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Quote (david @ July 19 2008,18:09) Quote What scripture says that we CAN NOT study with and share scriptural truths with a disfellowshipped one? None use those exact words. The principal is certainly found in scripture. Why don't you list the scriptures invovled.
I did…in my original postQuote (david @ July 19 2008,18:07) Quote “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship. Quote He believes that Jesus is God's Son and His Christ, and confesses Jesus as his Lord, therefore, he is a Christian.
94, if you could comment on the scripture. Hymaneaus believed these things, therefore he's “a Christian” as you say. Yet, how did that go for him?
Your original question was about DK and you stated that sinning willfully was what meritted disfellowshiping. Yet, how do you respond to this scripture?
Hi David:How does what Dk has done relate to what Hymenaeus and Philetus did?
Quote (942767 @ July 20 2008,05:46) Quote (david @ July 19 2008,18:07) Quote “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship. Quote He believes that Jesus is God's Son and His Christ, and confesses Jesus as his Lord, therefore, he is a Christian.
94, if you could comment on the scripture. Hymaneaus believed these things, therefore he's “a Christian” as you say. Yet, how did that go for him?
Your original question was about DK and you stated that sinning willfully was what meritted disfellowshiping. Yet, how do you respond to this scripture?
Hi David:How does what Dk has done relate to what Hymenaeus and Philetus did?
My point exactly…He feels that I am an apostate and an anti-christ and worthy of shunning
Hi DK:
Keep trusting and obeying the Lord.
Quote Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me.
Psa 118:6 The LORD [is] on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?God Bless
Quote Hi David: How does what Dk has done relate to what Hymenaeus and Philetus did?
Were they practicing sin willfully as you say, 94? What were they doing, 94?
Quote My point exactly… He feels that I am an apostate and an anti-christ and worthy of shunning
I didn't say that in my post. 94 asserted that sinning willfuly was the reason for anyone to be disfellowshiped. I pointed out how things went for Hymaneaus and Philetus.
Quote (david @ July 19 2008,15:05) Quote Hi David: Yes, ex-communication is scriptural if someone is practicing sin wilfully, but not simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.
–94
94, while practicing sin willfully will get you disfellowshiped, true, notice this scripture DK also quoted from a JW's article:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
94, you say that ex-communication should not be practiced “simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.”I don't think Paul or the earliest form of Christianity agree with you.
See the scripture I pointed out.
Hymenaeus was an apostate in the first century. Hymenaeus was identified by Paul as a blasphemer, full of “empty speeches that violate what is holy.” In his deviation from the truth, Hymenaeus, along with a certain Philetus, taught false doctrine, subverting the faith of some. One of their false teachings was that ‘the resurrection had already occurred’ in their day. Evidently this was their teaching: that the resurrection was merely a spiritual one, of a symbolic kind, and that the dedicated Christians had already had their resurrection, that this was all there was to the matter and there was no further resurrection in the future under God’s Messianic Kingdom.—2Ti 2:18; compare 1Co 15:12-23.
My point, again 94, is this:
In Paul’s first letter to Timothy, Hymenaeus’ name is associated with another apostate, Alexander. The apostle states that he had handed Hymenaeus and Alexander “over to Satan,” evidently referring to Paul’s expelling or disfellowshipping them from the congregation.—1Ti 1:18-20; 2Ti 2:16, 17.What was Hymaneaus expelled for doing?
Hi David:
Quote 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.These scriptures do not say that they disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection but they were preaching that it was already past overthrowing the faith of those who serving the Lord waiting for the resurrection.
I don't know what Alexander did. The Apostle Paul speaks of Alexander the Coppersmith in the scripture below:
Quote 2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: I don't know if this is the same Alexander, but the Apostle Paul states that Alexander did him much evil. He did not say what he did as far as I can tell.
DK is not practicing sin wilfully. He just disagrees with some of the doctrines that the JW's teach, and he has done the right thing by going to the elders and discussing these differences with them.
