False teachers

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2010,22:56)

Also it is interesting that Jesus said that the end wouldn't come until the good news was heard over the whole world.

Theres still the Middle East to go.

Maybe the whole world means everywhere but the Middle East ?

October 7, 2010 at 11:21 am#219022

Participant

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

These words come from Jesus' mouth, yet Irene states ” Most Churches believe in the Ten Commandments which was the Old Covenant and not the New and void………”

Shimmer, you lovingly warned me about people in churches, a warning that is true, there are many wolves in church. I want to warn you, do not let someone who is wise in thier own estimation guide you either. This, as an example, is point blank wrong. The ten commandments are not void. The great commandment sumed up the law and the prophets but he never said that it replaced it.On the contrary-18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.Matt 5:18.

But, as Jesus and Paul said, you cannot justify yourself by the law, only by the blood of Christ/faith in him are you saved. Irene believes that anyone who believes in the trinity is lost and swimming in false teaching. I have said over and over that I do not base my salvation on the church or a “doctrine” taught by said church, but the “litmis test” that she applys to other christians I do not pass, so what she is saying to you is “Mark believes in the trinity so whatever he says is wrong”. This is what I say- Believe in Gods son and do your best to love him and love your neighbor as yourself, don't let theology from hundreds of differant opinions and interpretations confuse that.” Do good and be merciful, and at judgement you will get the same.For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”Matt 7:2. If you judge others by every letter of the bible, then thats what you will problibly expect at judgement in place of mercy and forebearance IMO. Love and peace- Mark

October 7, 2010 at 11:39 am#219023

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:30)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2010,22:56)

Also it is interesting that Jesus said that the end wouldn't come until the good news was heard over the whole world.

Theres still the Middle East to go.

Maybe the whole world means everywhere but the Middle East ?

This is one tough subject to consider for me. This is really what I believe your question on those who have never heard of the real Jesus is about. This is what I wonder ” what will God do with those people who are really kind and gentle and giving, but who are taught by their parents from the beginning that Jesus is not God's son? ” I have read some of the Koran, because I wanted to know what these people really thought, and the suprise to me was how many times Jesus is mentioned, but the shock to me was the statement that said that God had no son, and Jesus was just a prophet. I agree with what Irene said about this in that we will just have to leave that up to God. I believe Mohammed was the false prophet, and he has misled a third of the whole world, but judgement is Gods.Peace

October 7, 2010 at 11:52 am#219024

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:25)

God will draw people to the son, the Holy Spirit will teach them, from there, we either keep what we know to ourself or share it, There is rejoicing in heaven over ONE that is saved.

Just by chance I was flipping through the channels last night, and saw one of Billy Gramns crusades. I think IMO he was the real deal. He seemed to me to preach Christ in a loving way, and he has led many, many people to him. By and large TV evangelist are Christ mongers, but like you said, the Jesus they testify to is real and his power is too. These men will have to give an accounting to God for the money they collect, but, as stated before, judgement is Gods. Peace

October 7, 2010 at 12:40 pm#219028

Participant

“

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 07 2010,22:21)

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

These words come from Jesus' mouth, yet Irene states ” Most Churches believe in the Ten Commandments which was the Old Covenant and not the New and void………”

Mark! I hope you read all of this……Let me correct you, the Ten Commandment is the Old Covenant, and read it in
Exd 34:27 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Exd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

This is the Old Covenant the Ten Commandments.

The New Covenant and the great Commandments is in

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The New Covenant is in

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
In the KJ V of the Bible it says the New Covenant. And the KJ is the closest to the original Transcript…. If you think this is easy, to also keep all of the Law spiritual, meaning if you hate your Brother, you have committed Murder in your Hearth. If you lust after a woman, you have committed Adultery in your Hearth…. Jesus also magnified the Law ion the Sermon on the Mount…..Jesus also said the road is steep and few will find it….
Also Mark, when you say something about another person, and implying that they are not loving? How can you know that, you don't know them personal. Just because some on here will show you scriptures which you don't want to hear, does not make them unloving……Peace Irene

October 7, 2010 at 1:00 pm#219030

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:25)

