- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2009,09:17) Martian said: Quote I am willing to throw out all sources but you cling to them. Where did you come up with the idea that YHWH means I will become? Was it a source? What!!! You're willing to throw out all sources??? I cling to sources???
You ask where I got the idea that YHWH means “I will become what I will become.” First, I gave you the link to the Hebrew-English Interlinear on the Trinity 2 thread. Are you saying the Interlinear is not a source? Btw, I first got it from my former pastor who is a Hebrew scholar and has published several books for the past several years and has been a professor at a well known Seminary.
But for you to now say that it is I who “clings” to sources and then forget that I provided the Interlinear as a source is making me want to put on the gloves again!
I'm not going back to the Trinity 2 thread until you regain your senses.
To All,
You are my witness that I tried to be a peacemaker today. Now Martian is being provocative and saying that I cling to sources when we alll know better. And he forgets that I provided the Interlinear as a source and then asks, “was it a source”? He says that he is not interested in debate but only in fruit. I think we all know now what Martian means by the term “fruit”.thinker
Again how can you claim to not want to use sources and yet you stick to a source to prove your point.FYI I too can claim a sourse that says YHWH means He exists. This source is a teacher and has published many books on the Hebrew language and culture. I was told about this teacher by my pastor.
To all –
I give you notice to observe that thinker claims to trust no man or source yet uses a source to prove his point that YHWH means “I will become”. Evidently what he relaly means is that he trusts no source that does not agree with his preconcieved ideas of truth.That is not being fair or truthfull.
You say rules of debate as if there is some intrinsic spiritual value to debate. Is that what you are hear for to show us what a good debater you are? It appears you live to debate rather then living to become like Christ.
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,You want debate. I want fruit.
You say scripture, but are you not really saying what you or some translator defines as what the scripture says?
Throwing scripture back and forth with adjacent opinions will produce no fruit. No thank you. Especially when no ones opinion has value except yours. You are the one that said you trust no man. Therefore you are not going to trust my “commentary” on verse. In fact how do you trust your own commentary on scripture since you are deceitfull and wicked like everyone else.
the whole thing becomes idle philosophy with scripture plugged into it.
You say context but refuse to consider the context of culture and it's effect on the original writers and words of scripture. It is impossible to understand fully the NT without a good foundation in the OT. Since none of us lived in the OT times and the ancient Eastern cultures are all gone a person must rely on sources that have studied those cultures and languages. Culture has great influince on the way we view our world and the things in and about us. Since Eastern cultures are vastly different then our Western cultures, it is faulty to expect a person to understand scripture and not understand the Eastern Culture that the writers lived in.
You have manipulated and twisted my words taking them out of context (even though you swear that you obey context) it's a lie.I can see that you are a mental ascenssion Christian. Seeking some form of justification from debate tactics without concern for the fruit you really produce.
There are monks in Tibet that have the entire book of the Bible memorised, but I doubt that they have a clue what it means.
Hi All:
The Apostle Paul was dealing with the transition from the OT to the NT, and he made the following statement to those Jews who had become Christians:
Quote Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?And then he states:
Quote Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.He then states:
Quote Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.And so, Gal 4:10 states what these Jews who had received the Spirit of God were doing.
However, James was saying that Believing is not just a mental assent. Following are the works that he was speaking of:
Quote Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: Quote Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?These works that he talking about here are works that someone in the Spirit would be manifesting, and it is no different than what the Apostle Paul indicates here:
Quote Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.And so, James was not speaking of how someone receives the Spirit of God but the works that would be manifest in a person's life if he was in the faith.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2009,10:20) Meerkat said: Quote Martian, You seem to be judging this board only by the vocal people who are replying negatively to your posts and challenging you
Meerkat,
I agree with you and and I thank you for saying this. If you challenge Martian or his sources you're just speaking “opinion”. Yet I have provided two sources, one on the Trinity thread and the other on this thread. My sources were either explained away or just dismissed altogether. The difference is that I'm not whining about it (hugs and kisses Martian).thinker
Thinker,It seems to me that all “sources” are not good sources or accurate sources – just like any/all doctrines can/is supported by scriptures taken from the bible.
It seems we need separate true from false.
Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 13 2009,10:04) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2009,10:20) Meerkat said: Quote Martian, You seem to be judging this board only by the vocal people who are replying negatively to your posts and challenging you
Meerkat,
I agree with you and and I thank you for saying this. If you challenge Martian or his sources you're just speaking “opinion”. Yet I have provided two sources, one on the Trinity thread and the other on this thread. My sources were either explained away or just dismissed altogether. The difference is that I'm not whining about it (hugs and kisses Martian).thinker
Thinker,It seems to me that all “sources” are not good sources or accurate sources – just like any/all doctrines can/is supported by scriptures taken from the bible.
