- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Have you gone through the gate?
The way the Spirit is spoken of in NT scripture is as evidence of our salvation. We are given the Spirit as downpayment as Paul has said and John, in his first letter also spoke in a similar vein. So the Spirit is meant to real to each of us in our lives, so real that we can recognise this evidence.
Nick,
Quote Have you gone through the gate? Actually, I am trying to find out from you what you mean by “going through the gate”. You repeat it so often, yet I am not sure everyone knows what you mean by it. That's why I asked the questions that I did.
Are you going to respond to my follow-up questions?
Hi OS,
I hesitate because I do not feel it is right to expose the work of the Spirit to the mockery of men. You may wish to do this I do not know or you may be genuinely interested. I have also witnessed the effective works of others.You may prefer to believe that I am a fraud and these are false signs and you are entitled to your opinion which I could not prove wrong. However some others may gain and I would be interested in the experiences too.
Tongues can only be interpretated by those who have the Spirit given gift of interpretation of tongues. So what I say I do not understand as it bypasses my mind. I do remember a situation when someone with us was using tongues and a Maori visitor was stunned and said
“He has just said the Our Father in Maori”I have seen a woman I had the joy of praying with completely healed of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis, such that she was about to need a wheel chair, and she told me later when she was well the illness left immediately.
I have seen a man demented and utterly confused in a Mental Hospital brought instantly to his senses by a prayer of deliverance spoken by me.
If God has allowed me a glimpse of His power then perhaps others may want to share in it too.
Nick,
Based on your response to David in the “gift of tongues” topic, I can see that you are not interested in a scriptural study of what you claim to be your personal evidence of being “baptized in the Spirit”. So I won't pile on. But let me ask you this:
Are you aware that millions of catholics and protestants claim the same evidence as you? Do you think that any of these movements are counterfeit? Do you think that your evidence can be faked, or at the very least, is highly subjective?
Hi OS,
Certainly there are many fake signs and false teachers deciving thousands throughout the world now using false signs. This gift is for private use and not public performance as Paul has said.There are many of God's people within the Whore of Babylon .Why else would scripture say”come out of her my people”. Yahweh can give His Spirit to anyone He chooses. But their false churches are not led by the Spirit as they claim.
Nick wrote:
Quote This gift is for private use and not public performance as Paul has said. That goes completely against scriptural example.
Quote Acts 2:
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”Also, Paul's teaching:
Quote 1 Corinthians 14:
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
It is not a gift used to prove to other believers that “you are saved”. It is a gift used to advance the gospel.
Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2005,17:18) 1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” I'm wondering how t8 and Nick are fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought. You don't always “speak in agreement.”
T8 responded to someone with these words: “I TOTALLY AGREE.”
Nick responded to the same statement with these words: “I DON'T.”
Hi david,Even the disciples of Christ had different opinions from time to time, that is the freedom in the Spirit. But we are to work toward being of one mind. That one mind approach is not talking about joining a denomination that has creeds which you must abide by, rather that we all come to the knowledge of the truth.
How do we come to that knowledge? Well we must hear the word in order to believe it. If someone disagrees with the truth, then that person has work to do. But it is OK to say that I do not agree with something. That is an admission in truth that I cannot see your words as true. If that is the case, what is important is that it is worked out. If we are humble and are led by the Spirit, then that will not be a problem. If we are proud of heart, then we will be hard of hearing and unlikely to change.
To david,
Quote (david @ Sep. 13 2005,17:18) I'm wondering how many administrators there are on here (just two?)
I'm wondering how you were chosen or how you came to be administrators.And I wonder how the two of you differ from any other religion.
david.
Currently there are 2 Admins in name. There are also others who are not admins in name, but are of like mind.
Admins are invited to be admins by the other admins. As the forum grows, it is hoped that the amount of admins will too.We are different to “other religions” (like the JWs or Catholics) as you say, because our message is not about starting up a new religion or denomination (in our name), rather it is about recognising the true body that already exists in our midst. We are simply here to serve the truth and teach men that Jesus never started up denominations. Rather he is the head of his body, plain and simple.
You will notice that we do not push a denomination or religion. You will also notice that scripture is our creed (if we are to have a creed). We are open and we discuss what we believe in the open. We are trying to teach men to not rely on themselves and the works of man, but to just open their eyes to what God has already done.
