Fallen angels

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
You had some very interesting posts early in this debate. Satan seems to have had a special status always in the Word-perhaps equal with the other sons of God -the Archangels who he is seen mixing with in Job 1-2.

He is not rebuked directly by the Archangel Michael in Jude or the angel of the Lord in Zech 3. That suggests his status was at least equal with them and Jude seems to advise us we also should respect him at least with the false teachers rebuked for reviling the angelic beings.

Satan also was not been kept in the “perpetual bondage”[Jude] that other angels who rebelled but has been allowed to continue his role as 'prince of this world' with visitation rights to heaven as 'accuser of the brethren' till the endtimes.

When Jesus saw him falling from heaven was it a prophetic vision of Satan's expulsion with his angels as shown in Revelation-all due to Jesus obedience to His Father?

[NickHassan]

Hi,
The Angels who are known to have visited earth all seem to be those of special status-the Archangels or sons of God. Satan, Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and the Angel of the Lord-correct me if I am wrong. So perhaps only these elite angels have that ability. They may have abused it to produce the Nephilim.

Satan is prince of the earth and is known to have gone back and forth but the others only seemed to come into Satan's kingdom on God given missions-such as to Moses, Mary, Abraham and many other occasions.

When Satan is banned to earth and has his fallen angels what mischief will these hordes be able to enginneer?

[Sammo]

Raphael?

There were thousands of (most people agree they were) angels (on earth) in the story with Elisha and his servant (2 Kings 6).

There are no “evil angels” – angels cannot sin (Luke 20:36, Romans 6:23). Our hope is to be made equal unto the angels, and I sure hope that I won't still be able to sin in God's kingdom.

Satan is not an angel, nor does he even exist in a physical form.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Yes Satan exists. Scripture says so as you have been shown many times..

Yes there were thousands of angels present when Elisha was allowed to see them. They too were on a special mission.

Yes .Angels can sin. the scriptures say so.
2 Peter 2.4″ Did God spare even the ANGELS WHO SINNED?”
As you have been shown the Law of sin and death does not apply to the angels but to man.So your derived teaching is not true as the angels can sin but do not die.

No. We will not be made equal to the angels but, in Jesus, GREATER THAN the angels who are our servants too.
Heb 1-2. This has been opointed out before.

Satan will be chained up for 1000 yrs in the Millenial kingdom of Jesus so there will be no seducer into sin present or accuser of the brethren to point out our faults to God.Rev 20 2.Of course if you do not accept the book as true you will have a problem here.

Raphael makes an appearance in Enoch and the Apocryphal book of Tobit-OK I accept that may not be enough for some.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Sammo @ Oct. 17 2004,11:10)

…… There were thousands of (most people agree they were) angels (on earth) in the story with Elisha and his servant (2 Kings 6). There are no “evil angels” – angels cannot sin (Luke 20:36, Romans 6:23). Our hope is to be made equal unto the angels, and I sure hope that I won't still be able to sin in God's kingdom. Satan is not an angel, nor does he even exist in a physical form.

But there are elect angels just as there is the elect among mankind.

Mark 13:27
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

1 Timothy 5:21
I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.

Notice that the word 'elect' is obviously not talking about all men. So why should the elect be talking about all angels?

As I said before Sammo, the onus is on you to prove that Satan doesn't exist and also that Angels cannot sin. This is your doctrine and it flies in the face of scripture.

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

There are angels who remained with God and there are those that didn't. If Angels were never given the choice to not choose God then their love for him is not really genuine in the sense that they don't have a say in the matter. They are just obeying the program called 'love'. But when one chooses to love, it is then that true love is made evident.

Even Jesus had the choice to save us or not. His answer was “not my will but yours”, so that shows that he loves God and us. Jesus could have chosen not to die for us.

1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

Even God chooses to love us.

Would that act of love really be love if God or Jesus didn't have free will? Without will there can be no true love. Free will requires choice and choice requires options. How does one choose to love God if there isn't an option to not love him?

I think that God gives angels and men the choice to serve him or not so that true love can exist. Once this choice is made and we attain to the 'Elect', then we cannot be seperated from God after that.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect–if that were possible.

So I think the option for sin is there for one reason only. To give a choice, so that true love can spring from required free will. Once that decision is made and sealed, salvation is assured forever. Our decision to serve God lasts forever. Our lives here determine who we chose to serve and that is why our lives are judged. Our lives are the testimony of the choices we have made.