It seems we need separate true from false.
I agree that all of them can be false. That is why I prefer to judge doctrine by the fruit it produces rather then any man's opinion.Martian said:
Quote I agree that all of them can be false. Martian,
Your statement that all sources can be false is a good start. The Bible affirms this:Quote The core of man is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things (Jer. 17:9) So we know both from the Bible and from experience that man is going to give us his “truth” with a slant. This is why I don't vote anymore. I don't trust politicians anymore than I trust sources. Do you think of experience as a “source”? I do!
Martian said:
Quote That is why I prefer to judge doctrine by the fruit it produces rather then any man's opinion. What is the “fruit” of your doctrine? Today all we have seen is that you're being pushy even after peace making. You should consider that maybe it is the core of man that is the problem and not blame a doctrine,
Quote For the core of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9) thinker
Hi,
There is only one true seed and that is the Word of God.
Only from that seed can grow a plant that bears useful fruit.
Looking to the doctrines of men to produce fruit is uselessness.Hi,
No matter how man tries to hide it he does not want to be led by the Spirit of God.
First he wants understanding and then he will consider submission to it.
It is around the wrong way-first seek the kingdom.
None can see till born again.Hi thethinker:
You say:
Quote We are not an infant church anymore. We are now a body that is a “mature man”. And we should be acting like it. But we choose to remain like infants. So we “ordain” men to study the Bible for us. It's a shame I tell you. I believe that you hit on the problem, and that is that men are ordaining men to teach them the bible, but it should not be men who are doing the ordaining but God who should ordain those who teach His Word.
By the way, I chose not to the seminary because I did not think that they would give me a degree due to the fact that I do not believe that the doctrine of “trinity” is a misunderstanding of scripture. I do, however, have a B.S. degree in Business Administration.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 13 2009,11:33) Martian said: Quote I agree that all of them can be false. Martian,
Your statement that all sources can be false is a good start. The Bible affirms this:Quote The core of man is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things (Jer. 17:9) So we know both from the Bible and from experience that man is going to give us his “truth” with a slant. This is why I don't vote anymore. I don't trust politicians anymore than I trust sources. Do you think of experience as a “source”? I do!
Martian said:
Quote That is why I prefer to judge doctrine by the fruit it produces rather then any man's opinion. What is the “fruit” of your doctrine? Today all we have seen is that you're being pushy even after peace making. You should consider that maybe it is the core of man that is the problem and not blame a doctrine,
Quote For the core of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9) thinker
I will address you in private on this issue.Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,16:05) Hi thethinker: You say:
Quote We are not an infant church anymore. We are now a body that is a “mature man”. And we should be acting like it. But we choose to remain like infants. So we “ordain” men to study the Bible for us. It's a shame I tell you. I believe that you hit on the problem, and that is that men are ordaining men to teach them the bible, but it should not be men who are doing the ordaining but God who should ordain those who teach His Word.
By the way, I chose not to the seminary because I did not think that they would give me a degree due to the fact that I do not believe that the doctrine of “trinity” is a misunderstanding of scripture. I do, however, have a B.S. degree in Business Administration.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94,
But are you not expecting to be ordained by men as a bishop?942767 said:
Quote I believe that you hit on the problem, and that is that men are ordaining men to teach them the bible, but it should not be men who are doing the ordaining but God who should ordain those who teach His Word. First, we agree that men should not ordain men to teach the Bible. Ordination is altogether unbiblical because it involves the laying on of hands and that has ceased (Heb. 6:1-2). Second, the ordination of men by God also is not needed today because in the new covenant age we do not need to be taught as I have shown from Hebrews. It says that God's law is written in the mind and upon the heart now. The result of this is that “NONE shall teach us”. So why would God ordain men today?
No ordination of any kind is necessary today by men or by God.
thinker
Hi tt,
You seem to trip constantly on your wrong interpretation of Heb6.
But then the evidence you need to make quality decisions is in doubt.You even say JEWS = WORLD
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2009,06:47) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 13 2009,16:05) Hi thethinker: You say:
Quote We are not an infant church anymore. We are now a body that is a “mature man”. And we should be acting like it. But we choose to remain like infants. So we “ordain” men to study the Bible for us. It's a shame I tell you. I believe that you hit on the problem, and that is that men are ordaining men to teach them the bible, but it should not be men who are doing the ordaining but God who should ordain those who teach His Word.
