Fallen angels

[NickHassan]

OK nate,
I don't know what your motive is and I hope it doesn't get me into trouble!
Woman was made from Man to be his partner but it seems at that stage he had no responsibility for her[Gen 2]. She disobeyed first. He followed her rather than God. God rebuked the serpent and the woman and punished them with curses[Gen 3]. He then said that the man was to be the master of his wife.[Gen 3.16]. God did not rebuke Adam directly though their close relationship was damaged it seems. God expelled them both from the Garden.
The rest of scripture seems to imply that the real blame was with Adam who walked with God and deeply disappointed Him with his deceit. We are fortunate his punishment was not as severe as was given to the angels who disobeyed.
God's rejection of man is eternal but He sent us a lifeline by sending His Son to die for us so that those who are reborn into Him are again restored to full close relationship with Him forever.
OK. What is the gist of your question?

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,22:29)

I have no intention to “prove” you wrong as you are in a defensive role and not open to learning. If you believe the sky is pink then so be it.

Please respond to my posts, really please. Time and time again I ask you and t8 direct questions and time and time again you both ignore them completely.

If you've got good answers to my questions, or good responses to the points I raise, then why don't you share them?

Please, this is getting silly.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,22:29)

We are already higher than the angels if we are in Jesus [cf Heb 2.6-7 and Coll 3.1-4.] You say Jesus is real because He had a physical body but nothing without a Physical body seems real to you-but God is Spirit?

Yes, but we're told that “God is a spirit”. Therefore God is a spirit. I keep on and on and on asking you to show me where we're told that the devil is an evil angel fallen from heaven. I keep on and on and on waiting.

Sam

[Sammo]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

Sammo, you didn't explain the obvious from the following scriptures. 1) He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 3) Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back

I'll discuss Revelation in a seperate post.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

2) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

I've already said that Paul meant a human adversary. Of course he's going to say “himself” right afterwards.

That Paul meant a human adversary is crystal clear from the context:

Quote

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Clearly, Paul was concerned about human false apostles. He wasn't warning the Corinthians about “Satan”. Human opposition a theme of Paul's all the way through 2nd Corinthians. This is what he goes on to say in chapter 12:

Quote

22 ¶ Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I. 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Is Paul concerned about Satan here? No! Paul is concerned about human opposition, false apostles undermining Paul's influence. I had already said this, and you ignored me.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

You ignore all references to Satan as a person which is prolific in scripture.

That's simply not true.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

Why for example should Michael exist but not Satan. Check out the 3rd verse I quoted above. It says the dragon and HIS angels and Michael and HIS angels. Again, why is Michael a person and the Dragon not? Why is the language construction the same, but you interpret each one differently? Because you are not being consistent Sammo. You are changing scripture to suit your doctrine. Or perhaps you also deny that Michael exists. Not sure about your belief here.[/quote I believe that Michael exists, and there's no inconsistency. I'll show that the passages in Revelationa re inescapably syymbolic in a seperate post. t8,Sep. wrote: 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

I had already dealt with this before you posted it. Satan here is a human adversary.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Not only are the personal references in bold obvious, but words like 'liar', and 'speaks', only adds to the fact that these verses are referring to a person.

I have already said, at least twice, actually probably three or four times, that John 8:44 describes a personification of sin. Of course the sentence is written as though it describes a person. Personification is not unique to sin and the devil.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

When you read the scriptures about Satan, the Devil and the Dragon, it is referring to a person in it's language construction. Yes devil and satan can also be used as adjectives just as God/god(theos) and Eloyhim/eloyhim can, but like I said the adjective is missing the article, and the article is used to define the word as a noun/name.

Personification.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

Your logic is not only inconsistent with this, but you think the onus is on us to prove that the Devil exists when it is you who needs to prove that he doesn't. Why do I say this. It is simple.

Sure is. I've directly asked you several times to justify these four beliefs in the devil:

• That the devil is an Angel
• That the devil took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity.
• That the Devil fell from heaven
• That Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

You went to the scriptural proof cupboard, and boy was it bare. Prove me wrong, t8, prove me wrong

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

Your evidence so far is clearly not enough to convince any true follower of God and truth. It may shake someone weak in faith or even someone who wants somebody else to do their thinking. But for many who love truth, I do not think your words will have any impact. I am not insulting you, rather I am telling you the truth.

t8, you systematically ignore my posts, and then you say that the evidence for my faith is weak. I ask you direct questions, and you ignore them, time and time again.