Yes God does have a creation that is governed by his laws and the planets and stars do not choose their orbits, rather they are subject to the given laws of the universe. But God gives us the ability to choose his law, or not. Because we are not things but persons. Angels are also persons. They are the sons of God too.

Job 2:1
On another day the angels [ 2:1 Hebrew [ the sons of God ] ] came to present themselves before the LORD , and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.

Job 38:7
while the morning stars sang together and all the angels [ 38:7 Hebrew [ the sons of God ] ] shouted for joy?

The onus is till on you Sammo, to prove that all these scriptures don't mean what they say. I haven't seen you successfully explain all these scriptures away yet.

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Hope your week's going well

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2004,17:13)

Yes .Angels can sin. the scriptures say so. 2 Peter 2.4″ Did God spare even the ANGELS WHO SINNED?”

That's an interesting verse (and the similar one in Jude). Much earlier in this thread I suggested that this was talking about the incident with Korah, Dathan and Abiram (and maybe it is). However, I've since read an interesting article that links this verse to the book of Enoch, which I had never looked at before – I had never even heard of Raphael until you mentioned him a couple of posts ago. The basic gist of the article is that “the angels who sinned”, as part of the book of Enoch, is one of the “damnable heresies” (2 Peter 2:1) that Peter was warning against. If you're interested, this is the link: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_sinned.pdf

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2004,17:13)

As you have been shown the Law of sin and death does not apply to the angels but to man.So your derived teaching is not true as the angels can sin but do not die.

I do remember you saying this, but I wasn't convinced. So far as I can see, statements like “the wages of sin are death”, and “the soul that sinneth it shall die” sound pretty global to me.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2004,17:13)

No. We will not be made equal to the angels

Quote (Luke 20:36 @ *)

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Your call – how do you explain this?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2004,17:13)

but, in Jesus, GREATER THAN the angels who are our servants too. Heb 1-2. This has been opointed out before.

Maybe there's a distinction between state and status. In any case, I'd be very hesitant to say that we'll be as great as Jesus in the kingdom of God. You need to explain Luke 20:36.

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2004,17:13)

Satan will be chained up for 1000 yrs in the Millenial kingdom of Jesus so there will be no seducer into sin present or accuser of the brethren to point out our faults to God.Rev 20 2.Of course if you do not accept the book as true you will have a problem here.

This verse mentions Satan – but doesn't prove any of the attributes you claim him to have.

God bless
Sam

[Sammo]

Hi t8

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 16 2004,18:22)

Quote (Sammo @ Oct. 17 2004,11:10) There are no “evil angels” – angels cannot sin (Luke 20:36, Romans 6:23). Our hope is to be made equal unto the angels, and I sure hope that I won't still be able to sin in God's kingdom. Satan is not an angel, nor does he even exist in a physical form. But there are elect angels just as there is the elect among mankind. Mark 13:27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

You mean this as an example of elect among mankind, right? Agreed.

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 16 2004,18:22)

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge you, in the sight of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism. Notice that the word 'elect' is obviously not talking about all men. So why should the elect be talking about all angels?

I don't know exactly what “elect angels” in this verse means. But:

• I don't see that this verse is necessarily speaking of divine angels, as opposed to human messengers, which would be the same word.
• Doesn't “elect” just mean chosen? If particular divine angels were chosen to have a role in Timothy's church, then wouldn't that make them “elect angels”?

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 16 2004,18:22)

As I said before Sammo, the onus is on you to prove that Satan doesn't exist and also that Angels cannot sin. This is your doctrine and it flies in the face of scripture.

Last time we corresponded, you said…

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2004,21:21)

What about a brief post that convinces me that when the bible says THE Devil or THE Satan, that it is not talking about a person. Tell me why when the article is used with others, e.g. the Jesus, the God etc (meaning a person) that this should not apply to the Devil. Why is that particular one exempt? Seems strange.

…and I gave exactly you what you asked for in one of my next posts. I believe that I have proved that Satan doesn't exist, several times over, but you never responded.

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2004,21:21)

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. There are angels who remained with God and there are those that didn't.

This is like 2 Peter 2:4, that Nick quoted. This is the article I offered, which there's little point me reproducing: http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_sinned.pdf

While we're here though, note that these “angels” are “bound with everlasting chains”. Presumably you take it that these angels are “the 1/3 of angels that the devil took in his adversity”? But if they're bound with everlasting chains, then who causes the trouble in the world today?

