Fallen angels

[Sammo]

Hi t8,

Thanks for your post.

Can I ask you to break your evidence down? This will make it easier to keep track of exactly what we're discussing. I'm going to suggest breaking your evidence into the following statements you've made about the devil…

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,16:49)

He is an Angel

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,16:49)

He took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity.

…and I'm not sure if you've specifically said this, but

Quote

The Devil fell from heaven

I think that would be a good start, and should hopefully lead to quite a well-defined discussion.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,17:42)

If you read 'slanderer' where the word 'devil' is, it would render these scriptures unreadable.

If “slanderer” were personified, I don't think it would.

Cheers,
Sam

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Sammo @ Sep. 24 2004,13:02)

If “slanderer” were personified, I don't think it would.

Slanderer means a person does it not?
Who was the first to slander? Who was the first to lie? Who was the first to murder? Who was the first to sin? Someone had to be. Someone had to be the Father (originator) of such things.

Yes break the scriptures down using the word devil as a person and then try without it. One makes sense the other doesn't. Same could be said about the word angel in those verses. Even though you believe angels exist, try taking the word angel to mean an adjective and you get the same problem.

BTW I made alterations to my last post while you were posting. So I give you the point again.

If you read 'slanderer' where the word 'devil' is, it would render these scriptures unreadable. Also I am sure that the arguments you will make in support of there being no Devil could just as easily be made for angels too. Notice that all the scriptures above also references angels. So why just de-personalise the Devil, but not angels. I am suspicious on that note alone.
…….
Also attributes come from people not the other way round. From Satan comes adversity. From the Divine comes divine nature. From the Light comes light. From The Father of lies comes lies. From the wicked comes wickedness. From the righteous come righteousness.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
I cannot prove to you the existence of the Devil-but God could though that way would not be preferable.

The reason I cannot is that you ears seem to be stopped full of denominational rationalisations and other lies-I mean no personal offense.

At every turn you offer your church's teachings as if they offer freedom and joy. You would suggest these are of more value than the gift of God's Spirit.

Sorry but I prefer God's gift that the bondage and blindness that denominations offer.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Sammo, hope you're well.
I haven't read all of this thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned. You believe in the cause and effect principle right? If God is the ultimate source of all that is good, what is evil's source? It has to have one doesn't it?
just wondering.

t8, I will answer your posts tonight (hopefully).

[Sammo]

Hi t8, hope your weekend's going well.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

Quote (Sammo @ Sep. 24 2004,13:02) If “slanderer” were personified, I don't think it would. Slanderer means a person does it not?

Sorry – my mistake. I meant to say “if slanderer were a personification”, which is quite different.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

Who was the first to slander? Who was the first to lie? Who was the first to murder? Who was the first to sin? Someone had to be. Someone had to be the Father (originator) of such things.

I'd say that the first to sin was Adam, not the devil – Romans 5:

Quote

12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Paul says that “by man came death” in 1st Corinthians 15 as well.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

Yes break the scriptures down using the word devil as a person and then try without it. One makes sense the other doesn't. Same could be said about the word angel in those verses. Even though you believe angels exist, try taking the word angel to mean an adjective and you get the same problem.

I guess one key difference would be that angels get described in bodily form – find me a verse like this (Joshua 5) for the devil:

Quote

13  And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

If you read 'slanderer' where the word 'devil' is, it would render these scriptures unreadable.

I disagree with that.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,18:16)

Also attributes come from people not the other way round. From Satan comes adversity. From the Divine comes divine nature. From the Light comes light. From The Father of lies comes lies. From the wicked comes wickedness. From the righteous come righteousness.

Actually, from God comes adversity, like it says in 2 Chronicles 15:

Quote

6  And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.

But really, I'm much more interested in the scriptural evidence for these:

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,16:49)

He is an Angel

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 23 2004,16:49)

He took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity.

Quote

The Devil fell from heaven

And since you haven't responed to these yet, I'll add another:

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 22 2004,18:14)

Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

Good luck

Cheers,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2004,19:02)

I cannot prove to you the existence of the Devil-but God could though that way would not be preferable.

Well, what do you want me to say? Either it's in the Bible or it isn't.

This is what I've asked for from t8:

• Evidence that the devil is an Angel
• Evidence that the devil took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity.
• Evidence that the Devil fell from heaven
• Evidence that Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

Either you can prove these from the Bible or you can't, and if you can, then I'll shut up. Otherwise, tell me which one of us is on the shaky ground?

