Fallen angels

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Rev 12 ” And a great SIGN appeared in heaven.A woman cothed with the Sun and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars” God uses the stars and sun and moon as signs to us and this was promised in Genesis.The alignment of the constellations [virgo,drago and the corona of Bernices]and heavenly bodies is said to have occurred only once in history at the end of the 1990s
“And she was with child and she cried out,being inlabour and in pain to give birth.And another sign appeared in heaven and behold a great red dragon having 7 heads and ten horns , and on his head were 7 diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the Earth..”

7″And there was war in heaven ,Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.And the dragon and his angels waged war and they were not strong enough and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.And the great dragon ,the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan ,who deceives the whole world,he was thrown down to the earth and his angels thrown down with him..”

The first part of these scriptures is a different way of saying the second part.The angels are often symbolised as stars so the first scripture gives us the detail that a third of the angels fought with satan and were thrown to earth.

[Proclaimer]

Hi Sammo,

How many times do you want me to quote Revelation 12:7
7″And there was war in heaven ,Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.And the dragon and his angels waged war and they were not strong enough and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.And the great dragon ,the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan ,who deceives the whole world,he was thrown down to the earth and his angels thrown down with him..”

What about Revelation 12:4 as Nick quoted.
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

So yes prophecy uses symbols a lot and for a good reason. That reason is so that the prophecies will not be understood by any old person. Rather it is encoded in symbols to seal up the meaning. But it can be unsealed or revealed to those who seek and to those whom the Spirit shows.

You see that with the parable of the wheat and tares. Jesus disciples asked for it in plain language and got it. Even in Revelation, some of the symbols are decoded for us.

But a reader also needs to decern between symbol and real language.

E.g., Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Is this verse using symbols? If it was then we could say that God, Jesus and John didn't really exist. A similar argument that you make with the Devil.

Anyway if the symbols in Revelation cause you a problem, then the symbols are doing the job that they were designed for.

[Sammo]

Hi nate

Quote (nate @ Sep. 27 2004,22:14)

the gist of my question was that if sin entered the world through adam then the serpent and the woman were guiltless…

I think that's the way I see it – Paul is quite specific in Romans 5:

Quote

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: . 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. . 17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) . etc etc

The serpent was just an animal, part of God's “very good” creation (Genesis 1:31), though given the power of speech like Balaam's ass (Numbers 22). The bottom line is, that if it were the devil, the curse in Genesis 3 seems a little redundant:

Quote

14 ¶ And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

If the serpent was the devil, as some people imply from John 8 and Revelation 12, then this curse is rendered pretty much meaningless – for nobody at all thinks that the devil is confined to the body of a serpent.

So far as Eve goes, that's a very interesting point you raise, because it does seem like she sinned before Adam did, yet that's not what Romans 5 and 1st Corinthians 15 say – I'm really not sure about that. Maybe “Adam” in Romans 5 means “Adam and Eve” in the same way that “men” often means “men and women”? I've also heard it suggested that Adam could have redeemed his bride by not eating the fruit in the same way that Christ (the second Adam) redeemed his bride (us), which is a cute thought

What do you think?

Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,20:22)

You say the wages of sin are death and apply that to the angels. But death comes through the law and the law was given to men and not angels so your inferences are wrong.

If death comes through the law, then why do we die? We've never been under the law. Rather, sin reigned even from Adam to Moses (before the law), as Paul says in Romans 5:

Quote

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

If people died before the law, then clearly the law is not the cause of death. I stick by what I said, that the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). That's also what Ezekiel 18 says:

Quote

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The bottom line is, that our hope is to be made “equal unto the angels” (Luke 20:36) in God's kingdom. If we can still sin in that state, then what kind of hope is that?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,20:22)

To use satan as an adjective is only possible if there is a comparative being. If I say you are a fox it only makes sense if we both know what a real fox is.

Well, I know what an adversary is.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,20:22)

The noun Satan occurs over 50 times in the bible -are you suggesting every time it relates to a different evil person without reference to any being?