Quote (t8 @ Sep. 29 2004,21:21)

If Angels were never given the choice to not choose God then their love for him is not really genuine in the sense that they don't have a say in the matter. They are just obeying the program called 'love'. But when one chooses to love, it is then that true love is made evident. . . I think that God gives angels and men the choice to serve him or not so that true love can exist. Once this choice is made and we attain to the 'Elect', then we cannot be seperated from God after that. . . So I think the option for sin is there for one reason only. To give a choice, so that true love can spring from required free will. Once that decision is made and sealed, salvation is assured forever. Our decision to serve God lasts forever. Our lives here determine who we chose to serve and that is why our lives are judged. Our lives are the testimony of the choices we have made.

I agree that we are able to sin so that we are able to choose to serve God. Do you also agree that in the resurrection, we will be unable to sin? After all, Paul says “who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” (Romans 7:24). Presumably Paul was looking for a time when he would free from the temptations aroused by his lust in this life.

Who are you to say that angels weren't in the same boat as us once? That they have chosen to serve God, at some stage in the past, and that their perfection and immortality is part of their reward, just as it will be for us? Maybe that's just speculation, but I think it's wrong to say that angels haven't chosen to serve God, just because we're not told either way.

It seems pretty much inescapable to me that Jesus says “you will be equal to the angels in the resurrection”. Do you really believe that you will still be able to sin, even when you're immortal?

It's interesting – the only time the phrase “evil angels” is used in the Bible (or KJV at least) is in Psalm 78:49, where the angels are clearly under God's control. (Clearly this just means that the angels brought evil, not were evil.) This futher underscores the point that God is responsible for evil and suffering (but not sin) in the world, which is one of the key points I've been making all along.

I read several other examples of this just the other day in John, one in John 9:3 and one in John 11:4. In both cases, the cause of suffering is unmistakably God, for the greater good of all involved. Once again, Satan just doesn't enter the equation.

I gave 9 clear examples of the fact that God causes suffering, and not Satan, way back here. You never responded, to that or several other posts – but I hope you will this time.

And although you say the onus is on me to prove that the devil doesn't exist – and ok, I believe I've done that – I don't consider that you can prove a single tenet of your beliefs about the devil:

• That the devil is an Angel
• That the devil took 1/3 of God's Angels with him in his adversity.
• That the Devil fell from heaven
• That Satan the person is the inspiration behind all evil and lies

Take care,
Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
The verse in Lk 20.36 is translated as “like angels” in my translations and almost all of the versions on Bible Gateway. The Greek can be translated as “like ” or ” equal” as KJV has it. When you look at the context though it seems that “like” is better as “they become like angels and are no longer liable to death” is one concept. If you say “equal” then the” liable to death ” part has to be another concept so a comma or a separate phrase would be used to show that separation surely?
The gospel was not given to the angels but to man. Your global assumption has no basis in the Word. Likewise you still sadly remain blind to the reality of Satan in the Word

Of course the Christadelphian church had to have ready made denials of scripture [better still call it 'heresy'] that opposes it's doctrine in the Word [as in 2 Peter] or it would have given up years ago.
If you knew the Spirit you would be able to come to your own honest conclusions rather than using a standard doctrinal defence. When are you going to stop hiding behind these false doctrines my friend and think for yourself? No personal offense intended but some mature discussion would be welcome.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
As you know we are baptised into Christ -Coll, Gal -and
Rom 6.1″ Even so consider your self to be dead to sin but alive to God IN CHRIST JESUS”'
and that means what it says- in Jesus.
Collosians 2.1f says
“If then you have been raised up with Christ keep seeking the things abovewhere Christ is,seated at the right hand of God.Set your mind on the things above , not the things that are on eath. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.”
The Body of Christ on earth expresses too that unity we should have if we are baptised into Christ.

[Sammo]

Hi Nick

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 18 2004,19:07)

The verse in Lk 20.36 is translated as “like angels” in my translations and almost all of the versions on Bible Gateway. The Greek can be translated as “like ” or ” equal” as KJV has it. When you look at the context though it seems that “like” is better as “they become like angels and are no longer liable to death” is one concept. If you say “equal” then the” liable to death ” part has to be another concept so a comma or a separate phrase would be used to show that separation surely?

I'm not sure I really see what you're saying. “Like” in this context clearly means “the same as”, don't you think? Do a search for Strongs 2465 and 2470 and see for yourself.