God bless,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Is 1:18, hope your day's going ok.

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 23 2004,19:25)

haven't read all of this thread so forgive me if this has been mentioned. You believe in the cause and effect principle right? If God is the ultimate source of all that is good, what is evil's source? It has to have one doesn't it?

I think there's a distinction to be made between evil, as in bad things that happen in the world, and sin, as in disobedience to God.

I believe that God is in charge of events in the world, and that includes the bad things as well. For example Isaiah 45:

Quote

7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

And thank God that he is in control, because we can be sure that “all things work together for good” – even the bad things!

For instance, it was God that brought Hitler to power (eg Daniel 4:17), NOT the devil, and a direct result of that was that God's people returned to their homeland. God was in control all along.

As for sin, I believe that sin came from Adam (eg Romans 5:12). God created the potential for sin, but it was Adam that started the ball rolling.

Cheers,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Your translation of Is 45.7 is more than a little deceptive.
Mine[NASB] says
” I am the Lord.There is no other.I form the light and create the darkness.I make well being and create WOE”-not EVIL. What a difference a little tweak makes.
And that is consistent with 1Jn 1.5
“..God is light, in Him there is no darkness”

Of course we also know that God does not tempt from James 1.13 but that temptation comes from within. The lustings of the flesh leads to every known sin as shown in Gal 5.20-21 an 1Peter 2.11

But we also have an enemy clearly defined in Rev 20.2
“He seized the Dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan and chained him up for 1000 yrs”[and 12.9]who is also known as the accuser of the brethren.

Certainly the nature of this being is not clearly revealed in the OT apart from his presence with the sons of God in Job [where he said he visited earth]and his presence in heaven in Zech3 and the other hints in Isaiah and Exekiel.

But Jesus clarified the issue and revealed him as the prince of this world. He destroyed his evil works and, as Paul said, took us “out of his kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light”.

Peter, having warned us previously about our carnal desires also said “Your opponent the devil is like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” So this is a separate issue from the internal battle.

Paul in Eph 6.10[also 1 Thess 5.8] told us to put on our armour. What use is armour against an internal enemy? Surely it is to protect us from external forces?
“Put on the armour of God so that you will be able to stand against the TACTICS OF THE DEVIL. OUR BATTLE IS NOT AGAINST HUMAN FORCES BUT AGAINST THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS , THE RULERS OF THE WORLD OF DARKNESS , THE EVIL SPIRITS IN REALMS ABOVE. You must put on the armour of God if you are to resist on the evil day…”

[Proclaimer]

Amen to that Nick.

Also the following verses show that the Devil is a person who is at least in charge of his angels. So what is he himself?

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Here it says that he (Satan) led the world astray. We read about this in Eden. He led Adam and Eve away from God's instruction and they are cast out of paradise.

The thing is the Devil and his angels are not usually referred to as angels because they have left there former positions. The word angel normally refers to the 2/3 who remained faithful, the elect angels.

But they are referred to as angels in the above verses because they are angels albeit it, fallen ones.

E.g. If I said to you, you are an angel, it means that you are like perfect. We don't usually use the word to talk about the fallen ones. They are normally called demons or devils. Just as we see the Devil being referenced or devils, (those that are like him) so it is that there is one true God and many gods in his image.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

So how is it that Satan can pose as an angel of light?
Because he was once an angel of light. And in order to masquerage himself it goes without saying that he must actually exist. That is obvious to any clear thinking person.

So who was the first to sin? Was it Adam and Eve?

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

So Satan is the Father of Lies. Not Adam and we know that Satan lied to Adam and Eve and through his lies he led them astray. So Satan is the one who sowed the tares it wasn't Adam. Adam and his offspring are the victims, but they often collaborate with him.

Notice in John 8:44 that those who lie are referenced to a father. That father is not the Heavenly Father but the Father of Lies. Again, we know that Adam is not the Father of Lies. The Devil is.

You see this logic demonstrated in the Millenium. The Devil is bound 1000 years and there is a period of peace where Christ rules the earth (the sabbath millenium). But sin still exists but lies mainly dormant with no Devil to tempt. Once he is released we see once again a rebellion against God. Why? Because the tempter is watering the seed of sin in humanity. He grows the rebellion but God destroys it once and for all.

