- This topic is empty.
- Posts
On these forums we have been introduced to The “Faith Alone” gospel that was introduced to Paul while he was in Prison. It is said this is made clear in Rom.3:21.
I am asking the Bible students that chat on these forums to help me expand on the “faith.” Paul wrote of.
Paul writes –
Quote Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Rom.1:5 The Darby translation renders it, “by whom we have received grace and apostleship in behalf of his
name, for obedience of faith among all the nations”Young's Literal Translation has it -“through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for
obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name”It appears Paul taught that that faith brought forth obedience. What did they obey?
Perhaps Paul had something in mind here – through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for
obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name
(Rom.6:17)or here
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philp.2:12)
Open this up for me, What does this faith walk look like in action? What does this obedience produce? What is obeyed?
Paul says more about this faith here – We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Thess.1:3)
It appears the “faith” Paul wrote about produces “works.”
Did these works merit anything or were they simply a faith response?What do you think – could we be remiss in labeling
“obedience that comes from faith” and “work produced by faith” as “salvation by works.”Seeking
Seeking
What I have thought is faith is not just a mental belief and desire for outward actions, it is more to do with what happens to your heart when you believe and your actions and obedience come from the heart – it has to do with faithfulness to all to do with the Spirit – trying to emulate the nature of Christ.
Quote (meerkat @ Feb. 05 2009,14:24) Seeking What I have thought is faith is not just a mental belief and desire for outward actions, it is more to do with what happens to your heart when you believe and your actions and obedience come from the heart – it has to do with faithfulness to all to do with the Spirit – trying to emulate the nature of Christ.
Thanks meerkat,That was kind of my take and understanding of what Paul was driving at in Eph. 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ Feb. 06 2009,07:44) On these forums we have been introduced to The “Faith Alone” gospel that was introduced to Paul while he was in Prison. It is said this is made clear in Rom.3:21. I am asking the Bible students that chat on these forums to help me expand on the “faith.” Paul wrote of.
Paul writes –
Quote Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Rom.1:5 The Darby translation renders it, “by whom we have received grace and apostleship in behalf of his
name, for obedience of faith among all the nations”Young's Literal Translation has it -“through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for
obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name”It appears Paul taught that that faith brought forth obedience. What did they obey?
Perhaps Paul had something in mind here – through whom we did receive grace and apostleship, for
obedience of faith among all the nations, in behalf of his name
(Rom.6:17)or here
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed–not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence–continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philp.2:12)
Open this up for me, What does this faith walk look like in action? What does this obedience produce? What is obeyed?
Paul says more about this faith here – We continually remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Thess.1:3)
It appears the “faith” Paul wrote about produces “works.”
Did these works merit anything or were they simply a faith response?What do you think – could we be remiss in labeling
“obedience that comes from faith” and “work produced by faith” as “salvation by works.”Seeking
Hi Seeking:Salvation by works would mean that we have obeyed the word of God without sin even unto death just as did our Lord.
Before we became Christians, we were in darkness practicing sin wilfully. Somewhere along our path we heard the gospel preached, and then either then or sometime later we believed God's testimony regarding His Son and came to God with a repentant heart accepting Jesus as Our Lord. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Repentance in the Greek means “a change of mind”, but it is not just a mental assent, but through the change of mind we are changing the direction in which we live our lives. We have been practicing sin wilfully, but now we have confessed Jesus as our Lord which indicates by our confession that we are going to obey his commandments. Water baptism is an action showing that we have believed and have repented. Yes, it is a work or a commandment of our Lord that we should be baptized.
As born again Christians, we obey the commandments of our Lord out of our love for him and for humanity, but since we will make mistakes if only inadvertantly, we are not saved by works. Without the blood to wash away our sins when we fall short, we would not be saved because the scripture states that: “the wages of sin is death (spiritual separation from God) but then the scripture states that: the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
As born again Christians we are under grace which among other things means that when we make a mistake, we can have that sin washed away by the blood of our Lord the moment we repent. We are under the Law of liberty which is the law of love. We obey God's eternal law, the ten commanments, through love, and Jesus is our example. “Geater love hath no man than he should lose his life for his firends”.