Almost – sometimes it's sin personified, which happens more than once.

Do a search for “Satan” in Hebrew (as in Strongs 7854) in the Old Testament. Tell me if you still think Satan is an immortal evil being, because the record is amazingly silent…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,20:22)

We know from Job that Satan indeed is responsible for illnesses and disasters of every kind and Jesus demonstrated that truth constantly.

I've quoted many verses that attribute suffering to God. You have to explain these first before you contradict my view.

Cheers,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,20:54)

I note you quote a lot from Job. Certainly Job attributed his sufferings to God-he may not even have known anything about Satan. He was right in a way because as you say God has the ultimate choice in all matters. But anyone reading the frist few chapters of Job would realise that God gave permission for Satan, as His agent, to test Job.

OK – this post will be about:

Satan in Job

Certainly, the first two chapters of Job can be read that Satan caused Job's suffering. For instance, in Job 1:

Quote

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Against this, however, is the fact that Job and all of his acquaintances attribute his suffering to the hand of God (Job 1:21; 2:10; 19:21; 42:11). The question becomes, if Job and his friends knew all about God, then why did they know nothing at all about Satan? Certainly whoever wrote Job definitely did, according to the orthodox interpretation.

This is an expecially pertinent question if the serpent in Genesis 3 was the devil, as is commonly contended. Surely Job's knowledge of God demonstrates a familiarity with what took place in Eden, in which case he should have known to attribute his suffering to Satan, and not to God.

You also mention, and rightly so, that Satan asked permission of God to tempt Job, eg in Job 2:

Quote

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. 5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. 6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Is this really the picture of the orthodox devil? – that he has to ask for God's permission to tempt someone? How is that really any different to saying that God himself does the tempting?

And if Satan is acting as God's “agent” in this case, then how is he a rebel angel?

It's also interesting that Satan, as well as Job, attributes Job's suffering to God's hand – he says “put forth thine hand” (v5). It reads to me that although Satan came up with the ideas for Job's suffering, it was God's hand that physically brought them to pass.

What I suggest is that Satan here is a human acquaintance of Job, that was clearly very jealous of his success. He wished several terrible things against Job, and so God brought them to pass.

It's noteworthy that “Satan” is never mentioned beyond Job chapter 2. At the end of the book, when God wraps everything up and the whole story is resolved, where is Satan? We don't hear anything about him at all. If aim of the story is to show God vindicating Job against Satan, then surely we should expect to read about this when all was said and done, and Job was restored. What we do read, is that Job's human friends are rebuked – who knows, maybe Eliphaz is the Satan of Job 1 and 2?

Take care,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
The Law was in force until the time of John, but it will never pass away. All men are under conscience[Rom 2. 9-15] and Law until they are born again and pass from death into life and only then there is no judgement of condemnation.

Your church seems to teach that salvation is by works. But you must be born again to receive that salvation as God demands it. Yes our mortal bodies still degenerate but the life within will enable us to be resurrected into our new body so why worry how short our natural life is?

Do you agree the law does not apply to the angels ?

It is not for me to prove the simple words of the bible. It is you who are denying the simple revelation of the word by denying the words of Jesus and john about Satan. You take away the truth when you say Satan is only a personificatiopn of sin.

Do you fear God? Beware of the words of Revelation 22.19 “if anyone TAKES AWAY from the words of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life..”

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2004,19:26)

Rev 12 ” And a great SIGN appeared in heaven.A woman cothed with the Sun and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars” God uses the stars and sun and moon as signs to us and this was promised in Genesis.The alignment of the constellations [virgo,drago and the corona of Bernices]and heavenly bodies is said to have occurred only once in history at the end of the 1990s

OK, so you see Revelation 12:1-2 as talking about an event in the late 1990s…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2004,19:26)

The first part of these scriptures is a different way of saying the second part.The angels are often symbolised as stars so the first scripture gives us the detail that a third of the angels fought with satan and were thrown to earth.