God will draw people to the son, the Holy Spirit will teach them, from there, we either keep what we know to ourself or share it, There is rejoicing in heaven over ONE that is saved.

shimmer! Great, My Husband likes to talk about God and the JW came to our House too. We had many conversations with them. One thing is for certain, they have some truths, They believe in the preexisting of Jesus, which we too. It was one of them that first told us about. At that time we said:” Are you crazy.' It took us some studying before we understood it…Asking for wisdom is one rule my Husband has always done…..It is hard to believe that we will be married in January for 50 years. ….You are right about one sinner repenting, there is going to be a hard time coming yet, before Christ will set up His Kingdom. Unfortunately there will be many that will end up in the Lake of Fire. That however is another subject……Peace Irene

October 7, 2010 at 1:23 pm#219033

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 07 2010,22:21)

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

These words come from Jesus' mouth, yet Irene states ” Most Churches believe in the Ten Commandments which was the Old Covenant and not the New and void………”

Mark! When you say what you just did about me, without finding out what I really believe, you are judging. Educate yourself, and I mean this not in a accusing way. We all have to come to the truth. To me the Bible presents that, not a Catholic Church or any other Church that teaches false doctrine. The Bible tells us to prove all things, before you believe it. We too had to do so. At one time I was just like you, the Catholic Church did nothing wrong in my eyes then either. It is because God called us out, that we understand it now. Why do you think that the first Christians died by the Millions for Christ in the first three centuries. The firs Christians never believed in the trinity. It was in the third Century when all changed. I think I already said so much in my first post to you. It seems that you take criticism when I say something that is in the Bible. You can also look up Heaven Net, He has a good article on the trinity too….
I am not criticizing you as a person, and I wish you will come to all of the truths that the Bible teaches us. And I wish you well. It has nothing to do with a person.. Just to show you. Our Third Son goes to a Baptist Church and also 3 of our Grandchildren….. When We left the Catholic Church we lost our so called friends, however Christ is always with me and not to speak of God's Holy Spirit living in us.

One question. When the Holy Spirit came to Maria and She then was with Child, who is the Father of Jesus? Not the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is not a person. If the Holy Spirit would be person then He would be the father of Jesus, and we don;t believe that, do we?

Goodluck, and study this for your own good, nit mine…… It is also up to Gd, all I can do kis show you Scriptures……

..Peace Irene

October 8, 2010 at 12:01 am#219067

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 07 2010,23:21)

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

These words come from Jesus' mouth, yet Irene states ” Most Churches believe in the Ten Commandments which was the Old Covenant and not the New and void………”

Mark, the 10 commandments were written with the hand of God, Jesus put them into the heart, love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour,

The Trinity I dont understand so I dont judge what I dont understand, I believe there more important things such as what is in the heart than how we percieve the same God and the same son,

“For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.”

Regarding the Trinity, from what I think I understand of it, the son has the second place, is not equal, is that right ?

October 8, 2010 at 12:10 am#219069

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 07 2010,23:39)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:30)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 04 2010,22:56)

Also it is interesting that Jesus said that the end wouldn't come until the good news was heard over the whole world.

Theres still the Middle East to go.

Maybe the whole world means everywhere but the Middle East ?

Mark, I completly agree with you, it is obvious, a third of the world misled, told a lie, I have studied this, they are having dreams and visions of Jesus too, I guess its a sign, Christians in the middle east are being persecuted, they even have ID cards stating 'Christian, Muslim or Jew' (Rev buy or sell…its effecting them for finding work, buying and selling) everything is in scripture,

October 8, 2010 at 12:12 am#219070

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 08 2010,11:01)

Quote (mikeangel @ Oct. 07 2010,23:21)

19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

These words come from Jesus' mouth, yet Irene states ” Most Churches believe in the Ten Commandments which was the Old Covenant and not the New and void………”

Mark, the 10 commandments were written with the hand of God, Jesus put them into the heart, love the Lord thy God and love thy neighbour,

The Trinity I dont understand so I dont judge what I dont understand, I believe there more important things such as what is in the heart than how we percieve the same God and the same son,

Regarding the Trinity, from what I think I understand of it, the son has the second place, is not equal, is that right ?

shimmer, with all the Scriptures that were given, you still don't know if the trinity is wrong? That really surprises me. If you don't understand then you should first ask God to show who is right and who is wrong and then study those Scriptures given. I tell you what, I will bring the article from Heaven net her….It is rather long but good.