Quote Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.For specific commandments try Matthew ch5 through ch 7 and the following in Matthew 25:
Quote Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.Our Commission from our Lord as body of believers is to go into all of the world and share the gospel with whomever will hear, and this is done through our words and through deeds in obedience to his commandments. Not every one has the same talents or resources, but every member of the body should supply whatever he can towards the ultimate goal and that is the salvation of God's children through his glorious gospel.
Quote Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. My desire is God's very best for you and your family.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2009,15:16) Quote Salvation by works would mean that we have obeyed the word of God without sin even unto death just as did our Lord. Yes!!!! And my oedience out of love is NOT works salvation, is it!
Quote Water baptism is an action showing that we have believed and have repented. Yes, it is a work or a commandment of our Lord that we should be baptized. I would gather then that you see baptism as a response of obedience in love and not “works salvation.” I always thought that quite obvious too.
Quote We obey God's eternal law, the ten commanments, through love, and Jesus is our example. Wow!!! And even though they are “old covenant.” But I agree. Jesus summed up the law and the prophets with these words – MT 22:3 -40 Jesus replied: ” `Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
His love gospel is so simple, isn't it.
Quote As born again Christians we are under grace which among other things means that when we make a mistake, we can have that sin washed away by the blood of our Lord the moment we repent. We are under the Law of liberty which is the law of love. “Geater love hath no man than he should lose his life for his firends”. Good word. 1 JN.1:7-9 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Marty, I think you understading and mine a very similar.
Seeking
Hi Seeking:
You say:
Quote His love gospel is so simple, isn't it. And I say, yes, and his love is so wonderful, isn't?
Quote Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. If the motivation for our good works is not love, then they will not be honoured by God.
Again we are not saved by good works, because we fall short from time to time. Isn't it wonderful to know that if we make a mistake we are not condemned? OH, the glorious liberty, the law of love. Without the blood of Jesus to wash away our sins, we would not be saved.
I am happy that we are united in this belief, and hopefully, every one here will understand this so that we can all be united in this one truth even if we may have a different understanding on some other issues.
But although we are not saved by good works, it should be clear that if a person is not obeying the gospel through love, he is not saved.
Quote 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.Love in Chrsit,
MartyI agree that To believe or have faith is not a mental ascension. I like the Hebrew definitions of faith and Believe.
Believe
This verb “aman” is used 110 times in the Old Testament. Let us now look at another passage using this same verb and see what it says.
Genesis 15:6 “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness” ?
The word “believed” is the very same Hebrew verb “aman”. The picture we have from this is that Abram was firm in his devotion to God. Just as a stake planted in firm ground supports the tent even in a storm, Abram will support God even in the storms of life. The question we now ask is, how did Abram remain firm? The verse just before states; ?
Genesis 15:5,6 '[God] took [Abram] outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars–if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the LORD, and He credited it to him as righteousness.'
We usually read this to mean that Abram believed God's promise in verse 5. The problem with this is that the Hebrew verb “aman” means more than just knowing something to be true. Why did God give this promise to Abram?
Genesis 26:4,5 “I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in thr sky and I will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws (Torah in Hebrew)”.
God made this promise to Abram because he was firm in his obedience to God. The Hebrew in Genesis 15:6 does not say Abram believed God, it says he was firm in God. From Genesis 26:5 we see that he was firm in his obedience to God and his Torah.Faith
The Hebrew root aman means firm, something that is supported or secure. This word is used in Isaiah 22:23 for a nail that is fastened to a “secure” place. Derived from this root is the word emun meaning a craftsman. A craftsman is one who is firm and secure in his talent. Also derived from aman is the word emunah meaning firmness, something or someone that is firm in their actions. When the Hebrew word emunah is translated as faith misconceptions of its meaning occur. Faith is usually perceived as a knowing while the Hebrew emunah is a firm action. To have faith in God is not knowing that God exists or knowing that he will act, rather it is that the one with emunah will act with firmness toward God's will.
Hi Martian, thanks for your post.