…but you see Revelation 12:3-9 as describing the fall of Satan, several thousand years ago? Does that really make sense?

I'm pretty sure you just contradicted yourself within the same post, but I'll deal with both parts separately.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2004,19:26)

Rev 12 ” And a great SIGN appeared in heaven.A woman cothed with the Sun and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of 12 stars” God uses the stars and sun and moon as signs to us and this was promised in Genesis.The alignment of the constellations [virgo,drago and the corona of Bernices]and heavenly bodies is said to have occurred only once in history at the end of the 1990s

Sure, the alignment you mentioned is very interesting, but is it what Revelation 12:1 describes? Why would an alignment of constellations be described as “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”?

When the dragon persecutes the woman in verse 13, what does this have to do with constellations?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2004,19:26)

The first part of these scriptures is a different way of saying the second part.The angels are often symbolised as stars so the first scripture gives us the detail that a third of the angels fought with satan and were thrown to earth.

Where else are angels symbolised as stars?

Also, Revelation describes events that were future to John (Revelation 1:1). Therefore this can't be talking about the fall of Satan, as this is supposed to have taken place before the garden of Eden.

As I mentioned before, we read of 7 headed, 10 horned red beasts elsewhere in Revelation. In Revelation 17, the chapter itself defines the beast as being symbolic of kings, and the “mountains on which the woman sitteth” etc, which incidentally is a clear reference to Rome. In any case, it's definitely a political context.

In Revelation 13, the beast is made up of the creatures in Daniel 7, which are clearly also symbolic of kings (eg Dan 7:17). Incidentally, that the fourth of these beasts also refers to Rome is clear from the empires prophesied in Daniel 2 – it all ties together perfectly. In any case, once again, it's definitely a political context.

Now if the 7 headed, 10 horned beasts in Revelation 13 and 17, and the beasts in Daniel 7, are all clearly symbolic of kingdoms of men, then surely this is also true of the 7 headed, 10 horned dragon in Revelation 12? Is that unreasonable?

Revelation 12:9 says that the dragon is Satan. If the dragon here is symbolic of kingdoms of men, then Satan is not literal.

Cheers,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
We are not equal to angels in Jesus but greater than them as Hebrews 1 tells us.So also in Lk 20 it says we are LIKE TO angels in our new body but that does not include equality.

Satan asked God to put His hand on Job but God immediately gave the work to Satan to do.

The fact that Satan was a rebel did not exclude him from access to God .

So wishing evil on your friends causes problems for them. This sounds more like witchcraft than true faith?

As you say there is lttle avbout Satan in the OT so how would Job be aware of his abilities.

So the end of Job does not give credit to SDatan. So what. In comparison to God he is a mere tool.

You do not approach scripture to learn from it ,it seems but only use it to justify your beliefs. It would be wiser to respect it more.

[Sammo]

Hi t8, thanks for your replies.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. I can't see that belief in the Devil being an angel as an elementary teaching, not in this verse at least.

Yes, well there's a certain irony about that

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

In fact the whole reason that Jesus came to this earth was to destroy the works of this enemy.

Not just his works, but the enemy itself, as Paul says in Hebrews 2:

Quote

14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

According to this verse, Jesus destroyed the devil – then who tempts us today?

Rather, Jesus overcame sin, and made it possible for us to be forgiven.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

You have said many times that this enemy is not a person or that he doesn't exist as a living being. But this so-called non-existant enemy you talk of, tempted Jesus for 40 days and he appeared before God on ocassion in order to put certain men to the test. You then you say that this enemy is human adversary

True, I've said both. Sometimes satan and diabolos mean human adversaries and slanderers, and sometimes they are used as a personification of sin.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

You then you say that this enemy is human adversary, when scripture clearly teaches that these evil attributes have a father.