For instance, I think this is the FIFTH time that I've directly asked you to provide evidence that “the devil took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity”. Do you ever intend to get back to me on that?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 27 2004,02:43)

I have no problem if you can do that because I am not here to say I am right. I am here to learn truth and enjoy light from God emanating from his people.

Amen to that, at least

God bless,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi guys

The aim of this post is to show that the passages in Revelation that mention the devil are necessarily symbolic, absolutely inescapably so.

I don't pretend to know the entire meaning of the book. Nonetheless I am certain that Revelation is to be interpreted symbolically, and I'm going to present but the tip of the iceberg of the evidence.

Right at the start of the book, in chapter 1, we read this description of Jesus:

Quote

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

We read in verse 16 that Jesus had a “sharp twoedged sword” coming out of his mouth. Does this mean that Jesus literally has a sword coming out of his mouth? No – all doubt that the sword is figurative is removed several verses later:

Quote

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

The stars and the candlesticks represent the seven churches and their angels, beyond all room for doubt. The vision is not literal.

Then in chapter 4, we read another description of Jesus:

Quote

6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Is Jesus literally a slain lamb with seven horns and seven eyes? Clearly this is not a literal vision.

If you want to say that it is literal, then you'll have to explain how it completely contradicts the description of Jesus in chapter 1, which certainly makes no mention of a slain lamb with seven horns and seven eyes.

Then in chapter 6, we find that after the fifth seal was opened:

Quote

13 The stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Can this be literal? The stars of heaven are many times larger than the earth. Clearly this is not a literal vision.

Coming to chapter 12, this is the entire passage:

Quote

1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

OK – so is this literal? We're told in verse 1 of a “woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”.

• Can a woman be literally clothed with the sun?
• Can a woman literally have the moon under her feet?
• Can a woman literally have 12 stars on her head?

Alternative: the sun, moon and stars are symbolic, as they are elsewhere in scripture, in Joseph's dream for example (Genesis 37:9). There is absolutely no way that this vision can be literal.

The great dragon is described as “having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads”. Is this literal? There's a similar beast in chapter 17:

Quote

1 ¶ And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: . 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. . 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. . 12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. . 15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. . 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The picture is a woman sitting on a red beast with seven heads and ten horns, remarkably similar to the dragon in chapter 12. Now is this vision literal, or symbolic? Clearly, the passage itself identifies it as symbolic:

• The seven heads represent seven mountains (v9)
• The ten horns represent ten kings (v12)
• The waters represent peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues (v15)
• The woman represents a city (v18)

How else can we read this chapter? Clearly the vision is not literal.

Coming back to chapter 12, we see amazing similarities between the dragon of chapter 12 and the beast of chapter 17. If the beast of chapter 17 is clearly symbolic, then what does this tell us about the dragon of chapter 12? The dragon is not literal.

There's also a remarkably similar picture in chapter 13:

Quote

1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

This is a direct reference to Daniel's vision in chapter 7:

Quote

1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. 5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. 6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

The beast in Revelation 13 is made up of all the creatures in Daniel 7, even down to the number of heads – count them up for yourself. If there is a link between Revelation and Daniel, then is Daniel symbolic? Because surely if Daniel is symbolic, then Revelation must be symbolic too.

Yes, Daniel is symbolic. This is what it says later on in Daniel 7:

Quote

17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

Beyond all scope for argument, the four creatures are symbolic. They represent kings. Daniel 7 is symbolic. So is Revelation 13. So is Revelation 12. So is all of Revelation.

This is the main passage in question:

Quote

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

There is no literal heaven here, and there is no literal dragon. The Devil and Satan aren't literal either. In the light of all of the above, I hope that's plain now.

The entire book of Revelation is symbolic, inescapably so, inescapably so at every possible turn.

If you disagree, DON'T gloss over my post. Go through it, point by point, and spell out how you can prove that the book of Revelation is literal. Please don't just gloss over my post. Please go through it point by point. Please.

God bless you all,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Jn 4.24
“GOD IS SPIRIT and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth” it does not say “a spirit”

I have no problem with the symbolism of Revelation. But John “SAW” these visions so they were literal to him and he recorded what he saw for our benefit.
To try to then enshoud it all in mystery and include Satan is mischievous manipulation of the Word to protect mans doctrine.