I believe that the following scripture is also relevant:
Quote Gen 18:19 For I know him(Abraham), that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. Seeking wrote:
Quote It appears Paul taught that that faith brought forth obedience. What did they obey? Seeking,
The “obedience” that Paul spoke about was obedience to the doctrine of grace,Quote But God be thanked that though you were the slaves of sin, you have obeyed from the heart that FORM OF DOCTRINE to which you were delivered (Rom. 6:17). It was obedience to the doctrine of grace by faith and not obedience to the law. Paul had said in chapter 5 that it was Christ's obedience to the law that justifies a man or a woman:
Quote For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience the many were made righteous (5:19). Obedience to the law cannot save us. The law can only condemn. Christ obeyed the law IN OUR BEHALF. Our “obedience” involves our yielding to the principle that Christ paid it all! It is this “doctrine” that we must obey.
In Christ,
thinkerQuote (942767 @ Feb. 05 2009,16:05) But although we are not saved by good works, it should be clear that if a person is not obeying the gospel through love, he is not saved. Quote 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jo 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Marty,Thanks for the reply. Couldn't be plainer, could it!
I'll join you in that prayer.
Seeking
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 05 2009,17:08) Seeking wrote: Quote It appears Paul taught that that faith brought forth obedience. What did they obey? Seeking,
The “obedience” that Paul spoke about was obedience to the doctrine of grace,Quote But God be thanked that though you were the slaves of sin, you have obeyed from the heart that FORM OF DOCTRINE to which you were delivered (Rom. 6:17). It was obedience to the doctrine of grace by faith and not obedience to the law. Paul had said in chapter 5 that it was Christ's obedience to the law that justifies a man or a woman:
Quote For as by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience the many were made righteous (5:19). Obedience to the law cannot save us. The law can only condemn. Christ obeyed the law IN OUR BEHALF. Our “obedience” involves our yielding to the principle that Christ paid it all! It is this “doctrine” that we must obey.
In Christ,
thinker
I DON'T SEE THAT ANYONE WHO HAS POSTED HERE HAS SAID ANYTHING ELSE.THANKS FOR ADDING TO WHAT WAS ALREADY SAID.
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote I DON'T SEE THAT ANYONE WHO HAS POSTED HERE HAS SAID ANYTHING ELSE. THANKS FOR ADDING TO WHAT WAS ALREADY SAID.
On the contrary. Some of you are teaching that we are required to be baptized. And you assume that by “faith alone” I mean that we shouldn't do good deeds as Christians. By “faith alone” I mean today that we are justified by faith alone and not by works.
Israel at the beginning was required to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). If baptism was required for the remission of sins then works salvation had not been abolished yet.
Peter was addressing Israel.
Quote Men of Israel, hear these words….Then Peter said to THEM, Repent and let every one ofYOU be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and YOU shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:22-38) Peter explicitly commanded Israel to repent and be baptized for salvation. Yet Christians engage in a logical fallacy that is called the Fallacy of Generalization. Christians apply Peter's command to all men of all races without no exegetical bases whatsoever.
The proof that baptism was not required of all men is shown from Paul's statement in Romans 2 where he said that the Gentiles were being justified by their obedience to the revelation of God in nature. Gentiles were being justified their obedience to the law that was written in their hearts. The law written in their hearts knew nothing of baptism
Quote The doers of the law shall be justified….For when the Gentiles, who do not have the [written] law, by [the testimony of] nature do those things in the law, although these not having the law, are a law unto themselves, who show the law written in their hearts (Rom. 2:13-16) There it is! At that time both Jews and Gentiles were being justified by works. So justification by works was in place for both Jew and Gentile but the works were different for each. The Jew had to obey the revelation he had which included the command to be baptized. The Gentile had to obey the revelation he had which knew nothing of baptism. This is not true today for Paul received direct revelation from Christ Himself that justification for all men was to occur APART from the law (Rom. 3:21).
