees knew and kept the letter of the Law but had no heart for people. The Samaritans were all heart but had no real knowledge of whom they served, (“You Samaritans worship what you do not know” – John 4:22). So we have to strike that balance between the two extremes and remember if we are only concerned with winning a theological argument but in the process “kill” our brother, we've failed completely.
Thanks too Nick for the kind encouragement. May God continue to be gracious to you Cubes and all the rest here!
Semmy
Hi s,
While I agree with your heart but I would put some thoughts to you.For example we are required to discern with whom we break bread.
In so doing we are acknowledging before God that they are all one with Christ and in a denomination such a decision cannot be made.
The lead pastor only has authority over you if he is in Christ and apponted by Christ to that position, or you choose to give him authority over you, but we all have one head and that is Christ.
Quote (seminarian @ June 29 2006,18:50) Thanks Cubes & Nick, I do not belong to any church now. The church I serve clearly admits that the word “trinity” is not in the Bible. I have not heard them teach the trinity doctrine directly but many believe in a triune God because they just don't know any alternative. Some even believe this Oneness nonsense which is simply repackaged Modalism. Not good. I am tending to have compassion on people like these rather than the willfull offenders who foisted this garbage on the Body of Christ in the first place. I simply say, Jesus our Lord HAS A GOD. God the Father DOES NOT have a god. John 1:35 says: “To us Christians there is ONE God, the Father and one Lord Messiah.” Now you can't be both at the same time. Then they get deceived by John 10:29 “the Father and I are one”, statement without reading the rest of the chapter especailly verse 34. Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? Add to this the trinitarin bias of the KJV, NIV and several other translations, people really have to dig to find the truth.
Personally, I was blessed with intelligent, Godly parents. They told me straight up when I was about 2 years old, Jesus is the Son of God and God is the Creator of heaven and earth. Going back to England my family were Baptists who held the provision of “soul compentency” and priesthood. Confessions of Faith have no authority over the conscience of the believer as they are only guidelines to interpretation. So Baptists were free to believe or not believe in the doctrines of the church. Furthermore, I had NEVER even heard the word trinity uttered growing up in my church. I was flatly told it was heresy from the Catholic Church which was apostate. Of course, to “fit in” the Baptists still have the “triune thing” in their Baptist Faith & Message! Brother.
So that's why I have my own ministry and after ordination will most likely consider starting my own church. However, I am going to run into people just like this all the time. So I see my work there as a mission field to help those who really have been deceived through no fault of their own. The Pharisees did the same thing during Jesus time. Added rules, twisted scriptures, total oppression. Did he stop fellowshipping with those who were as sheep shorn and strewn without a shepard? No, he discipled them! Did everyone listen to him and come out of the synogogues? No, but that didn't stop him from going back time and again to recue those who were still trapped in that oppressive system of legalism. I have to say that I have been so blessed by taking this approach. My ministry has grown in number and power incredibly over the last year. I'm looking at becoming ordained by 2007 and I serve serveral congregations of saints as well as the unsaved in my ministry. I just ask God to give me wisdom and discernment in all matters of the heart.
Bless you guys and thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Semmy
Brother Semmy,I will be praying for you and your ministry. May God use you to further the Kingdom. Just remember one thing bro, we can't start our “own church”. We can only build on that foundation that was laid by the apostles with Christ as the chief cornerstone.
Shalom
Amen Woutlaw.
We must build on the true foundation, otherwise that which we build and call our own will eventually fall like all things in the world do. That foundation was laid by Christ, the Apostles, and the prophets. Upon this we should build.
But even on the true foundation our works can still fail, but we will be saved because of that foundation.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15
11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.It is Jesus who builds the Church and not just any church, but HIS Church.
Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.amen t8,
1 Peter 2.4
” And coming to him as a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ”
Eph 2.20f
“having been built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in who you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit”Hi,
2 Tim 2.15
“Be diligent to present yourself as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, ACCURATELY HANDLING THE WORD OF TRUTH”4.3
“for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance with their own desires, and will turn their ears away from the truth, and will turn to myths”Sound doctrine is from the word of God, which is truth.
Hi,
We have Christ still as the head of his body so we will know when he returns as we will be drawn to him. We do not need to search for him here.
Matt 24.24
“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”Mk 13
” 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.”
“Hi ,
In another thread Oxy had this to share“The Lord also told me to say this to you.
You who have set yourselves up as teachers and lead astray those who are the Lords will receive 100 fold the wrath of God because of your wickedness and deception. “
Does God give us words to say to others of this nature?
Does God give us word about others and their walk?
How do we check our word except against scripture?
Is the the type of work of a prophet or not?I would like to hear from others on the principles involved here.
Hi,
1Tim 4
” 1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11These things command and teach.
12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
14Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
15Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.
16Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee”
So
True teaching comes from clinging fast to scripture and teaching from scripture. The focus is on God.
False teaching comes fromDoctrines of demons.
Seducing spirits.
Fables and myths.
Worldly ideas.
Unteachability.
Faithlessness.
Lies.
Profanity.
Hypocrisy.
Legalism.
Lack of scripture study.
Lack of insight.
Self doubt.
Following men.These come from brothers who do not walk in the truth and we should not follow them in their folly.
Hi ,
Peter warned us in his second letter about false teachers.“1.19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.”
So they do not respect or hold to scripture.
They do not fear God.
They interpret scripture according to their ideas.
Their faith is in themselves.
They mingle lies with truth.
They teach heresy.
They attract followers.They are popular with men but in a difficult position with God.
Hi,
Jesus said two things that seem similar but are not the same and seem almost contradictory to one another.
Mk 9
” 40For he that is not against us is on our part. “and
Matt 12
” 30He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad”It is all to do with CONTEXT.
Those of the world who do not oppose the work of the sons of God are unknowingly showing they are of the ways of God and are helping the kingdom.
But those who are among the disciples of Jesus and not united with them in Spirit but opposing the work of God done through that body of Christ are thereby showing that they are also not one with Christ and indeed are antichrist.
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