[Sammo]

Hi everyone

Here are two of t8's longstanding claims…

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2004,18:14)

Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

From Satan comes adversity.

…although really I've talked about them more to Nick. Since Nick completely ignored every point I raised on the issue, I'm going to collate my views and post them here. Some of this is going to be a straight cut and paste of otherwise ignored material.

The question is: is Satan the cause of all evil, suffering and adversity, or is God?

Firstly there's a distinction to be made between evil, as in bad things that happen in the world, and sin, as in disobedience to God.

I believe that God is in charge of events in the world, and that includes the bad things as well.

Isaiah 45

Quote

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It makes no difference if you want to change “evil” here to “woe” (NASB) – it's not like woe is a happy thing, and the point in question is whether or not the devil is responsible for all suffering in the world. Clearly Isaiah 45:7 says that evil, or woe, or whatever you want to call it, comes from God.

It's not a bad thing that sometimes God sends trying times our way – all the great characters of the Bible went through tough times and came out all the better for it, even Jesus (Hebrews 5:8).

Joseph

Joseph is a great example of God working through what seem to be terrible events. When his brothers sold him into Egypt, they really did mean evil, but God was in control all along to bring about a greater good, as we read in Genesis 45:

Quote

4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. 5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. 7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Joseph suffered immensely by being sold into Egypt, almost beyond our comprehension. Yet God brought all that suffering to pass out of love, because “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28), and “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Joseph came out a better man, and was the means God used to save his entire nation.

Hannah

We're told of Hannah in 1 Samuel 1:

Quote

5 But unto Hannah he gave a worthy portion; for he loved Hannah: but the LORD had shut up her womb. 6 And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the LORD had shut up her womb.

Who had shut up Hannah's womb? Who had caused Hannah's suffering? Did it all work out for good in the end? Is Satan the person behind all evil?

Job

When Job loses his family and possessions, he says in Job 1:

Quote

21 Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

Job attributes his suffering to God.

In the next chapter he says:

Quote

10 Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job attributes the evil in his life to the hand of God.

Then right at the end of the book – who had brought evil upon Job?

Quote

11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

A more direct statement about the cause of Job's suffering would be impossible to make.

Amos 3

Quote

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

If there is evil in a city, hath not the LORD done it? Kind of speaks for itself, really.

2 Chronicles 15

t8 says that all adversity comes from Satan. This is what 2 Chronicles 15 says:

Quote

6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.

God, not Satan, is responsible for adversity here.

Daniel 4

Quote

17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

God, not Satan is in control of the world and its affairs. When a wicked king/president/ruler reigns, it's God at work – not Satan. God often works through wicked men to bring about his purpose, for instance:

• Pharaoh's hard-heartedness resulted in the dramatic deliverence of Israel,
• Nebuchadnezzar was used to judge Judah
  ,
• Hitler resulted in the return of the Jews to Israel etc.

We can be sure that George Bush, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, the Pope and Vladimir Putin etc. are all being used to shape the events of the world to God's plan.

Therefore, if God is in control, then the terrible things that these people do and have done is caused by God, and not by Satan. Think about that. The entire world has been to war twice in just the last 100 years to bring about the return of the Jews to Israel. God's not the one who pulls the trigger – but rest assured that everything is under his omnipotent control. You don't believe that, if you believe in Satan.

Assyria

This is an extract from Isaiah 10:

Quote

5 ¶ O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. 6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. 7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. 8 For he saith, Are not my princes altogether kings? 9 Is not Calno as Carchemish? is not Hamath as Arpad? is not Samaria as Damascus? 10 As my hand hath found the kingdoms of the idols, and whose graven images did excel them of Jerusalem and of Samaria; 11 Shall I not, as I have done unto Samaria and her idols, so do to Jerusalem and her idols? 12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

Assyria was used to judge Jerusalem. However, Carchemish, Arpad and Samaria all got destroyed as well. Who caused all this suffering? Satan?

This is another perfect example of how God can use the wicked intentions of men to carry out his purpose.

Hebrews 12

So what about suffering in our lives? God is in control of this too, for our own good:

Quote

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye illegitimate, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

God is in control of suffering in our lives too – this is the only way that our characters can be developed, and it all works out for good in the end. Satan simply has nothing to do with it.

Conclusion

Satan does not cause suffering in the world.

I've just listed 9 examples where suffering is clearly and unambiguously attributed to God.

I'm still waiting for a single quote that attributes suffering to Satan. Please, fill me in.