It was APART from the written law in the case of the Jew. And it was APART from the law as revealed in nature in reference to the Gentile. Many try to manipulate the epistle of James to say that justification is still by works today. But James was written long before Paul received his faith alone gospel. There is no reference at all in the book of James to Christ's death. This would be very strange had James' epistle been contemporaneous with the epistles of Paul and Peter and John.
Therefore, James was written very early while the church was still under the old covenant. James' justification by faith plus works was true when it was written. But Paul's justification by faith alone principle is true both now and forever.
We may learn from James as we do the old testament books. It has relevance for today like the old testament books. But doctrinally it is Paul that is to be obeyed
Quote But God be thanked that though you were the slaves of sin, yet you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered (Rom. 6:17) That “form of doctrine” is that justification now is APART from law.
blessings,
thinkerthethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Quote On the contrary. Some of you are teaching that we are required to be baptized. And you assume that by “faith alone” I mean that we shouldn't do good deeds as Christians. By “faith alone” I mean today that we are justifiedby faith alone and not by works. Here is what has been said on this forum –
Salvation by works would mean that we have obeyed the word of God without sin even unto death just as did our Lord.
We have been practicing sin wilfully, but now we have confessed Jesus as our Lord which indicates by our confession that we are going to obey his commandments. Water baptism is an action showing that we have believed and have repented.
[/I]As born again Christians, we obey the commandments of our Lord out of our love for him and for humanity, but since we will make mistakes if only inadvertantly, we are not saved by works. Without the blood to wash away our sins when we fall short, we would not be saved…
Thinker, I cannot speak for those as to what they mean by a given statement – but you wrote “On the contrary. Some of you are teaching that we are required to be baptized.”
By saying you, you include me. Elsewhere you have denied me my statements as to what I believe and have strongly inferred I was dualistic.
My simple statement, without citing scripture (we already are familiar with them) is this –
1) We are save by grace as a free gift – no works.
2) When I err and am repentent the blood of Jesus
continues to cleanse me.3) In my walk I may wish to do or not do many things
eat meat or not, go to a church, take communion,
be baptized, give some of my money, sing, visit rest
homes, etc. but, Thinker, be clear that I do none of
it to be saved. I do it because I am saved and it is my
love response for the gift(s) given me by Jesus.
I grant you that same grace in your walk with Jesus. Do you
believe something is “works” salvation and elect not to do it,
don't. I honor it is Jesus you are striving to follow. I would ask that you grant me that same grace. If you elect not to extend me that grace, I say with Paul –I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
(1Cor. 4:3-5).Clear!?
Blessings to you,
Seeking
Seeking said:
Quote By saying you, you include me. Seeking,
I love you maaan! But you have said that we are required to be baptized.Quote Elsewhere you have denied me my statements as to what I believe and have strongly inferred I was dualistic. I'm trying to provoke you to think it all out. I was “dualistic” once myself. I am a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute which was only a three year school then . So I went on to finish my bachelor's degree at the Bethany Bible College. After that I took several courses for credit at a Presbyterian Theological Seminary (no degree). And I took two years of Greek like you. In my long journey I have found that men are bent on interpreting the Bible and even the original languages according to their own learned paradigm. And they hold to doctrines that are inconsistent.
But for me inconsistency is a really, really big deal. I can't dwell with it. Contradictions nag me to the point I cannot sleep. I want to know what God said and I firmly believe that if He contradicts Himself then He is not worthy of my faith and obedience. So I took some courses in Logic and Philosophy at my local Community College. One principle they taught me has stuck with me and it is this: Two contradictory propositions cannot be true in the same sense and at the same time.
Therefore, if Paul and James speak about justification in a different sense, then they can both be true at the same time. But if they speak in the same sense then the one wrote BEFORE the other for time is in accord with logic. Time is chronological. There is a saying in logic which goes like this: “Time resolves some discrepancies”. Since James says not a word of Christ's death, I conclude that he wrote long before the other apostles and he was therefore writing to God's people while they were still under the old covenant. Even if you don't agree with me you must give me credit for being consistent.