Luke 20:36 is clearly saying that “sons of the resurrection” will be immortal because they will be like angels. Here's the NASB, for instance:

Quote

for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Immortality is an attribute of angels, as it will be an attribute of those in the kingdom of God. If you believe that immortals can sin, then you're saying that our hope is to given a body still capable of sin, which I protest. One, that's a lousy hope, and two, the Bible clearly says that “the soul that sinneth it shall die” and “the wages of sin is death”. You can't be immortal when you can still die. Can you?

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 18 2004,19:07)

If you knew the Spirit you would be able to come to your own honest conclusions rather than using a standard doctrinal defence.

Belonging to a group doesn't make me right or wrong.

Sam

[Sammo]

Hi everyone

I don't want to draw attention away from the fact that God causes suffering, and not Satan, or that “satan” and “diabolos” are both used with the definite article in contexts that clearly rule out an immortal evil being, or that none of the commonly claimed attributes of the devil can be proved by scripture, but I'd like to raise another thought.

Not once, in the entire Old Testament, is anyone ever warned about “Satan”. Nowhere, not once.

If Satan really is the immortal arch enemy of God, and the sole cause of our demise, does this not strike anyone as odd? Wouldn't God want people to know?

Where does the weight of scripture really lie?

Sam

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Well anyone who reads Job ch 1-2 will have no doubt about the abilities of Satan to cause harm.

The people of the old Testament were in a different situation.They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit-only the Prophets were filled with the Spirit of God. The jews could only follow the written Word of God according to natural intellect so they were blind to deep spiritual understanding.

Likewise they had no power to deal with Satan as that power comes from being baptised into Jesus and receiving the baptism of the Spirit. Satan was still prince of the world and greater than man and had yet to be deposed by the work of Jesus.

What use was deep knowledge about Satan's power and ability as they were still personally helpless to fight him?
We can have that power and need the knowledge as we are now greater than our enemy and need to continue to destroy his works.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
But I thought your argument was that we are equal to angels in status and authority- not immortality- which I agree to if we are considered worthy of the first resurrection.1 Cor 15.42 says that the spiritual body raised is “imperishable.”

But to be part of the first resurrection we need to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit as Roman 8.11 tells us.
Now your church teaches that that is no longer possible[2.6 Basic beliefs]so where does that leave you? If this is truly your hope you need to reach beyond your doctrines and partake of the gift the Father offers you freely.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
Rom 5. 12″ Therefore ,just as through one man sin entered into the world and with sin death, thus coming to all MEN inasmuch as all sinned-before the law there was sin in the world ,even though sin is not imputed when there is no Law.”
So the Law of sin and death does not apply to angels.[ or animals to those who say dinosaurs died due to this the law of sin and death]

Rom 6.14.” Sin will no longer have power over you: you are now under grace , NOT UNDER THE LAW” So this applies to in the millenial kingdom and ther also will be no nosy Satan about to accuse us before God as he will be chained up for 1000 yrs[rev 20.2]
Rom 7.1″Are you not aware ,my brothers,… that the Law has power over a man only so long as he lives” We have been baptised into Jesus's death.
Rom 8. 1 “The law of the Spirit… has freed us from the law of sin and death” If we are born again of the Spirit as well as water we will be lead by the Spirit-of course dogmas can prevent access to this promise.

But will all those in the millenial kingdom be in their new bodies?
Zech 14. 16 talks of those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem.
Rev 20 6 talks of those who reign but over who?
Is 65. 17ff talks of some only reaching the age of 100 so why would they die early?
Who knows??

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo ,
You quote James as evidence that sin comes from within as we agree it does. But James also mentions Satan in 4.7.
” Therefore submit to God :resist THE DEVIL and HE will take flight”
Peter also spoke of Satan in Peter 5.8
” Stay sober and alert. Your opponent THE DEVIL is prowling like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist HIM, solid in your faith realizing that the same brotherhood of believers is undergoing the same sufferings throughout the world”
Paul even promised personal victory over this powerful being in Rom 16.19
” I want you to be wise in regard to what is good and innocent of all evil.Then the God of peace will crush SATAN under YOUR FEET.”
The scripture of Peter's reminds us that we are as sheep protected by the Good Shepherd who has lain down his life for us. Staying close to his path is safety.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
We know from Revelation ,in at least 2 places, that Satan is the serpent of Genesis. The description of the fall of man in Gen 3 shows that Satan was the seducer of mankind into sin and rebellion. So he was already in rebellion against God before the creation of Man.