Just where is Satan in all of this? He simply doesn't even enter the equation. When we suffer in our lives, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with an evil being seeking our destruction – in fact the opposite couldn't be more true. Suffering is all about a righteous being seeking our salvation. God is in complete control of our lives, moulding us like a potter (eg Jeremiah 18), both for our own good, and for his glory.

And thank God that he is in control, because we can be sure that “all things work together for good” – even the bad things!

t8, you made these statements:

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2004,18:14)

Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

From Satan comes adversity.

Do you stand by them? If you do, then please respond to this post.

Please don't just gloss over my points, but deal with each of the nine examples and show me how Satan, and not God, was responsible for the evil and suffering in each case.

Of course, anyone else's comments are welcome too.

Cheers,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Sadly what is crystal clear to you is confusion to others.You have made a lot of bald statements about angels. You say the wages of sin are death and apply that to the angels. But death comes through the law and the law was given to men and not angels so your inferences are wrong.

To use satan as an adjective is only possible if there is a comparative being. If I say you are a fox it only makes sense if we both know what a real fox is. The noun Satan occurs over 50 times in the bible -are you suggesting every time it relates to a different evil person without reference to any being? bizarre.

Were all the refences to Satan and his kingdom and evil spirits by Jesus [eg Lk 11 17ff] all figurative about an evil man. Did my Master waste His words? We know from Job that Satan indeed is responsible for illnesses and disasters of every kind and Jesus demonstrated that truth constantly.

The OT is full of symbolism -do you not believe it despite that? Who decides which bits of the bible should be believed as I am sure not many would agree you should?

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,19:16)

Jn 4.24 “GOD IS SPIRIT and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth” it does not say “a spirit”

I quoted the KJV of John 4:24, big deal.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2004,19:16)

I have no problem with the symbolism of Revelation. But John “SAW” these visions so they were literal to him and he recorded what he saw for our benefit. To try to then enshoud it all in mystery and include Satan is mischievous manipulation of the Word to protect mans doctrine.

John saw a lot of things. There is no literal seven-headed, ten-horned red dragon, anywhere in the entire universe. Neither is there a literal Devil.

John enshrouds all this in mystery, not me. He even uses that exact same word. Honestly, is it not obvious?

You still haven't got back to me on a single point that I've raised recently. I hope you intend to?

God bless
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
I note you quote a lot from Job. Certainly Job attributed his sufferings to God-he may not even have known anything about Satan. He was right in a way because as you say God has the ultimate choice in all matters. But anyone reading the frist few chapters of Job would realise that God gave permission for Satan, as His agent, to test Job.
God created the Universe did he not. well yes He did but we know from Hebrews 1that Jesus was his agent and did the work of creation.
Jesus went about doing good and setting free all who had fallen under Satan's power. No problem.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
So what is symbolic or not literal is not true?? So Satan and the evil angels who warred with Michael were not real. So Michael is not real ?

You do not seem to be able to tackle anything not tangible and physical so Revelation is a complete mystery to you. It should not be as it too is true and has meaning. If someone sees a vision of stars crashing to earth well that is how it would look to the person seeing the event if the earth was to undergo a polar shift. We are limited by our experience and our senses even in vision.

[Anonymous]

hey nick,

Quote

OK. What is the gist of your question?

the gist of my question was that if sin entered the world through adam then the serpent and the woman were guiltless…

if this is the case, then we can't impute the original sin to eve either, because she was lied to by the serpent.

but if the serpent was the source of original sin (the temptor), what are the implications?

cheers,

nate.

[Anonymous]

whoops

Quote

if this is the case, then we can't impute the original sin to eve either, because she was lied to by the serpent.

i mean “if this isn't the case…

[NickHassan]

Hi Nate,
God judged all of them and they all [and we] suffered as a consequence. Man and woman are responsible for their own decisions and actions whether or not they were tempted .

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
So you say Satan in Job was a human acquaintance who was jealous of him.
What a man. He arranged for fire from heaven to destroy Job's flocks. Somehow the Sabeans, and also then the Chaldeans mind you were arranged to attack and kill his animals and servants. He got the wind to rise and cause his house to fall down. He caused Job to break out in boils -what a man!
More skills and abililities than most men have .

Or perhaps it was Satan after all

[Proclaimer]

Hi Sammo,

Hebrews 6:1-2
Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

I can't see that belief in the Devil being an angel as an elementary teaching, not in this verse at least. I am also not sure that we are required to believe that in order to have true faith in God. Or maybe it is part of the eternal judgment part?

