faith and works

[NickHassan]

Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 01 2005,06:12)

No, You missed the point, in that “” so that the requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit”” Still, he jumps the gun, and just when I thought he was beginning to understand? Now how might the requirements of the law be fulfilled in us, if it is not by Messiah and His Spirit living in us ? Just when I thought you were catching on? Well it seems those who disobey will never catch on.

exactly Eliyah,
That is why we must know we have the Spirit. If we do not have the Spirit we do not have the internal teacher who is Law to us and we are helpless to serve Yahweh.We never were under the OT Law but can be with the Israelites under the Law of the Spirit.

[Eliyah]

Paul plainly said…

So then with the MIND I ( Paul ) MYSELF SERVE THE LAW OF El( Yah); but with the flesh the law of sin.( Romans 7:25).

Paul also said, “” I ( Paul ) DELIGHT IN THE LAW OF El ( Yah) after the inward man. But I ( Paul ) SEE ANOTHER LAW in my members, warring against THE LAW( Yah's law) OF MY MIND, and bringing me ( Paul ) into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members ( Romans 7:22-23).

And this ANOTHER LAW OF SIN mentioned in ( Rom.8:2 last part) wars against Yah's Law of the Spirit in Messiah, that Paul served with his mind( Rom.7:25 first part, and Rom.8:2 first part).

Now, I tired of people thinking that Paul was double tongued like the Indians said of the white man, but Paul never taught against Yah's laws.

Like I said, Now, IF you twist or mis-understand these words above, then you twist and mis-understand them on purpose.

Now are you not really out of context here ?

[NickHassan]

Hi eliyah,
Why waste so many words accusing others? Do you not know that you are not to judge? If only you could keep your tiresome abuse out of your posts more would listen. Perhaps that is not you want or expect?

Paul was under the OT Law. We never were. We can all have the indwelling Law of the Spirit, a law which is positive and not negative. It shows us how to walk and love Yahweh and does not condemn us . There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So why are you so keen on condemning men?

[Eliyah]

Nick,

I never condemned anyone, is that all you can do is accuse me , every time I dis-prove your out of context posts with scriptures?

What do you think in your mind that WHO'S WORDS WE ARE TO FOLLOW, our own stupid reasonings as we see fit, and make up the rules as we see fit?

You resort to accusing me when I dis-prove your posts.

[Eliyah]

You said,

Quote

Paul was under the OT Law. We never were.

Show me that statement in the scriptures?

But then, you never answer a question, you play dodge ball when you can't prove your statements in the scriptures, and then you resort to accusing me everytime I show scriptures that dis-prove your unscriptural statements.

[NickHassan]

Hi eliyah,
Try
1Cor 9.20-21
Rom 2.12f

[Eliyah]

First you say,

“”

Quote

Paul was under the OT Law.

Then you say,

Quote

We never were.

Show me that statement in the scriptures?

The plain fact of scriptures is that Paul taught the Gentile CONVERTS that the only way to fulfill the righteous requirements of the spiritual law of Yah and of Messiah( Rom.7:14: Rom.8:2 first part), is if Messiah is in us( Rom.8:10).

Paul also said,

“” What shall we say then? Is the law sin? El ( Yah) forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.( Rom.7:7)””

“” For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.( Rom.7:14).

“” Because the carnal mind is enmity( an enemy) against El ( Yah) : for it is not subject to the law of El ( Yah) , neither indeed can be.( Rom.8:7).

8. “”So then they that are in the flesh cannot please El ( Yah).
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of El ( Yah ) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of MESSIAH, he is none of his.

Those who do not fulfill the righteous requirements of Yah and Messiah's laws by Messiah being in them do not have Messiah's Spirit in them, and those people are none of Messiah, or does not belong to Him.

10. 10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
( Romans 8:2-10).

Now, Nick can accuse me of condemning people, but I'm not condemning anyone, just stating scriptural facts as Paul wrote, and Paul did not teach against Yah and Messiah's Laws, for the laws of Messiah are the same law of El (Yah), which Paul said that he served with the mind ( Rom.7:25).

Paul plainly taught Gentile converts to do the same.