We have no self-made creed. We have no need for money to buy property or for renting a building in which to meet. We do not have a president, apart from the true shepherd. We are simply saying that we can be one in spirit anywhere anytime. The body (church) trancends all race, age, sex, nationality, geography, and time. It is those who are filled with God's Spirit. We are his temple.
Personally I have met brothers and sisters all over the world. Even in the remotest Outback of Australia I have met Aboriginals who are brothers and sisters. Some who belong to God may also be members of a denomination others are not. Certainly we are here to say that ALL who belong to the Body of Christ are OF Christ and NOT all who belong to a denomination are of Christ. In that we can see that the true body is not any one denomination or organisation. Surely we do warn against those who say we are the truth. Or we are the only church. Or we are the best church. Or those who say “are you a follower of Paul, or Peter”? We are here to say that such thinking is from mere men, it is carnal.
We are encouraging people who come here to see with their spirtual eyes and to keep away from the traditions of men and carnal works. Some who come here will never of course see the spiritual things because they do not even have the Spirit of God in them. Such people can only promote the works of man. To these people we try to help. Often they will patriotically defend the religion that they were brought up in, or the denomination that has become their foundation. But some do have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Perhaps you could look at what is being done here as a ministry, (a voice in the wilderness). We are here to call and serve the Body of Christ. We are here to help those who want to know about God. We are here to help those who can see the hipocracy of the religions of men and are perhaps disillusioned. Of course we also come here to listen and speak to those of like mind from around the world. In that way we learn from each other.
In short, we are here to reinforce that which is already done. We are not here to create a new foundation, but to build on the one that is already laid.
Quote (OneSpirit @ Sep. 30 2005,19:57) Nick wrote: Quote This gift is for private use and not public performance as Paul has said. That goes completely against scriptural example.
Quote Acts 2:
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”
13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”Also, Paul's teaching:
Quote 1 Corinthians 14:
20Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21In the Law it is written:
“Through men of strange tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,” says the Lord.22Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.
It is not a gift used to prove to other believers that “you are saved”. It is a gift used to advance the gospel.
Hi OS,
Good points. Perhaps I should have been more clear. The gift of tongues is not for excessive public performance within a church meeting situation as often happens in the charismatic churches.
Paul makes that very plain in 1Cor 14 13-19. He does not say tongues should not be used but with a sense of discipline and order as in 1Cor 14 26-28. But the verses in 1Cor 14.20-25 certainly show that it is for a sign for unbelievers as was shown at Pentecost.
Sibce it is one of the gifts of the Spirit and the Spirit has never been withdrawn do you agree we should still seek it as we should seek any good gift? If we do not are we not rebelling and frustrating the revealed purposes of the Father?
Acts 2.38f
“…and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself”Nick,
You said,
Quote Good points. Perhaps I should have been more clear. The gift of tongues is not for excessive public performance within a church meeting situation as often happens in the charismatic churches.
Paul makes that very plain in 1Cor 14 13-19. He does not say tongues should not be used but with a sense of discipline and order as in 1Cor 14 26-28. But the verses in 1Cor 14.20-25 certainly show that it is for a sign for unbelievers as was shown at Pentecost.
Sibce it is one of the gifts of the Spirit and the Spirit has never been withdrawn do you agree we should still seek it as we should seek any good gift? If we do not are we not rebelling and frustrating the revealed purposes of the Father?
Acts 2.38f
“…and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord will call to Himself”You said,
Quote But the verses in 1Cor 14.20-25 certainly show that it is for a sign for unbelievers as was shown at Pentecost. The ( Acts 2) experience was NOT UNKNOWN TONGUES OR LANGUAGES, for everyone( of the strangers) heard them( The Desciples) speak in their( the strangers) own native tongue or language the wonderful works of Yah( Acts 2:8-11)., and every word of the Desciple's were being understood there.
Also, you asked,
Quote Sib(n)ce it is one of the gifts of the Spirit and the Spirit has never been withdrawn do you agree we should still seek it as we should seek any good gift? Since you use the word to ” seek “, Paul says to seek that you may edify the Assembly( 1 Cor.14:12), but rather that ye may prophesy.( 1 Cor.14:1), but he also says, if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the Assembly( 1 Cor.14:28), and forbid not to speak with tongues, but covet to prophesy( 1 Cor.14:39).
I agree with ONESPIRIT , as he also has spoken according to these scriptural texts.