In fact God uses the Devil to collect his own. Once that work is done, they are bound up like tares and put into the fire.

As it is written in James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The Devil can only entice when men are drawn away by their own lust. But without the enticer sin is often not expressed.

[NickHassan]

Jn 8 .42ff
” ..Were God your father you would love me,for I came forth from God and am here. I did not come of My own will ,it was Him who sent Me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. The father you spring from is the DEVIL and willingly you carry out his wishes. HE BROUGHT DEATH TO MAN FROM THE BEGINNING and has never based himself on truth..”
There are sons of God in heaven and satan appears amongst them. There are Archangels like Michael in Jude. There is the Captain of the Host of the Lord. There is the angel of the Lord and living creatures covered with eyes …and there are angels who are just messengers.
We know some of these heavenly beings could have sexual relations with women from Gen 6 so the reference to us by Jesus being asexual like angels in our resurrected bodies may mean only the simple angels rather than the higher orders of being in heaven?

[NickHassan]

Hi Nate and Sam,
By Humanism I mean the worship of man.The first commandment is also the greatest and any preference of man's will rather than God's in Christianity is to rebel and worship man.
In Mt 16 Peter, influenced by Satan, was rebuking Jesus. Out of pity for Him in view of the suffering Jesus had revealed He was to undergo Peter expressed the thought
” May you be spared Master. God forbid that any such thing ever happen to you”
Turning to Peter and addressing Satan Jesus said
“…You are trying to make me trip and fall. You are not judging by God's standards but by man's”

Peter was not deliberately trying to make Jesus fall but Satan knew how to try and shake Jesus from his determined decision to do the will of the Father.

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

Your translation of Is 45.7 is more than a little deceptive. Mine[NASB] says ” I am the Lord.There is no other.I form the light and create the darkness.I make well being and create WOE”-not EVIL. What a difference a little tweak makes. And that is consistent with 1Jn 1.5 “..God is light, in Him there is no darkness”

Does changing “evil” to “woe” really make such a huge difference? It's not like woe is a happy thing, and I thought the point in question was whether or not the devil was responsible for all suffering in the world. Clearly Isaiah 45:7 says that evil, or woe, or whatever you want to call it, comes from God.

I don't think it's a bad thing that sometimes God sends trying times our way – all the great characters of the Bible went through tough times and came out all the better for it, even Jesus (Hebrews 5:8).

Joseph is a great example of God working through what seem to be terrible events. When his brothers sold him into Egypt, they really did mean evil, but God was in control all along to bring about a greater good, as we read in Genesis 45:

Quote

4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt. 5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest. 7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Joseph suffered immensely by being sold into Egypt, almost beyond our comprehension. Yet God brought all that suffering to pass out of love, because “all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” (Romans 8:28), and “whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth” (Hebrews 12:6). Joseph came out a better man, and was the means God used to save his entire nation.

So where is Satan in all of this? He simply doesn't even enter the equation. When we suffer in our lives, it has absolutely nothing at all to do with an evil being seeking our destruction – in fact the opposite couldn't be more true. Suffering is all about a righteous being seeking our salvation. God is in complete control of our lives, moulding us like a potter (eg Jeremiah 18), both for our own good, and for his glory.

There are so many quotes that illustrate that God causes “evil” – here's just one more from Amos 3:

Quote

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

Of course we also know that God does not tempt from James 1.13 but that temptation comes from within. The lustings of the flesh leads to every known sin as shown in Gal 5.20-21 an 1Peter 2.11

Absolutely, that's exactly what I'm trying to say – we lead ourselves astray. Why do we need the devil's help?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

But we also have an enemy clearly defined in Rev 20.2 “He seized the Dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil or Satan and chained him up for 1000 yrs”[and 12.9]who is also known as the accuser of the brethren.

I'm sure you're well aware that Revelation is a book of symbol – do you really think that Satan is a literal dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns? (Revelation 12:3) I don't think these verses prove any of the points I've asked evidence for.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

Certainly the nature of this being is not clearly revealed in the OT apart from his presence with the sons of God in Job [where he said he visited earth]and his presence in heaven in Zech3 and the other hints in Isaiah and Exekiel.

Exactly – have you never wondered why Satan seems to have such a quiet Old Testament? He hardly does anything at all. Yet when sin comes to be personified in the New Testament, he pops up all over the place.