I strive to remove all inconsistency from my thinking. And I am only exhorting you to do the same though I have miserably failed to be loving. I ask for your forgiveness. But I must ask you to consider that you might be “dualistic” in your thinking.
your friend,
thinkerQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 06 2009,10:06)
Thinker,Quote I love you maaan! But you have said that we are required to be baptized. I do not recall saying that. Perhaps you can direct me to the post. Perhaps you felt I inferred that. What I believe is
that man must, convicted by the Spirit – not me, recognize his seperation from God because of sin. He must acknowledge that he cannot do enough or anything to remove that sin. Only the pure blood of Jesus can wash it away, which was accomplished in His sacrifice. Man must, by faith, accept that also and accept the grace offered salvation Christ gives.Jews, Pharisees, Saducees, Paul at one time, Peter, Baptists,
Pentecostals, Lutherans, Luther, Calvin – and on and on have
all developed their preferences that, all claim, were gleaned from the same Bible. In oreder to be a part of their clan you had to develop their understanding. No liberty although many said they were under the law of liberty.[/I]I will acknowledge that the acceptance I spoke of above
is necessary for salvation. But, beyond that one may develop many practices that they feel are an integral part of their walk. I will allow that. I believe Paul did. In fact Paul at one time said, “refrain from meat sacrificed to idols.” Later he said, “we know that an idol is nothing”. [/I]Repeating –
In my walk I may wish to do or not do many things
eat meat or not, go to a church, take communion,
be baptized, give some of my money, sing, visit rest
homes, etc. but, Thinker, be clear that I do none of
it to be saved. I do it because I am saved and it is my
love response for the gift(s) given me by Jesus.I grant you that same grace in your walk with Jesus. Do you believe something is “works” salvation and elect not to do it,don't. I honor it is Jesus you are striving to follow. I would ask that you grant me that same grace. If you elect not to extend me that grace
Quote Since James says not a word of Christ's death, I conclude that he wrote long before the other apostles and he was therefore writing to God's people while they were still under the old covenant. You mention dating. Can you give me a date span and prison location when Paul received the “Faith Alone” gospel please.
I have trouble washing your statements quoted above with dates. I understand these dates, approximate as they are,
to be widely accepted times of writing – Romans AD57 -1Cor. AD55 – Gal. AD48-53 – EPH. AD60 – Philip. AD 53-55 – Col.AD60 – Thess. AD51 – Tim. Titus mid to late sixties. Without going further, James was appaerently written AD 50-60. I don't follow that he was not contemporary with Paul. I addressed this in an earlier post.Quote I strive to remove all inconsistency from my thinking. I commend you for that. I must add that I find it hard to do at times.
Quote Since James says not a word of Christ's death, I conclude that he wrote long before the other apostles and he was therefore writing to God's people while they were still under the old covenant. In accordance with logic, could your conclusion be wrong?
While doing police investigations people would write out their accounts. Invariably the would include different things and omit others. My assumption never was that one must be lying or hadn't been there at all.While I appreciate your concen for all of us, I assume, I am reminded of the numerous varying opinions, doctrines, etc. I have found that most think no ones logic is logical but there own.
Regarding your sleepless nights and frustrations, someone once suggested to me – you are not Jesus, chances are you will not save the world from itself.”
Question – If I develop a theory and approach to Bible study and the way that I present my findings to others that contardicts what the Bible teaches regarding love – would it be logical to abanadon, or at least modify that approach?
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.
Blessings,
Seeking
thethinker,Feb. wrote:[/quote]
Thinker,I hasten to add to my last post that I ask about dating, logic, etc. to learn.
Also, you mentioned elsewhere that you correct the “Pastor” and “Elders” if you feel, they are espousing or allowing to be espoused error.” Pray tell what church you attend where those people will allow such dialogue. I would like to find one.
Seeking
Hi S,
You say
“In my walk I may wish to do or not do many things
eat meat or not, go to a church, take communion,
be baptized, give some of my money, sing, visit rest
homes, etc. but, Thinker, be clear that I do none of
it to be saved. I do it because I am saved and it is my
love response for the gift(s) given me by Jesus.”So you may or may not decide to be baptised?
Whom do you serve?Lord Jesus said you must be born again of water and the Spirit.