It is just like most of Christendom teaches the doctrine of “trinity”. Many go along with this teaching just because the church has been teaching this for 2000 years. They don't understand it, and yet they just go along with it. I went to the pastors of the church where I worship and told them that I had a different understanding than what they teach. I am not going to lie telling them that I agree with that doctrine or others that they teach to be a member of their church. We are all responsible to God for what we teach. I believe that DK is a Christian striving to obey the Lord. As long as he is doing that, he cannot be ex-communicated from the body of Christ.
God Bless
These scriptures do not say that they disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection but they were preaching that it was already past overthrowing the faith of those who serving the Lord waiting for the resurrection.
–9494, Well, yes, it IS saying they disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection, at least, as Paul and the other Christians believed. They were teaching people that the resurrection had already taken place, apparently meaning that it was some sort of symbolic resurrection and hence, that there was no literal resurrection in the future. This was false according to true Christian teaching. And, as you noted, they were subverting the faith of some–“overthrowing” other's faith. This was no little thing. Hence, Hymaneaus was removed from the congregation, according to Paul–1Ti 1:18-20; 2Ti 2:16, 17.
Therefore, one can be removed or expelled from the congregation if they teach contrary–if they form divisions, if they subvert other's faith, etc.
At least, according to the example set out in the earliest Christianity, they can.
– and should, David.
A community is a community because of its shared beliefs/ideas – which they embody. A community's ideas (which are communicated by words) are its barrier – and its rule of living: anything in disagreement has to find another place to live, since they don't agree and continue to subvert the words, the authority who presides over the words, and the way of living they desire. Such people do not belong.
In this case, the ideas are from the Father Himself – and the Community is the Community (Kingdom) of Heaven.
To go against His ideas is to put you in a place to either be a)corrected or b)ejected from the said community, since you do not agree with the Mind of the community, and you go about causing rifts – just because you want attention: 3 John 1:9.There is space for repentance, especially in these days, since the level of faith is nowhere near the levels once held, but we are coming to a day where if churches do not “discipline” members by tossing them out, those “little foxes” SoS 2:15+Luke 13:32 will destroy the entire vine, like Achan also did: Josh 7.
What is more than this is the rule Jesus put forth: if someone is not willing to forgive, talk with him in private; if not, take two or three witnesses and ask him to forgive you in private again, but if he is still not willing to forgive, take him before the congregation and tell them “this person will not forgive” – and that from then on, he should be treated like an outsider, and like a turncoat: a backstabber, like Judas. In my estimation, unforgiveness is the character of the Son of Perdition – Heb 12:5+Deut 29:17-20.
JHi H,
I agree,
if of course the denomination has any connection with the Body of Christ
which is not divided into denominations is it?No one knows where all the believers are; only God does. In the Old Testament, taking a census had certain restrictions and one time Satan rose up against Israel and caused David to number the sons of Israel 1 Chr 21:1 — it is not for us to know, since we are not in charge of those people.
There are true believers and servants of God everywhere; in the least-expected places, and sometimes where you expect them to be, they are not truly faithful to God.
Denominations mean nothing to God; His love goes straight through them! haha They are barriers put up by men and are necessary 1 Cor 11:19; however, denominations tend to hold certain teachings, which they spread over their entire congregation; therefore, it is up to each individual in any congregation to test all things, keep that which is good; and to follow Jesus privately and bring their light to edify their congregation, if possible, unto following Jesus in a greater manner – and not traditions of men, which are taught in every denomination along with the good stuff. Since this is the case, we must also consider the fact that there are other parts of the Body of Christ with viable things to say; just as we have viable doctrines taught to us by God. This, ofcourse must be done in the spirit; not with words, but “as unto” Jesus Christ…
It shouldn't be this way, but it is, because when someone teaches, it is like the Kingdom of Heaven, like a dragnet – Matt 13:47 – taking in both good and bad fish.Hi H,
I agree.But where they are does not define that denomination as the Body of Christ does it?
If it did then that would define the undivided Body as that denomination surely?
Those who are found within the Whore of Bablylon are told to leave.Rev18
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
That is probably the voice of truth calling people to repent for the virtue of its truth.