I see Satan in Job as a human acquaintance of Job who was clearly jealous of him; I see the “sons of God” as a human congregation – there's no proof that they're angels.

Satan in Zechariah fits the context of human resistance to the rebuilding of the temple – I've discussed this at some length earlier in this thread.

Ezekiel 28 is manifestly talking about the king of Tyre, and Isaiah 14 is manifestly talking about the king of Babylon. I can't believe that anyone would even contemplate applying these verses to the devil without preconceptions about the devil falling from heaven. And since these verses are supposed to be what this doctrine is based on, it's quite the circular argument.

It's truly amazing the way Isaiah 14 has come to be used as proof for the existence of the devil, or that he fell from heaven. It's amazing how few people know that Lucifer was a title of Christ himself in the early church – look in the Vulgate of 2 Peter 1:19 and see for yourself. Bishops used to call themselves Lucifer the same way they took on names like “Pious” and “Innocent” – this guy for instance. Honestly, tell me that the doctrine of the devil hasn't evolved – just like the trinity, just like heaven and hell, just like immortal souls…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

Peter, having warned us previously about our carnal desires also said “Your opponent the devil is like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” So this is a separate issue from the internal battle.

Persecution's a big theme in Peter – perhaps this is talking about a real person. Apparantly the word for “adversary” in 1 Peter 5:8 is used in a legal sense, so it could be talking about persection that Christians suffered under law. There are plenty of examples of this unde
r Nero, for instance.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,16:10)

Paul in Eph 6.10[also 1 Thess 5.8] told us to put on our armour. What use is armour against an internal enemy? Surely it is to protect us from external forces?

Maybe the devil here is a personification of sin, maybe it means a human slanderer – I don't know. But there's certainly no proof in these verses of any of the four points I was after. Spell it out to me if you disagree.

Take care,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi t8,

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

Also the following verses show that the Devil is a person who is at least in charge of his angels. So what is he himself?

Well, exactly – the Bible never calls the devil an angel. That bit's inferred.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Here it says that he (Satan) led the world astray. We read about this in Eden. He led Adam and Eve away from God's instruction and they are cast out of paradise.

Sure, if you can prove that Satan is a literal being. Do you think he literally has 7 heads and 10 horns?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

The thing is the Devil and his angels are not usually referred to as angels because they have left there former positions. The word angel normally refers to the 2/3 who remained faithful, the elect angels.

Could you explain to me about the 1/3 of angels who fell? Where do we read about this?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. So how is it that Satan can pose as an angel of light? Because he was once an angel of light. And in order to masquerage himself it goes without saying that he must actually exist. That is obvious to any clear thinking person.

In the context Paul is clearly talking about human opposition in the form of false teachers. I guess by using “Satan” he singled out one guy as a particularly dangerous adversary.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

So who was the first to sin? Was it Adam and Eve?

Yes, that's how I read Romans 5:12. John 8:44 doesn't say that the devil was the first to sin – in fact, I think the devil there is sin.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

You see this logic demonstrated in the Millenium. The Devil is bound 1000 years and there is a period of peace where Christ rules the earth (the sabbath millenium). But sin still exists but lies mainly dormant with no Devil to tempt. Once he is released we see once again a rebellion against God. Why? Because the tempter is watering the seed of sin in humanity. He grows the rebellion but God destroys it once and for all.

Revelation is a symbolic book – I see the devil in Revelation as symbolic too.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 25 2004,19:52)

As it is written in James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. The Devil can only entice when men are drawn away by their own lust. But without the enticer sin is often not expressed.

I'd say that's your view, not James' – he certainly makes no mention at all of the devil, which is noteworthy in a treatise on temptation.

What do mean “without the enticer sin is often not expressed”? I was hoping “Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies” was one of the points you were going to prove.

I know I'm being annoying, and I apologise for that. But I really want you to spell it out for me how you can categorically prove the four statements you've made about the devil, because I really don't think that you can.

God bless,
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 25 2004,21:11)

We know some of these heavenly beings could have sexual relations with women from Gen 6 so the reference to us by Jesus being asexual like angels in our resurrected bodies may mean only the simple angels rather than the higher orders of being in heaven?