John 8:44 says that the devil is the father of lies, and nothing more.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

Of course your argument is that God is the cause of all things, even evil. That God created evil and does evil so that his will can be accomplished. But scripture is clear there is no darkness in God. Darkness is the lack of God. Where the light is not, there is darkness. Where good is not, there is evil. Evil and darkness only exist when God is not present. So how can there be a lack of the eternal and omnicient God? (big snip) God didn't create evil. He allowed love to exist by giving us true free will. If we choose to do evil with our will, then that is our choice. God did't make you choose that.

I think you're missing the distinction I made between evil and sin. I'm not calling God evil in the sense that you mean, of course he's not. I'm saying that suffering in this world is caused by God, and not by an evil angel. Often this suffering is executed by sinful men, but God is always in control. If we're “the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28), then this suffering will always work out for good.

I quoted 9 examples that clearly and unambiguously state this, and the only one you got back to me about was Joseph. I want to hear how you rationalise the other 8.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,02:57)

God is only limited by our free will. When Joseph was enslaved, God used that situation for good. If free wills had chosen different, God still could have blessed Joseph. Why? Because Joseph had chosen to follow God, no matter what the cost.

No, God didn't just make the most of the situation. Genesis 45 clearly says that God caused his brothers to send him into Egypt, thought they were acting of their own free will:

Quote

5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. . 7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

God wasn't just passively involved – it specifically says three times that God sent Joseph into Egypt. God caused Job's suffering, plain and simple. But look how much good came as a direct result

Satan had nothing to do with it.

Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
You don't understand . The fall of Satan from heaven did not happen in the distant past. He has had access rights to heaven where he acted as the accuser of the brethren, as described in Job, but also to earth, where he had his kingdom, as he confirmed in Job. What happens in Revelation is that he and his angels are cast to earth ONLY with Satan losing those access rights. So the timing is concurrent with events in Revelation.

The constellation alignment is well shown in another site-The Watchman [Greg Killian]in the section on celstial events.
The symbolism changes [as is not unusual in the cryptic crossword like Revelation]when the dragon persecutes the woman to a description of Satan harrassing Israel who brings forth the Son of Man.

The scarlet beast is not identified as symbolic of kings but the ten horns and 7 heads identify a place [Rome] and kings. The beast is identified as Satan [with v 8 compared to Ch 20.v 2-3] who comes to live in one of the kings and become the BEAST. This should not surprise us as it says he entered Judas at the last supper. Likewise he entered the serpent and brought a curse on serpents in Genesis.

The opinions of Job or the writers of Job do not compare with the authority of the word of God as you know.

For the use of stars to symbolise angels look at Rev 9. v1-2. Could the star hold a key or was it the angel all along?

[Sammo]

Hi t8,

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,20:13)

How many times do you want me to quote Revelation 12:7 7″And there was war in heaven ,Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon.And the dragon and his angels waged war and they were not strong enough and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.And the great dragon ,the serpent of old who is called the devil and satan ,who deceives the whole world,he was thrown down to the earth and his angels thrown down with him..” What about Revelation 12:4 as Nick quoted. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.

Thank you! Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's the first time you've mentioned where the 1/3 of angels comes from.

However, you've still got a lot of explaining to do:

• How do you know that stars represent angels?
• If you take the stars as symbolic, then why do you take the dragon literally?
• Revelation describes events that post-date John (Revelation 1:1). How can this be describing the fall of Satan when that's supposed to have happened thousands of years ago, before the events in Genesis 3?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,20:13)

You see that with the parable of the wheat and tares. Jesus disciples asked for it in plain language and got it. Even in Revelation, some of the symbols are decoded for us.

They sure are. Please see the comments I made about seven-headed, ten-horned beasts in my post to Nick. It's quite clear.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,20:13)

But a reader also needs to decern between symbol and real language. E.g., Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, Is this verse using symbols?

I guess the distinction is, that this verse isn't in the middle of a vision…

Cheers,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 29 2004,20:33)

For the use of stars to symbolise angels look at Rev 9. v1-2. Could the star hold a key or was it the angel all along?

Yeah – you're right to say that stars sometimes represent angels. There's Revelation 1:20 too, which is quite clear.