Is the Trinity Doctrine taught in the bible?
——————————————————————————–
God had challenged my belief on the Trinity many years ago, as I blindly believed and excepted this doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely.

When I started to look into the Trinity Doctrine I found many scriptures that really challenged my belief so I set out to understand the truth. When I brought the subject up with other Christians including many people who were older in the faith than myself, that there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided rather than make waves, I would just leave it and except that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. My problem was the fear of man. Many years later God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore and I did a full on study where God divinely lead me to a new scripture, about one each day and each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what he was conveying to me. First of all I would like to say that I have a clear understanding of the Trinity Doctrine and am very familiar with the scriptures that people use to support this doctrine.

Anyway what I discovered was quite interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of.
Creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through, and Mary was exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the saints was sanctioned.
The organized church was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today's churches/denominations. These denominations are different to the Body of Christ spoken of in the scriptures. This shows us that most denominations are still rooted in a creed and in particular the Trinity Doctrine. Most denominations still have the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation and this doctrine originally came from Babylon.
The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known today as the Dark Ages.
Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
As a result many new denominations started up and unfortunately they held onto some of the creeds and in particular the Trinity Doctrine.
From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn't come into existence or wasn't recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

I think the fruit of this doctrine is evident. If we exalt Jesus as God, then why not exalt Mary who after gave birth to Jesus. We can now see how Mary came to be called the Mother of God and how worship of the saints was sanctioned. So these creeds became the new foundation and on top of this foundation men built their churches/denominations.

In Revelation 17 we read about the Mother of Harlots or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section
of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth in some way is the original model of the person we call the Pope today, as the Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it's very name that it's roots are in Rome and many of the traditions come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were renamed as Christian back in the days of Constantine. Now in one sense we can see that creeds lead to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God for a lie. But to manage this foundation there needed to exist some kind of organization of men to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organization are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is the mother. Perhaps the smaller denominations are the harlots. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this woman. We all know that many leaders have befriended the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own gain and vote. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives are to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt or Rome will always enslave the Children of God and in many cases also kill them. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. Well history records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people of whom many were Christian They were labeled heretics for things like reading scripture, translating scripture or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their tradition. See this page for more details.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. The curse of Babel is division, and this is what see when we look at the church today. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition. Denominations are the Christian languages just as the natural languages are a result of Babel.

But true unity is something that God will bring about and something that he is already doing. This is not to say that all denominations are evil or a part of this system. Many are being used by God for his purposes. But in times of great ignorance God does compromise for our benefit. The truth is that there really is only one church and the foundation is Christ and the Apostles and the only divisions are geographical. The 7 churches in Revelation are actually 7 cities but one church. E.g. to the Church in Laodecia means the Church/Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds. Often Christians are required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church and once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn't be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, yet they could be a mass murderer. True believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God's children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they also contain nonbelievers and even some extreme unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope or a President. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of 3 persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Or Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. I prefer to use these scriptures instead. I think this picture is far more accurate because it is scripture, not some creed that came from man. John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

God exists and rewards those that seek him.
We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.
I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational one. But the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is another foundation. Another foundation is not the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.

13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scripture
s that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that 'Elohim' and 'Theos' are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh's Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God's name is in his sons name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
The Son is the exact brightness of Gods glory.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is the image of the invisible God.
See Colossians 1:12-16
God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
He is seated at the right hand of God.
See Colossians 3:1-3
He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
See Revelation 1:4-6
Jesus has first place in everything.
Jesus is head over the Church.
See Ephesians 1:22
He is Gods firstborn.
See Hebrews 1:1-6
Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
See Revelation 3:14
Jesus is begotten, not created.
See John 1:3
The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in fairness we have to say that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is 2 different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, his sons. So Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But we can also partake of the divine nature, yet that doesn't make us God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn't know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' ”

& Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking
about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a diagram in your mind. It is the nature of Man to do so. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine.

God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word 'god' can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization.

Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart.