Now, am I condemning or judging anyone merely because I point this out concerning what Paul taught to Gentile converted people ?

[NickHassan]

Hi eliyah,
Paul was a pharisee under the Law. Paul's faith led him to approve of the murder of Stephen.Paul told us we must be transformed by being renewed in the spirit of our mind. It was not his OT Law that he spoke of but the Law of the Spirit that we were to follow. That Law was written in his mind by the Spirit of Yahweh.

Phil 3.4
” …If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more;circumcised on the 8th day of the nation of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law a Pharisee; as to Zeal, a persecutor of the church, as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that I count all things as loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish that I might gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law ,but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith”

[Eliyah]

Nick,

Quote

Hi eliyah, Try 1Cor 9.20-21 Rom 2.12f

Nick, that did not answer the question above that I asked.

Yea, let's take a close look at ( 1 Cor.9:21).

“”20.And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21.To them that are without law, as without law,
(BEING NOT WITHOUT LAW TO EL ( Yah) , BUT UNDER THE LAW TO MESSIAH ),that I might gain them that are without law.

What do you think Paul said in that verse ?

Paul plainly said, that he was NOT WITHOUT LAW TO YAH, but was UNDER THE LAW TO MESSIAH

Paul is not saying he was not keeping the law of Yah here Nick.

“” being NOT without law to Yah””

He NEVER said “” being without law to Yah“”, for the word NOT is in that verse.

I will paraphrase that verse.

“” NOT being without LAW to Yah, but under the LAW to Messiah””

Ah ha, Paul was under the Law of Yah to Messiah, that he might gain them that are without or them that were not under the law.

Paul was 'NOT' without law to Yah, but was under Yah's law to Messiah, that he might gain them that was without law.

That verse proves the same as ( Rom.7:25) that Paul served the Law of Yah with his mind, which is also the law of Messiah.

Show me any scriptures where the law of Messiah, is not the law of Yah ?

And as far as ( Rom.2:12), look at the next verse( Rom.2:13).

Now answer my questions will you, or will you keep dodging them as you always do?

[Eliyah]

Nick,

All this goes back to THE ONLY COVENANT of ( Jer.31:33 ; Heb.8:10) where He said I WILL WRITE MY LAWS IN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS( Compare with Paul's statement in Rom.7:25), which you do NOT want to accept that NEW COVENANT do ye?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 01 2005,09:13)

First you say, “” Quote Paul was under the OT Law. Then you say, Quote We never were. Show me that statement in the scriptures? The plain fact of scriptures is that Paul taught the Gentile CONVERTS that the only way to fulfill the righteous requirements of the spiritual law of Yah and of Messiah( Rom.7:14: Rom.8:2 first part), is if Messiah is in us( Rom.8:10). Paul also said, “” What shall we say then? Is the law sin? El ( Yah) forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.( Rom.7:7)”” “” For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.( Rom.7:14). “” Because the carnal mind is enmity( an enemy) against El ( Yah) : for it is not subject to the law of El ( Yah) , neither indeed can be.( Rom.8:7). 8. “”So then they that are in the flesh cannot please El ( Yah). 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of El ( Yah ) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of MESSIAH, he is none of his. Those who do not fulfill the righteous requirements of Yah and Messiah's laws by Messiah being in them do not have Messiah's Spirit in them, and those people are none of Messiah, or does not belong to Him. 10. 10 And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ( Romans 8:2-10). Now, Nick can accuse me of condemning people, but I'm not condemning anyone, just stating scriptural facts as Paul wrote, and Paul did not teach against Yah and Messiah's Laws, for the laws of Messiah are the same law of El (Yah), which Paul said that he served with the mind ( Rom.7:25). Paul plainly taught Gentile converts to do the same. Now, am I condemning or judging anyone merely because I point this out concerning what Paul taught to Gentile converted people ?

Hi eliyah,
No the Laws of Christ are different. They are not a repeat of the old Law. Paul did not teach the gentiles to obey the old Law. The old covenant was just a shadow of the New. In fact they had great trouble with those of the circumcision who demanded the gentiles be circumcised too to partake in the old covenant/law as well as the New Covenant in the blood of Christ.