However, convince me that the stars in Revelation 12 are angels – as there's a different number of stars to Revelation 1.

I'll get back to you about the rest of your posts, hopefully by tomorrow, but possibly not for a couple of days. In case I'm not round for a while, hope you have a good weekend.

Sam

ps – you must keep very busy on here!

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
The dragon is not literal. It is a symbol of Satan who is.

Well if the literal stars were thrown to what would happen to the earth. It has to be a symbol of the angels.
Have a good one yourself. I do love a challenge

[Proclaimer]

Hi Sammo,

I will reply to your post later.

But for now I still say that you are the one who has to prove that the Devil doesn't exist. If scripture speaks plainly of him as existing as a person, then you have to say why scripture is incorrect or that all instances of him being a person are only symbolic of an attribute. You have attempted this, but in my opinion your theology failed miserably. I could take your reasoning and de-personify God, Michael or anyone. It's up to you who you decide to remove and who you keep with your method. I cannot go with that.

So far you have ignored the language construction that includes articles before Devil or Satan and you ignore the context of verses that talk about a person. E.g. The Devil and HIS angels, Michael and HIS angels. This is a serious error to me. But I am open to being wrong. But you haven't even got close to even convincing me that your way is a possibility. It's not as if I am not reasonable (able to reason).

What about a brief post that convinces me that when the bible says THE Devil or THE Satan, that it is not talking about a person. Tell me why when the article is used with others, e.g. the Jesus, the God etc (meaning a person) that this should not apply to the Devil. Why is that particular one exempt? Seems strange.

toodle doo for now.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Hebrews 2 14 says in my bible.[NASB]
“Since the the children share in flesh and blood He himself[Jesus] likewise also took part of the same so that through death He might RENDER POWERLESS HIM,WHO HAD THE POWER OF DEATH,THAT IS THE DEVIL..” A lot different to your version.
You agree the bible says satan is the father of lies..and a liar and a murderer it says .. but do not accept he exists!! Fancy footwork indeed.

[Anonymous]

hey sam,

Quote

The serpent was just an animal, part of God's “very good” creation (Genesis 1:31), though given the power of speech like Balaam's ass (Numbers 22)

how is it that god's “very good” creation could lie?

cheers,

nate.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
You ask about sinning after we are saved well Jesus gave us a clear answer to that in 1 Jn 1.8-2.1.
'We have an intercessor” -Jesus.

Remember Jesus said in Jn 13.10.
“The man who has bathed [been baptised]has no need to wash[except his feet]-[the daily asking of forgiveness from the Father as in the Our Father].He is entirely cleansed…”

James 5. 14-15 is also an option because as the Psalms say sometimes we sin without knowing it.
Prayer in tongues also helps if we are unsure of our needs as spoken of in Jude 20 and Rom 8 .26.

We are in Jesus . God's love for Jesus is incomprehensible .

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
You quote 2 cor 12 and the 'super apostles' as evidence of human opposition that excludes the work of Satan. But go back a few verses and you will see Paul talking about his thorn in the flesh ” an angel of Satan sent to beat me and keep me from getting proud”
Compare them Numbers 33.55 and Eze 28.24 and you may realise that these super apostles were the thorn and Satan certainly was involved in Paul's view.

[NickHassan]

Also Sammo in the start of the discussion by Paul of those super apostles he said 11.3
” My fear is that ,just as the serpent seduced Eve by his cunning , your thoughts may be corrupted and you may fall away from your sincere and complete devotion to Christ”
and
v14″ And little wonder. For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Irt comes as no wonder that his ministers disguise themselves as ministers of the justice of God.”

Your argument that Satan does not exist is not with us but with Paul
And Peter
And John
And Jesus. good luck

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Your scripture quote of 1Chr 21 1. “Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel” and the corresponding scripture from Samuel where God allowed it is exactly what I wrote about.

God allows but Satan is the agent. God used those parallel verses to demonstrate this truth.

[Author]

Posts