But what is clear is that we have an enemy who is the Father of Lies. He is known as the tempter (not temptation) and he is the one who sowed the tares. He is the one who tempted Eve and will be bound for 1000 years during the millenial reign. He also has authority over his angels, just as Michael does over his.

In fact the whole reason that Jesus came to this earth was to destroy the works of this enemy. So to say that we do not have a real enemy in the first place does question why Jesus came to this world to begin with. If Jesus came only to conquer human nature then his teachings are no different to other religions who try to tame our nature. No Jesus came to detroy the one who has the power of death. Jesus took the keys of Death and Hades from him and he detroyed HIS WORKS in all those who choose to follow him. He even embarrased the powers of darkness which would include the Prince of Darkness. But you say that Satan is a work. NO he is a worker my friend.

You have said many times that this enemy is not a person or that he doesn't exist as a living being. But this so-called non-existant enemy you talk of, tempted Jesus for 40 days and he appeared before God on ocassion in order to put certain men to the test.

You then you say that this enemy is human adversary, when scripture clearly teaches that these evil attributes have a father. People create evil attributes rather than evil attributes creating people. Yes people can be manipulated by evil, but evil comes from the heart of men and angel. In other words lust doesn't appear out of nowhere and then become personified in order to be understood. No it is committed or expressed by a being first, then it becomes evident. God himself does not commit evil. All his ways are just.

Just as we have goodness, light and love, we know that God is the Father of these things. He is Love. He is Light. He is the only good. He exists and he shines who he is. We recieve the attributes of his character and like a true image, it should become part of our character so that we become like him and are transformed into the image of his son who is his image.

God is the originator. Love just didn't appear out of nowhere and then became personified as God. No. God demonstrates his love to us that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Sammo, your doctrine is not scriptural nor even logical. All things exist because they are expressed by someone. Love exists for us because God expresses it.

The Empire State Building exists because some people built it. Art exists because there are living things who can create or rearrange things. All thing exist because of somebody. In other words effect has a cause. All things that are created are created by someone.

As it is written: Hebrews 3:4
For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.

or

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.

In both these cases the house and goodness exist because of God who exists. So nothing would exist if God didn't exist.

But what about evil. Is God the god of evil? Does evil exist because God is evil?

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

or

1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

&

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”[ 4:6 Gen. 1:3] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

So God is light and he shines light into us. God doesn't do evil or express evil. He is perfect and righteous.

So Sammo, as you can see, lives express characterisitics, not the other way round. All things exist because of someone.

Of course your argument is that God is the cause of all things, even evil. That God created evil and does evil so that his will can be accomplished. But scripture is clear there is no darkness in God. Darkness is the lack of God. Where the light is not, there is darkness. Where good is not, there is evil. Evil and darkness only exist when God is not present. So how can there be a lack of the eternal and omnicient God?

Simple. God gifted his beings with free will. In order for true free will, God needs to give a choice. Him or not him. That is the only real choice in life.

Now lets just imagine that your teaching became the accepted truth. Then would that not open the door to others saying, “that even God doesn't exist”. “For he too is not an actual person, but an attribute.”

The thing is Sammo, you need to think about your doctrine and it's fruit. So far it doesn't line up with scripture and it is also illogical when you think about it.

E.g. Would this website or any of the writings exist if we didn't exist? Well maybe it would if someone else created it and wrote the post contained within. But this site could not exist if it were not for someone. And so it is that evil exists because of someone and that someone is not God, but the enemy.

The enemy is only the enemy because God allowed free will to choose NOT him, so that we would have true free will and not be a race of robots. But God didn't force anyone to sin or to lie or murder. God didn't force Satan to be what he is. No God allowed it. Free will did the rest. But free will must exist in order for true love to exist. If we cannot choose to love then it is not love and this is why free will exists.

God didn't create evil. He allowed love to exist by giving us true free will. If we choose to do evil with our will, then that is our choice. God did't make you choose that.

Anyway as I said in another post Sammo. The onus is on you to prove that the Devil doesn't exist because scripture says that he does exist. So far your explanations are seriously lacking.

I will finish with the following:

God allows evil, he didn't create it and nor does he commit evil in order to fulfill his will. No he allows evil and no matter what evil is committed, God can turn it around because light shimes through darkness. So in this God shows that he is greater than evil and darkness.