In every denomination, there are those who despite the circumstances find a way to know Jesus, and those who do not. Example: I read the book from the current Pope, called “Europe” and it has the presence of Jesus so palpably, so wonderfully, but I know some Catholics who do not know Jesus. There are some Christians, as well, who know Jesus, and some who do not. There are some Jehovah Witnesses who know God and some who do not. The same can be said for any denomination, so that you have the true servants scattered throughout the earth and in every denomination.
Hi H,
I think the point God makes is that men should choose his service over that of self appointed men.
We can have only one spiritual Master and need no additional mediators or “spiritual authorities”Quote (david @ July 22 2008,12:11) These scriptures do not say that they disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection but they were preaching that it was already past overthrowing the faith of those who serving the Lord waiting for the resurrection.
–9494, Well, yes, it IS saying they disagreed with the doctrine of the resurrection, at least, as Paul and the other Christians believed. They were teaching people that the resurrection had already taken place, apparently meaning that it was some sort of symbolic resurrection and hence, that there was no literal resurrection in the future. This was false according to true Christian teaching. And, as you noted, they were subverting the faith of some–“overthrowing” other's faith. This was no little thing. Hence, Hymaneaus was removed from the congregation, according to Paul–1Ti 1:18-20; 2Ti 2:16, 17.
Therefore, one can be removed or expelled from the congregation if they teach contrary–if they form divisions, if they subvert other's faith, etc.
At least, according to the example set out in the earliest Christianity, they can.
Hi David:Yes, you can expel him from your organization, but not from the body of Christ.
All of us here on this forum except for you and him are not members of the JW church, and so, by your reasoning we also should be ex-communicated from the body of Christ even though we have been born again and are striving to obey the commandments that have come to us from God through our Lord Jesus, God's Son and His Christ.
The following is on the same order of what you want to do to him:
Quote Jhn 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. Ex-communication is valid when someone is practicing sin wilfully and does not want to repent. DK disagrees with some of JW's doctrines and I also disagree with some of what you teach. All of us are responsible to God for what we teach.
Why don't you get on your knees and go to God in prayer asking Him if your case for ex-communicating him is valid or not. I am sure that He will answer you.
God Bless
Quote Hi David: Yes, you can expel him from your organization, but not from the body of Christ.
My only point was that scripturally, a person can be expelled from the congregation for doing such things.
Quote Ex-communication is valid when someone is practicing sin wilfully and does not want to repent. Right, or as scripture has shown, one can be removed or expelled from the congregation if they teach contrary–if they form divisions, if they subvert other's faith, etc. (1Ti 1:18-20; 2Ti 2:16, 17)
Quote Why don't you get on your knees and go to God in prayer asking Him if your case for ex-communicating him is valid or not. First, no one is doing that. And I'm certainly not ex-communicating him. HE began this thread, and the thread isn't about ex-communicating him, it's about whether JW's follow this practice scriptureally.
As far as I can tell, they do. And yes, the example of Hymenaeus obviously demonstrates that a person can be disfellowshiped scripturally for teaching contrary.
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 07 2008,15:18) JW's practice the expelling and excommunicating of members who sin unrepentedly. They say that in light of the scriptures listed below, that we should not even SPEAK or EAT with someone who has been “expelled” from the JW congregation…even your relatives…that includes children (the “rules” are softened somewhat if the child or relative is in the home) They are also taught to treat people who leave the organization VOLUNTARILY over doctrinal issues the same as the way they would treat a unreprentant murderer..basically shun them…”treat them as dead” (yes that is a quote)
THey say that we are not supposed to pray with people who have been expelled or discuss “spiritual things'' with them..
We are not even to say a greeting to them. Not even “hello”.
I ask…is this view of ex-communication scriptural…
The scriptures they use to justify their position are as follows:
1Co 5:5, 11, 13
1 John 5:19
2Jo 9, 10.
1Ti 1:19, 20
Yes, the JW should practice this; however, they also ought to be teachable, themselves; not biased towards any tradition, but malleable according to the Word of Truth.
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