Also,
You said,
Quote This gift is for private use and not public performance as Paul has said. There is no scripture that makes such a statement.
Hi
Tongues can be edifying, as at Pentecost, or require an interpreter as in 1Cor 14. As Romans 8.26f shows us it is to help us communicate with our Father about needs we do not even know.I explained your translating or interpreting in the topic under tongues , where this should have been.
Hi ,
The forum is on faith and works. Some attempt tp prove faith by works. That is folly as good works are a fruit. They result from our righteousness in Christ, if we are in Christ, and they do not make us righteous-that sort of righteousness is as filthy rags as Isaiah told us.
Our works in Christ are rightly expected and we still face his tribunal to show what interest the investment of the Spirit in us has produced.[Mt25.14f]. Trees that produce no fruit are cut down to be burnt.The Messiah gave a very important anology concerning that He was the TRUE VINE, and that His Father Yah was the true Husbandman of the vinyard ( John 15:1).
2. Every branch( or true follower and believer) in me( Messiah) that beareth not fruit( See Gal.5:22 of obedience of fruit of Yah Commands ) He ( The Father Yah) taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit( See Gal.5:22 of obedience and the fruit of Yah's Commands) He ( The Father) purges it( the branch), that it( the branch) may bring forth more fruit( or more fruit of obedience to Yah).
3. Now you are clean through the Word( Study All the scriptures ) which I ( Messiah) have spoken to you( My Desciples or followers)
4.Abide in me, and I in you As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine( Messiah); no more can ye( followers or believers), except ye abide in me( See Rom.8:9-10) as His Spirit is in you; 1 Peter 2:21 as you follow in His steps).
5. I ( Messiah)am the vine, ye ( Followers or believers)are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him( See Rom.8:9-10; 1 Peter 2:21), the same bringeth forth much fruit( See 5:22 of the fruit of obedience to Yah's Commands): for without Me( Messiah and His Spirit in you, the you are none of His and can do nothing, See Rom.8:9).
6. If a man abide not in me( or has not His Spirit, See Rom.8:9-10), he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned( See Rom.8:13; Rev.20:14).
7 . If ye abide in me( See Rom.8:10), and my words( See John 6:23) abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit( See Gal.5:22 of obedience of the fruit of Yah's Commands); so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love( Obedience to His Commandments).
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love( See 1 John 5:2-3, of loving Yah's people, and loving Yah's Commandments).
11. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.( See 1 John 5:2-3 again)
( St.John 15:1-10).( 1 John 2:3-4) And hereby we do know that we know him( Yah), if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him( Father Yah ), and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth( See John 17:17) is not in him( or that person).
Now didn't Messiah say that He was the true vine(John. 15:1-5), and didn't He also say that He obeyed and kept the Father Yah's Commandments( John 15:10), and didn't Peter instruct us to follow in His- Messiah's steps and do as He did( 1 Peter 2:21), and didn't Paul say that if any person has not the Spirit of Messiah, that person is none of Messiah at all( Rom.8:9) , and IFMessiah dwells in You (Rom.8:10), will you not also keep and obey the Father Yah's Commandments too ?
Well, if Messiah and His Spirit dwells in you, then are you not going to fulfill and obey the Father Yah's Commandments as He the Messiah did too ?
Also, those who do error such as traditional christianity in claiming Yah's Laws and Commandments cannot be kept and obeyed through His true Spirit, are of and still in the flesh as Paul makes that plain in ( Rom.Chapter 8) because they are enimity( an enemy) against Yah, and against His Laws( Rom.8:7) because the carnal mind is against Yah and His laws, and do not want to be subject to His Laws either, and that is very evident in the traditional teachings of modern christian denominations today too or are they not ?
You seem to be confused concerning Paul's assertation about the law of circumcission Gal.5:2, and not only that, but you also seem to be confused about what Paul meant by ” not being under the curse or death penality of the law( Gal.3:13) ” , which he speaks about ” as the death penality, or penality of death( Rom.Chapter 4 and 5) that Messiah has redeemed us from that second death penality that the law demands because of sin / ie- transgressions( 1 John 3:4), but he does not say that the law of Yah is of none effect or void through faith( Rom.3:31).
There is a big difference between ” the law of the flesh and death “( Rom.7:21, 23) that Paul speaks about different from The Law of Yah( Rom.7:22) which most everyone confuses to mean the same, however, they are not the same law.