By the way, I chose not to the seminary because I did not think that they would give me a degree due to the fact that I do not believe that the doctrine of “trinity” is a misunderstanding of scripture. I do, however, have a B.S. degree in Business Administration.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi 94,
But are you not expecting to be ordained by men as a bishop?
Hi Nick:I am expecting God to ordain me through an Apostle (a man sent by God). God has spoken to me through a Pastor of a Pentecostal “Oneness doctrine” church that I visited recently telling me that spirit of Saul was trying to prevent this from happening, but he assured me that everything that he has promised me will come to pass.
The difference is that I am not being hired by man as most pastors in the pulpit are hired today. Since they have been hired by man. They can also be fired by man. There is no difference between this and a job in the secular world.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2009,11:44) 942767 said: Quote I believe that you hit on the problem, and that is that men are ordaining men to teach them the bible, but it should not be men who are doing the ordaining but God who should ordain those who teach His Word. First, we agree that men should not ordain men to teach the Bible. Ordination is altogether unbiblical because it involves the laying on of hands and that has ceased (Heb. 6:1-2). Second, the of men ordaination by God also is not needed today because in the new covenant age we do not need to be taught as I have shown from Hebrews. It says that God's law is written in the mind and upon the heart now. The result of this is that “NONE shall teach us”. So why would God ordain men today?
No ordination of any kind is necessary today by men or by God.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Just because you haven't seen the gifts of the spirit in Action in the church doesn't mean that all this has ceased. It has not. The five fold ministry, the Apostle, Prohpet, Pastor, teacher and evangelist, is still prevalent in the church.
You are correct that ordination is done by the laying on of hands. This also has not ceased.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote You even say JEWS = WORLD Jesus said that world = Jews. Read it for yourself,
Quote If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you….But this has happened as it is written in THEIR law, “They hated Me without a cause” (John 15:18-25) There it is Nick! Will you choose to ignore it? The Gentiles had no written law. Therefore, the “world” was exclusively the Jews. The Acts of the apostles bears this out for it was the Jews that gave the apostles all their problems having them beaten and imprisoned. Gentiles did not hate the disciples in the book of Acts.
You apparently come to the Bible with your mind fillled with tradition.
thinker
942767 said:
Quote I am expecting God to ordain me through an Apostle (a man sent by God). Your faith is misplaced Marty. If you do not correct this then you might be angry with God if it should not happen. I've been there.
Quote Just because you haven't seen the gifts of the spirit in Action in the church doesn't mean that all this has ceased. It has not. The five fold ministry, the Apostle, Prohpet, Pastor, teacher and evangelist, is still prevalent in the church. You are correct that ordination is done by the laying on of hands. This also has not ceased.
Hebrews says that NONE shall teach us (Heb. 8:10-11). Therefore, the five fold ministry is not needed now. A small group of Christians can meet in a home and edify each other in the word. The five fold ministry was needed only at the beginning until the law of God was put in the mind and heart of His people.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2009,15:08) Quote You even say JEWS = WORLD Jesus said that world = Jews. Read it for yourself,
Quote If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you….But this has happened as it is written in THEIR law, “They hated Me without a cause” (John 15:18-25) There it is Nick! Will you choose to ignore it? The Gentiles had no written law. Therefore, the “world” was exclusively the Jews. The Acts of the apostles bears this out for it was the Jews that gave the apostles all their problems having them beaten and imprisoned. Gentiles did not hate the disciples in the book of Acts.
You apparently come to the Bible with your mind fillled with tradition.
thinker
I can think of two times in Acts when Gentiles were the persecutors though once the Jews did stir them up. There may be more.Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 17 2009,02:08) Quote You even say JEWS = WORLD Jesus said that world = Jews. Read it for yourself,
Quote If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you….But this has happened as it is written in THEIR law, “They hated Me without a cause” (John 15:18-25)
Thinker,Can you help me with this one? I do not follow your reasoning. The conversation of John 15 started back in John
13 during and after the foot washing example. So, the conversation was being held with Jews, more specifically,
the Apostles.With that in mind, moving now to your quote –
If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you….But this has happened as it is written in THEIR law, “They hated Me without a cause” (John 15:18-25)
It seems “hates you” refers to the twelve or Jews. The “world” hates the Jews. (For many that is a “now” statement also). Then Jesus goes on, If you were of the world but you are not because you are not of the world. Then Jesus goes on I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you I took you out of the world and “the world hates you.”
How do you draw this conclusion –Jesus said that world = Jews. Read it for yourself,
It appears to me Jesus is saying just the opposite and naming Jews in contradistinction to the world rather than as the world.
Help me follow your flow please.
Seeking
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