In baptism we are clothed in Christ[gal]Some at the wedding feast are shocked to be thrown out because they are not appropriately attired.
Greetings Seeking,
I may be in error for saying that you personally have required baptism. I have been discoursing with so many about the subject that I lost track. I think you did say that baptism is still in effect. On another thread Marty told Gene that he is not right with God concerning the baptism issue. Where do “Christians” get the idea that they can tell a man that he is not right with God? And now Nick in the thread immediately above says that one is not “appropriately attired” for the wedding feast if he is not baptized. Can you believe that! Jesus was talking about being clothed in His righteousness.This legalism and judgmentalism is always the result when “Christians” carry over anything from the old covenant into the new covenant. Jesus told us that the world would hate us. But we shouldn't give the world valid reasons to hate us. When we judge each other we give the world a valid reason to hate us.
You asked about the church I attend. I attend a Presbyterian church that believes in and practises baptism but I just let it go. It is the official doctrine of the denomination so I just keep my mouth shut. But I discovered that the pastor and elders require new members to “tithe” no less than ten percent of their incomes when joining the church. There is no such requirement to God's new covenant people. So I emailed the pastor and gave him what the Scriptures say on the matter. He pretty much dismissed it. So I sent an email to my elder requesting a meeting about it. In my email I gave the Biblical case that giving is altogether voluntary under the new covenant because Christ had fulfilled the law of Moses in reference to tithing. I wanted the elders have my thesis before the meeting.
The meeting got pretty tense at times. But I maintained my position on the matter from Scripture and they maintained theirs. I told them that I believe that they are in violation of God's new covenant. I actually said the words, “You are in violation…”
The meeting ended very well. But before the meeting ended I told them that I would challenge them again if I feel that they are violating God's new covenant. Then I asked if this is going to be a problem and one elder replied saying, “No, it's your responsibility.” Another elder in his closing prayer even thanked God for my exercising my right to dissent and challenge the leadership. Afterwards they all approached me to embrace me. Though I disagree with their requiring new members to tithe I respect them for hearing my complaint. But you might have a problem with my church because in reference to justification we confess “faith alone”.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 06 2009,14:58)
Nick,I have read your rhetoric with many on these subjects. I honor that a walk with Jesus is progressive in faith, obedience, understanding, and performance. Many enjoy to think they have everything sorted out point in time and extend no room for growth in understanding.
You referenced, “So you may or may not decide to be baptised?”
Do you deny that that is a choice given to all? It seems you would also say, “wrong choice, hell bound.” Do I read you wrong or is that true? I mentioned once to some that their is no indication, when Apollos learned the difference between John verses Jesus baptism, that he ran to find water. They said, and I would think you would say, “he had to have” thus they add to what the text discloses.
You also mentioned, “Lord Jesus said you must be born again of water and the Spirit.”
In the context Nichodemus clearly thought Jesus was referring to physical birth with his reference to “water birth.” Jesus said you must experience Spiritual birth also. Many teach that baptism is meant by the water birth. I don't see that.
And you said, “Some at the wedding feast are shocked to be thrown out because they are not appropriately attired.”
Others will say to Him I taught, prophesied, etc. and He will answer, “I never knew you.”
Then you ask,” whom do you serve.”
You may have read that I wrote elsewhere in this post –
My simple statement, without citing scripture (we already are familiar with them) is this –1) We are save by grace as a free gift – no works.
2) When I err and am repentent the blood of Jesus
continues to cleanse me.3) In my walk I may wish to do or not do many things
eat meat or not, go to a church, take communion,
be baptized, give some of my money, sing, visit rest
homes, etc. but, Thinker, be clear that I do none of
it to be saved. I do it because I am saved and it is my
love response for the gift(s) given me by Jesus.I grant you that same grace in your walk with Jesus. Do you
believe something is “works” salvation and elect not to do it,
don't. I honor it is Jesus you are striving to follow. I would ask that you grant me that same grace. If you elect not to extend me that grace, I say with Paul –I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
(1Cor. 4:3-5).Blessings in your walk,
Seeking
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