Well, maybe, but I doubt you'll find any scriptual evidence for that. Jesus also says that angels are immortal (Luke 20:36), and Paul says that “the wages of sin are death” (Romans 6:23). Therefore I don't think it's possible for angels to sin.

Just what kind of hope have we got, if, when “equal unto the angels”, we can still sin?

Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sam,
Lk 6 47 “Any man who desires to come to Me will hear my words and put them into practice. I will show you to whom he may be compared . He may be likened to a man,who in building a house dug deeply and laid the foundation on a rock..”
Where is your foundation laid-on a denomination's teachings?
2 Peter 1.20
“First you must understand this.There is no prophecy contained in scripture which is a personal interpretation. Prophecy has never been put forward by man's willing it.It is rather that men ,impelled by the Holy Spirit have spoken under God's influence” In my view your posts express a lot of personal opinion as you use phrases such as ” I think..” I guess..” I see..” ” could be..” ” apparently..” ” maybe..”These do not indicate understanding but conjecture.
We do not own the Word . It belongs to God and we are poor servants humbly trying to search out and share it's meaning using the tools He gives.
2 Peter 3 15″ Paul ,our beloved brother, wrote you this in the Spirit of wisdom that is his. There are certain passages in them hard to understand . The ignorant and unstable twist them [just as they do the rst of scripture ]to their own ruin”
I do not suggest that you are anything but sincere but you hide behind bland statements such as “Revelation is a book of symbolism” True but so is the whole Bible in place so do you not believe it either? You also use rationalisations such as “Personification” when a clear scripture does not fit your beliefs. Why is Jesus not just a personification of good to you then or can you pick and choose for yourself?

Job 2 was interpreted by you as Satan just being a jealous acquaitance when described discussing Job with The Lord. What about the Lord then-can you dismiss this too as some sort of good person? This is dangerous ground you are walking on.

Satan being described as having many heads and eyes seems to cause you some hilarity.It shows your ignorance, my dear young friend, to dare to mock scripture.

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

Where is your foundation laid-on a denomination's teachings?

Sharing the same beliefs as others doesn't make them wrong.

First you say:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

In my view your posts express a lot of personal opinion as you use phrases such as ” I think..” I guess..” I see..” ” could be..” ” apparently..” ” maybe..”These do not indicate understanding but conjecture.

…but then you say:

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

We do not own the Word . It belongs to God and we are poor servants humbly trying to search out and share it's meaning using the tools He gives.

I agree, 100%. So if we're “humbly trying to search out meaning”, is it really such a bad thing to say “I think”? It certainly makes absolutely no difference at all to the truth of anything I've said in the past, or will say in the future. I'm sorry if it bugs you – I can be more assertive if you like.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

I do not suggest that you are anything but sincere but you hide behind bland statements such as “Revelation is a book of symbolism” True but so is the whole Bible in place so do you not believe it either?

Not in the same way that Revelation is.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

You also use rationalisations such as “Personification” when a clear scripture does not fit your beliefs. Why is Jesus not just a personification of good to you then or can you pick and choose for yourself?

There are clear scriptures that don't fit your beliefs. Generally when I raise them, the discussion just moves on…

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

Job 2 was interpreted by you as Satan just being a jealous acquaitance when described discussing Job with The Lord. What about the Lord then-can you dismiss this too as some sort of good person? This is dangerous ground you are walking on.

There is no proof at all that the sons of God in Job are angels. Zero, nothing at all. Prove me wrong.

That Jesus is a real person is clear from scripture. He has a real physical body with which he touches and is touched. Show me examples of this for the devil.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 26 2004,19:55)

Satan being described as having many heads and eyes seems to cause you some hilarity.It shows your ignorance, my dear young friend, to dare to mock scripture.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence. I've edited my post. I certainly wasn't mocking scripture.

You didn't get back to me about 90% of my post. Do you still believe that Satan is the person behind all suffering and evil?

Do you think that Isaiah 14 should be used as evidence for the devil? Can you explain how Lucifer is a title of Christ?

Do you think that Ezekiel 28 should be used as evidence for the devil? How do you justify this?

Do you think that angels can sin? Will we still be able to sin when we are made equal to the angels?

Cheers,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
I have no intention to “prove” you wrong as you are in a defensive role and not open to learning. If you believe the sky is pink then so be it.

It is not your beliefs I am concerned about but your haphazard and random approach to the understanding of God's word.