1Cor 11,25
“..This cup is the new covenant in my blood”

Even Peter was misled by the crafty deceivers so soon after Christ taught him.

The Laws of Christ are different.They include:

“You must be born again”
“Love one another as I have loved you”
“Forgive”
“Follow me”

As Paul told the Galatians in Ch 5.4

” You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by Law”

Obedience to the Law saves no one.
Obedience to the Law is not evidence of salvation.
Obedience to the Law is not evidence of the Holy Spirit in a man.

The evidence of the Spirit in a man is the presence of the nature and power[fruit and gifts] of Yahweh as in Christ.

[Eliyah]

I never said that a person is justified from past sins before Yah by the law, I said the purpose of the law is to identify and tell us what sin is( Rom.3:20:Rom.7:7; 1 John 3:4).

Can you not understand English?

[Eliyah]

What are you some kind of jerk that keeps on twising my words to fit your own demented mind of thinking?

[Eliyah]

You still never showed me any scriptures stating Yah's Laws is different from the Law of Messiah, and you cannot because BOTH ARE THE SAME that is why you cannot show it to me can you?

[Eliyah]

Paul said,

Circumcission is nothing and un-circumcission is nothing( But what is something?), BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF El ( YAH)( 1 Cor.7:19).

Now, enough of your folly Nick concerning obedience to Yah's Commands.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 01 2005,11:49)

I never said that a person is justified from past sins before Yah by the law, I said the purpose of the law is to identify and tell us what sin is( Rom.3:20:Rom.7:7; 1 John 3:4). Can you not understand English?

Hi eliyah,
That is true.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 01 2005,11:52)

What are you some kind of jerk that keeps on twising my words to fit your own demented mind of thinking?

Hi eliyah,
No I don't think I am.

I am not a nincompoop.
I am not a jerk.
I am not demented.
I am not an evil person.
I am not a word twister
etc
etc
etc

I am sorry if my words always seem to upset you but why they do remains a mystery to many readers I am sure.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Eliyah @ Oct. 01 2005,12:22)

Paul said, Circumcission is nothing and un-circumcission is nothing( But what is something?), BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF El ( YAH)( 1 Cor.7:19). Now, enough of your folly Nick concerning obedience to Yah's Commands.

Hi eliyah,
The ten commandments given to the Israelites are written as such;

“thou shalt not..”

The Pharisees followed these legal restrictions to the letter of the Law and far beyond such that they became deceived by an illusion of self perfectionism. They remind us of sin, as you say but cannot condemn us who are in Christ.

But the Spirit of the Law was not a list of restrictions. It is love. These are the commandments of God that are spoken of in 1Cor.7.19. This is the Law that remains and is written on the hearts of men by the spirit of the Father. It was never given to the gentiles but is sometimes found written naturally in their hearts as well[Rom 2.14]

Deut 6.4
“Hear O Israel! The Lord is our God. the Lord alone! Therefore you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength”

This was reinforced by Yeshua
Matt 22.36
” Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?'
And he said to him
'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind'
This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it.
'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'
On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets”

Gal 5.13f
” For you have been called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement
'You shall love your neighbour as yourself'
….But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness, self-control;against such things there is no Law”

There is no law against love. It is the perfect plan of the Father. It is good for us to give it and for all who receive it. It is the essence of real life. Yes the gentiles would have been instructed in these two commandments of love of Yahweh just as all the letters of the NT expound them.

Yeshua died for us. He has added for us who are in him a new commandment;

“Love one another as I have loved you”

[Eliyah]

Nick,

You are exactly hostile and an enemy against Yah's laws as Paul said ( Romans 8:7) and are therefore still fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and sensually not having the true Spirit of Yahweh.

Evidently your blind ( 2 Cor.4:4) to that truth.

I cannot have a discussion with a person with blinders over their eyes, and that pick and choose from the scriptures whatever fits their life style.

Evidently your a Pentecostal Charismatic.

[NickHassan]

Hi eliyah,

Faith produces good fruit that upbuilds and encourages. Have you ever experienced such kindnesses in your walk?

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