Just because we walk in the Spirit, and are not fulfilling the law of the flesh Rom.7:21), does not mean we are not to fulfill the law of Yah( Rom.7:22) through that same walk in the Spirit( Gal.5:16) as you seem to be confusing.
You had better get your scriptural definitions straight, and stop confusing Paul's writings as Peter said concerning Paul's writings that people TWIST to their own destruction in ( 2 Peter 15-16).
Paul makes it plain in Rom.Chapter 8, that those who mind the things of the flesh, do not have the spirit, and are hostile or enimity against Yah and His Law, and do not want to be subject to Yah's laws, and neither indeed can they be.( Rom.8:5-8).
Again, will you not take the time to look into the scriptures given, or will you continually ignore, twist and mis-understand my words as you normally do?
Go back and take the time to re-read that POST OF MINE, because a person cannot please nor obey Yah and His Laws without Yah's true spirit is within that person, and that is the reason people are an enemy( Rom.8:7) against Yah and His law, and Paul makes that plain.
This is also WHY those of the flesh, do not produce the fruits of the spirit of Yah's righteousness( Gal.5:22), and all Yah's Commandments are righteousness( Psalms 119:172), and all His Commandments can only be fulfilled through His Spirit, and against such fruits of the spirit( Gal.5:22), there is no law( Gal.5:23).
How can the Branches( Us) not produce and do the same as the True vine( Messiah) does too, If Messiah lives in us through His Spirit( Rom.8:9-10), and to produce the fruits of the spirit( Gal.5:22), otherwise, how are those that are in the flesh and cannot please Yah, an enemy against Yah and His law( Rom.8:7) ?
Eliyah C.
Hi Eliyah,
So you have to become part of the vine first. Right? We are not naturally branches of that vine. We, who obey the Son's instructions, are wild olive branches grafted into the true olive. Then when you join the grapevine you can be blessed with the Spirit, which is as the sap of the vine, and naturally produce the fruit of the vine. So it is not in copying the vine only is it? That is useless folly.You said,
Quote So you have to become part of the vine first. Right? We are not naturally branches of that vine. We, who obey the Son's instructions, are wild olive branches grafted into the true olive. Then when you join the grapevine you can be blessed with the Spirit, which is as the sap of the vine, and naturally produce the fruit of the vine. So it is not in copying the vine only is it? That is useless folly. Well, is he finally after all, catching on ?
Yes, one has to be attached to THE VINE , and after one is attached to the VINE , the very sap or Spirit is then flowing through and in the Branches , then the branches will do and fulfill Yah's law( Rom.8) through Messiah( the VINE) as He fulfilled the law too, and His Spirit living in us( the Branches), will only then make it possibly for us to fulfill Yah's law too.
Now, is this not exactly what Both Messiah and Paul meant?
Now, think about everytime you accused me on here too.
Hi eliyah,
You have missed the context.
Roman 8.2
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death.”
So is the Law spoken of here the OT Law or the ten commandments?
No.
It is the Law of the Spirit. and “where the Spirit is there is freedom” Not freedom to sin or licentiousness but the freedom that comes from following the internal teaching of the Spirit as in 1 Jn 2,27.
Back to Rom 8.3
Here the Old Law is spoken of“For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the fles, God did, sending His own son in the likeness of flesh, so that the requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit”-the Law of the Spirit.
No,
You missed the point, in that “” so that the requirements of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit””
Still, he jumps the gun, and just when I thought he was beginning to understand?
Now how might the requirements of the law be fulfilled in us, if it is not by Messiah and His Spirit living in us ?
Just when I thought you were catching on?
Well it seems those who disobey will never catch on.
You are the one who is not getting the point and out of context , because the law is spiritual Rom.7:14, and this is the law of the spirit of life in Messiah( Rom.8:2 first part), and the law of sin and death is that ANOTHER LAW( Rom.7:21,23 first part), that wars against the “” LAW OF YAH “” that Paul served with his mind( Rom.7:25 first part).
Paul speaks of 2 laws in ( Rom.7:21-25), and the one law of sin in the flesh, wars against Yah's( El's) Law which Paul served with his mind( Rom.7:25), and that is why he said.
So with the mind I myself serve the law of Yah( El), but with the flesh the law of sin( Rom.7:25).
Now, IF you twist or mis-understand these words above, then you twist and mis-understand them on purpose.
Your the one who has it out of context, and now you have been shown this too.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