God is only limited by our free will. When Joseph was enslaved, God used that situation for good. If free wills had chosen different, God still could have blessed Joseph. Why? Because Joseph had chosen to follow God, no matter what the cost.

So this raises the question, would evil exist if God didn't exist. No it would not. How could the lack of good exist if goodness weren't there first. A counterfeit $10.00 note exists because a real $10.00 notes exist. Have you seen a $17.00 counterfiet note?

So is God responsible for evil then. Far from it. He is responsible for giving free will. What we do with our will is up to us. E.g. If I give you a knife with good intentions, am I a murderer if you kill someone?

Free will is aptly nam
ed. We are responsible for our own decisions. If God didn't give us a choice it wouldn't be free will and we would not be able to truly love. Love would not be a choice but a program that we obey.

To read a writing on this subject try the following page:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer15.htm

Or try the following discussion:
http://heaven.net.nz/cgi-bin….=1;t=19

[Proclaimer]

BTW Sammo,

You say that you have asked the same question 5 times. But I gave you scripture as your answer multiple times. It is because you do not understand scripture that you keep asking the same thing.

[Anonymous]

hey nick,

Quote

God judged all of them and they all [and we] suffered as a consequence. Man and woman are responsible for their own decisions and actions whether or not they were tempted.

ah, but what of the temptor? if “sin entered the world through adam” ie if sin originates from adam, are eve and the serpent guiltless? was eve's action not a sin? was the serpent just a symbol of adam or eve's carnal nature?

the point is that satan is described as the father of lies. if satan is just a metaphor, then the serpent must be a metaphor also (unless there is another alternative which escapes me at the moment), because the serpent (as the first recorded liar) was the father of lies… therefore, the serpent was either a) a metaphor, b) satan or c) a lying talking snake… and i think that a) can at least be ruled out, considering the consequences…

cheers,

nate.

[NickHassan]

Hi Nate,
It has got to be Satan who is described as “The Serpent OF OLD” in Revelation. Jesus said Satan was a liar “FROM THE BEGINNING”

We know Satan had visiting rights to earth from Job and earth was his kingdom. He is described as prince of the power of the air in Eph 2.2

Talking about princes Michael is called “your prince”, “a great prince” and “one of the chief princes” in Daniel ,which also mentions Gabriel. Michael is also called an archangel in Jude and he is described as having angels to fight with him in Rev 12.7. Gabriel fought against the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece also is mentioned.

Jesus, the Son of God, is also called “The Prince” twice[Acts 5.31,Dan9 25], “the Prince of Life”[Acts 3.15],the “Prince of princes”[Dan 8.25]. He was always greater than the angels who worship Him as we know from Hebrews 1. He was the first born Son but were there other lesser sons?

Surely the Archangels or princes are the sons of God or sons of heaven as mentioned in Gen 6 and Job1.6 and 2.1. They are different as they have names and seem to have greater responsibility and access to God in heaven. Since Satan is among them in Job surely he also was a prince, a son of god or archangel before he rebelled and took the prince of persia and other angels with him in the rebellion.

The book of Enoch seems to develop this theme too.What are your thoughts?

[Sammo]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 28 2004,03:07)

You say that you have asked the same question 5 times. But I gave you scripture as your answer multiple times. It is because you do not understand scripture that you keep asking the same thing.

LOL, show me where!

Quote (Me @ Sep. 27 2004,19:04)

For instance, I think this is the FIFTH time that I've directly asked you to provide evidence that “the devil took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity”. Do you ever intend to get back to me on that?

Now it's SIX

I'll get back to you on the rest of your post.

Hope it's sunny where you are too,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
God is wonderful the way He challenges our understanding using imagery. This is because it can convey several messages and greater depth of meaning.

Jesus is the Logos, the Word and He maintains the universe through the power of the word. Jesus is also the Lamb of God so no problem with the symbolism of the Lamb as Jesus in Revelation. The word of God is like a two edged sword we are told in Hebrews so the presentation of Jesus with a sword coming out of his mouth in Revelation should not surprise us as it is consistent with all these truths.Jesus is real and is presented in these images in Scripture.

But Satan is also represented in imagery in Revelation. He is presented as a dragon and identified as Satan . If Jesus then is real though represented in imagery what is different about Satan? God is not inconsistent or ever want to cause confusion so if one is reak then both are real. The confusion is in your dogma my friend.

[Author]

Posts