Three more scriptures before I finish.
Proverbs 30:4 shows us that the Son of God existed as the Son before he came to earth as a Man.
Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”

So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is the Father.

For a much more in-depth look at what I have said here and also a closer look at the scriptures that people use to support the Trinity Doctrine please visit the following page. /writings/trinity.htm.
Participate in an expansive discussion called “Trinity”.
Try the Trinity Test for yourself.

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October 8, 2010 at 12:21 am#219073

Participant

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 08 2010,01:00)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:25)

God will draw people to the son, the Holy Spirit will teach them, from there, we either keep what we know to ourself or share it, There is rejoicing in heaven over ONE that is saved.

Hi Irene, good on you both, you and your husband.

JWs do have alot of truth, just as TV evangelists have alot of truth, truth with error. If it brings people to God and not to THEM then its good. I think a person can learn alot from just being alone rather than listening to others, you will never find the full truth in any denomination, iv learnt that. Its a waste of time to even try to search for one. Though maybe God places people within the churches who are willing to ask questions, do they get 'kicked out' ? How long do they last ?

October 8, 2010 at 12:23 am#219076

Participant

And ok, thanks for that Irene, I will read it later when I have more time. I think I read it actually, if it's what t8 wrote, but it was a while ago.

October 8, 2010 at 12:44 am#219077

JustAskin

Participant

John 8:28, “I do nothing of my own but only what the father has taught me”

Two things here;
1) Why the definitive term 'the Father', if Jesus is the only Son of God – surely he would say “my Father”?

2) If Jesus only does what his father teaches him to do how is it said that Jesus was (was?) EQUAL to God and didn't think it was robbery?
Does some one who is EQUAL to another get taught things by that other EQUAL other?
Does some one who is EQUAL to another get GIVEN POWER and AUTHORITY by that other EQUAL other?
Does some one who is EQUAL to another get SENT TO DO things by that other EQUAL other?
Can the Son be EQUAL to the Father while the Father is still in Power? (Is Prince Charles EQUAL to the his Mother, the Queen of England?)
(Many other such anomalies which EQUALIST's will not confront – or else they give obscure or irreverent responses to)

Jesus goes to great lengths to say “My Father is greater than I”, “I can do nothing except what I see Him do”, “I say this openly only so they can know that I pray to you”… doesn't seem like someone saying they are EQUAL to that other one, to me?

October 9, 2010 at 12:31 am#219225

Participant

Quote (JustAskin @ Oct. 08 2010,11:44)

John 8:28, “I do nothing of my own but only what the father has taught me”

Two things here;
1) Why the definitive term 'the Father', if Jesus is the only Son of God – surely he would say “my Father”?

You are right, not to talk about God's Holy Spirit being a person, and also equal to Jesus and Jehovah God….The Holy Spirit was given to us at Baptism And lives in us. How can a person live in us? Really, and then if the Holy Spirit if a person is Jesus Father. Also wrong…..A man made doctrine and not of God. Period….Peace Irene

October 9, 2010 at 12:44 am#219228

Ed J

Participant

To All,

I see this yet another thread being turned into trinity thread.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

October 9, 2010 at 2:30 am#219242

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Oct. 09 2010,11:44)

To All,

I see this yet another thread being turned into trinity thread.

Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed, since the trinity is false teaching, it is on topic. It is a man made doctrine and not of God. The Holy Spirit of God is not a person, and The Word of God is not God's Holy Spirit who became flesh in verse 14 of John 1:1…..that is just the beginning of the prove that I can show you, but I will not waste my time……I have given all those Scriptures before….I am tired and going to bed. Good night…..Peace Irene

October 9, 2010 at 9:29 am#219261

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 08 2010,11:21)

Quote (Baker @ Oct. 08 2010,01:00)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 07 2010,20:25)

God will draw people to the son, the Holy Spirit will teach them, from there, we either keep what we know to ourself or share it, There is rejoicing in heaven over ONE that is saved.

Hi Irene, good on you both, you and your husband.

Shimmer, I guess I'll find out how long. Not only have I asked questions, I have written letters defining my differences, so far just strange looks and comments, but the people that really love me support me. Peace

October 9, 2010 at 10:57 am#219272