Arguing about what is not clearly shown only inflates men's pride and does not edify.You will not accept simple explanations but prefer vague rationalisations.

We are already higher than the angels if we are in Jesus [cf Heb 2.6-7 and Coll 3.1-4.] You say Jesus is real because He had a physical body but nothing without a Physical body seems real to you-but God is Spirit?

Your Churches teaching also says Jesus did not exist prior to His birth except in the mind of the Father,and he had to die to save Himself???
What do others think?

[Anonymous]

hey guys,

i think it is interesting that the serpent deceived eve, thereby causing her to sin, yet paul says that because adam sinned, all sinned… does this mean that eve's sin doesn't count? does that mean that the serpent was guiltless?

(btw, i have an obvious ulteria motive here, but i think it would be good to start with this passage, and see if we can at least achieve a concensus before moving on to wider implications)

cheers,

nate.

[Proclaimer]

Good point nate,

Quote (Sammo @ Sep. 26 2004,18:15)

Well, exactly – the Bible never calls the devil an angel. That bit's inferred.

Sammo, you didn't explain the obvious from the following scriptures.

1) He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
2) And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
3) Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back

Sammo who am I to believe, you or scripture the way it is written. Your interpretation or the obvious message that the scriptures give us.

You ignore all references to Satan as a person which is prolific in scripture. Why for example should Michael exist but not Satan. Check out the 3rd verse I quoted above. It says the dragon and HIS angels and Michael and HIS angels. Again, why is Michael a person and the Dragon not? Why is the language construction the same, but you interpret each one differently? Because you are not being consistent Sammo. You are changing scripture to suit your doctrine. Or perhaps you also deny that Michael exists. Not sure about your belief here.

Your rebuffs Sammo, also ignore what these following verses plainly say:

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Not only are the personal references in bold obvious, but words like 'liar', and 'speaks', only adds to the fact that these verses are referring to a person.

When you read the scriptures about Satan, the Devil and the Dragon, it is referring to a person in it's language construction. Yes devil and satan can also be used as adjectives just as God/god(theos) and Eloyhim/eloyhim can, but like I said the adjective is missing the article, and the article is used to define the word as a noun/name.

Your logic is not only inconsistent with this, but you think the onus is on us to prove that the Devil exists when it is you who needs to prove that he doesn't. Why do I say this. It is simple. The language construction clearly speaks of the Devil in a personal sense. That is obvious to the reader and would be for you too, if you read the bible cover to cover whilst being marooned on an island with no previous knowledge of the message in the bible.

Most people reading the bible with no brainwashing would at least conclude that Jesus, God, Michael, James, Archangels, demons, King herod, the donkey that Jesus rode and Satan exisited. Why say they all exist except Satan, when the language construction is the same. Why when the word 'god' can be used to address the Father of our Spirits, someone of God, God's nature or even an idol do you say that satan is exclusively an adjective. Sure you can understand why your doctrine is looked upon with big suspicion.

The fact is Sammo, you are the one who needs to do the convincing and provide the proof that the language contruction is wrong or should be interpretted otherwise. So far you haven't done that. All you have done is given one liners as to why you think what scripture clearly says is wrong.

Your evidence so far is clearly not enough to convince any true follower of God and truth. It may shake someone weak in faith or even someone who wants somebody else to do their thinking. But for many who love truth, I do not think your words will have any impact. I am not insulting you, rather I am telling you the truth.

Most of us here are open minded and we come here to test our beliefs and to teach and learn because that is the wise thing to do. But in order for you to teach, you need to really get stuck into the scriptures and clearly teach from them and show how there is no scriptural conflict in what you bring.

I am simply just not convinced by your interpretation and evidence thus far.

One good thing in all this, is that any challenge makes us take a long hard look at what we believe. But as I said, so far your evidence so far is weak. Please provide something more convincing or something that is clear and obvious. This is what I and others will listen too.

I have no problem if you can do that because I am not here to say I am right. I am here to learn truth and enjoy light from God emanating from his people.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo.
The problem with denying the reality and nature of Satan is that you reject the teaching of Peter, Paul and Jesus Himself and make yourself greater than them. It is because the teachers you are following use weak, shallow and inadequate methods of scripture analysis.
I would encourage you to use your faith and stand on your own feet. Submit to the Word and be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Let the Spirit show you deeper and greater levels of understanding of the the true author of the Word.

[Author]

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