Jesus said he was a murderer “from the beginning”- the same phrase about 'before time' used about the existence of the Logos in several places in the Word. 1 Jn 3.8 also says Satan was a sinner “from the beginning” .That verse goes on to say that “It was to destroy the devil's works that the Son of God revealed himself”

Now it seems that Satan had a special role in relationship to earth. Jeus called him “this world's prince” in Jn 12 31 and spoke of Beelzebub's[Satan's] kingdom in Lk 11 and the overcoming of that strong man by a stronger one[Jesus]. All the sons of God seem to have special responsibilities and it seems that Satan had been responsible for earth, had rebelled and had set up his own kingdom here.

That was the world Adam and all of us are born into. In Eph 2.2 it says that until we are saved we “give allegiance to to the present age and the prince of the power of the air”[Satan on earth]That was part of Jesus's work, to retrieve the earth as God's possession and assume the kingdom here, restore it to perfection in the 1000yr reign and return it to His Father at the end of time.

I admit there will be a lot more to know about all this and I may be wrong but would like to see some discussion.

[NickHassan]

Hi Sammo,
1 Cor 6.3
” Do you not know that we are to JUDGE ANGELS?” If they are spiritually higher than us could we judge them?

Clearly some people consider them much higher as they are reported as worshipping them in Coll 2.18. People worship what they believe are gods. Scripture is full of references to other gods.
Jesus in Jn 10 34 quoted Ps 82.6 about men as gods and 1 Cor 8.5 says that “there are many gods and many lords”

Some of these are derided as pieces of wood and stone[eg Acts 19.26] throughout scripture but could some of them be evil angels [or archangels] drawing men away from the one true God? They are greater and cleverer than natural manand capable of miracles and appearances as people. They are ones spoken of by Paul in Eph 6 12 “the principalities and powers, the rulers of this world of darkness, the evil spirits in regions above ” and their work is to oppose God and take as many men with them as possible to destruction.

The apparitions at Lourdes and Fatima that catholics believe are visions of Mary bringing messages from heaven must fall into this category of evil angelic appearances .They certainly have lead to false worship. We were warned in Gal 1 if even an angel from heaven brought a message different from the gospel preached by Paul and the apostles let him be cursed.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
In Rev 20 when Satan is released after the 100 yrs he stirs up a rebellion against the Lord..It says” he will go out to seduce the nations in all 4 corners of the erath, and muster for war the troops of Gog and Magog, numerous as the sands of the sea”
Are these the people of the 2nd resurrection? I think not as they are destroyed and so undergo a 2nd death yet as the 2nd death is not until after the judgement in verse 14. So do they come from the ranks of the holy and happy saved in the first resurrection as sands of the sea is a large number of rebellious servants? Or is there a separate group outside the kingdom who continue to live and procreate in large numbers? I do not know but perhaps someone can help who has deeper knowledge.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Mt 6.9f” Our Father in Heaven……..Subject us not to the trial but deliver us from THE EVIL ONE”
1Jn 5.18.” We know that no one begotten of God commits sin; rather God protects the one begotten of Him, and so THE EVIL ONE CANNOT TOUCH him. We know that we belong to God ,while the whole world is under THE EVIL ONE”
2Thess 3.3″..but the Lord keeps faith; he it is who will strengthen you and guard you against THE EVIL ONE”
So if we live in Jesus spiritual protection is provided by God.The flock is guarded by the Shepherd. It is possible to stray and be destroyed by the devil but he can only destroy our flesh and not stop us being sheep.
1Peter 5.8″The devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”

[Proclaimer]

It's amazing Nick how blatantly clear that scripture is about the chief enemy of God. He is written of in the OT & NT. It would really be an ignorant thing to do to try and nullify all those scriptures that talk about HIM.

A saying that doesn't come from the bible, but I think is worthy of being mentioned is:

“The biggest lie the Devil told the world was that he didn't exist.”

This lie makes it possible for him to slip in unnoticed and caused havok. Imagine if the human race didn't believe in the existence of AL Qaeda. Then the explanation for these terrorist acts would never be helpful if the enemy were not identified. This enemy could travel into any border and destroy so long as the people didn't believe in them.

This is how the Devil works so powerfully in some peoples lives. They do not believe in him, so they are not prepared for him. It's too bad for some that their pride is so blinding.

[Author]

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