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Hi david,
Disfellowshiping can occur with Golf Clubs and among Rotarians too.
Disfellowshiping scripturally is only relevant within the body of ChristQuote (david @ July 18 2008,13:30) Does anyone here actually wish to discuss the scriptures about ex-communication? So, DK, you called me a liar. You have yet to point out where i lied?
Ex-communication is the New Testament version of what they did to Achan in Joshua.
Some congregations fall because of the “little foxes”.
“Remove the wicked man from among you.”
Jesus said that a person who will not forgive, he must be expelled and treated as they would treat a tax-collector: as a person who had turned their backs on their community.
Forgiveness is EXTREMELY important, and very basic, and proud people like me can very easily forget it, chasing after big theologies that are more important-sounding, but God uses the base things to bring the impressive things to nought…
Jesus told a parable about forgiveness, and it ends like this: “So, when you have done all that I have commanded you, say 'We are unprofitable servants, for we have only done what was commanded us.'” Meaning that forgiveness is not meager, but part of our foundation. Without it, you won't go anywhere, because your ego is still very much alive.The Apostle Paul expounded on it out of Deut. 29 by saying “Lest there be a root of bitterness springing up among you… and by it, many be defiled.”
Remember that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. Unforgiving brothers must be ousted; they open the door for satan to come into the church, like a sexual disease spreads amidst the promiscuous' many lovers.
These people, we are not to discuss anything with, eat with, or even acknowledge, but treat them as outsiders.This is actually the nature of the Son of Perdition: he will not forgive. He is in alignment with his father, the accuser, and he causes wormwood and bitterness (Deut 29). That is, the star that falls down in the fourth trumpet in Rev 8; who is given the key to the bottomless pit in Rev 9:1 for the fifth trumpet, (1st of 3 woes pronounced after this star falls).
Let us not forget that the archetypical Son of Perdition, Judas, also was “of the 12” – that is, of the government of God – and this new Son of Perdition will also have had a personal relationship with Jesus, which is backed up by biblical type and shadowing and also when it describes the star falling “burning as a lamp”:
“You are the light of the world, a city on a hill cannot be hidden. Does a man light a lamp and hide it under a bushel? No, I tell you, he puts it on a lampstand, and it gives light to the whole room.”
The fact that he is a “star” represents the fact that he is a son of God. (See also: Daniel 12:3)
We see the presence of wormwood and bitterness in connection with his falling to the earth in Rev 8:11. I will prove that the sons of God are called “stars” and destroy the theory of the “Assumption of Mary” – falsely proven by twisting the meaning of Rev 12 around – which speaks of a great “sign” in heaven (meaning, the sign is not literal, but symbolic): a woman in heaven, who gave birth to (Jesus), who has a crown of 12 stars: the 12 “stars” are the sons of God (angels) who are standing guard at the 12 gates of “the Jerusalem that is above” Gal 4:26 + Rev 21:12.
Angels are called sons of God because they are led by the Spirit of God. Rom 8:14Quote (david @ July 18 2008,13:30) Does anyone here actually wish to discuss the scriptures about ex-communication? So, DK, you called me a liar. You have yet to point out where i lied?
The “lie” David is you insinuating that the reason you can't find the qoute is because its not there…Bottom line David..JW's are told to not even say “hello” to a ex-communicated one….I hate to do this..but here goes:
Official Jehovah's Witnesses Media Relations Web Site, August 28, 2003
Beliefs—Frequently Asked Question
Do you shun former members?…Those who formally say they do not want to be part of the organization any more are also avoided. What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still Jehovah's Witnesses? The spiritual ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings can continue. As for disfellowshipped relatives not living in the same household, Jehovah's Witnesses apply the Bible's counsel: “Quit mixing with them.” (1 Corinthians 5:11) Disfellowshipped individuals may continue to attend religious services and, if they wish, they may receive spiritual counsel from the elders with a view to their being restored. They are always welcome to return to the faith if they reject the improper course of conduct for which they were disfellowshipped.Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock (1991), p.103
[This book is available only to active elders]
Proper View of Disfellowshipped and Disassociated Persons
If an individual is trying to influence others to take an unscriptural course or is trying to deceive others, all should avoid him; he is described at 2. John 9-11.
Disfellowshipped and disassociated ones are shunned by those who wish to have a good relationship with Jehovah.
Basic Scriptural counsel on the proper view of those who have been expelled from the congregation is set out in the apostle Paul's words at 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.
John counsels against speaking to or associating with a disfellowshipped or disassociated person so as not to be “a sharer in his wicked works.” (2 John 11 )
Watchtower 1988 April 15 pp.26-31 Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit
Paragraph-10″ By also avoiding persons who have deliberately disassociated themselves, Christians are protected from possible critical, unappreciative, or even apostate views”
Paragraph-14″ The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: “Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man.””
Paragraph 22-“For example, on page 26 we noted Lynette's comment about her choice 'to cut herself off completely from all association' with her disfellowshipped sister Margaret. She and her Christian relatives 'believed that Jehovah's way is best.' And it is!”
Here you go david
Watchtower Apr 1, 1986 p.30-31 Questions From Readers
Questions From Readers
• Why have Jehovah's Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views. Even some clergymen disagree with basic teachings of their church, yet they remain in good standing. In nearly all the denominations of Christendom, there are modernists and fundamentalists who greatly disagree with one another as to the inspiration of the Scriptures.
However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same. Why not? Many of such denominations allow widely divergent views among the clergy and the laity because they feel they cannot be certain as to just what is Bible truth. They are like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus' day who were unable to speak as persons having authority, which is how Jesus taught. (Matthew 7:29) Moreover, to the extent that religionists believe in interfaith, they are obligated not to take divergent beliefs too seriously.
But taking such a view of matters has no basis in the Scriptures. Jesus did not make common cause with any of the sects of Judaism. Jews of those sects professed to believe in the God of creation and in the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly the Law of Moses. Still, Jesus told his disciples to “watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” (Matthew 16:11, 12; 23:15) Note also how strongly the apostle Paul stated matters: “Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed.” Paul then repeated that statement for emphasis.—Galatians 1:8, 9.
Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity, as Paul makes clear at 1 Corinthians 1:10: “I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.” (New International Version) At Ephesians 4:3-6 he further stated that Christians should be “earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons.”
Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each one's independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all! Through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God provided for this purpose “some as apostles, . . . some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers . . . until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man.” Yes, with the help of such ministers, congregational unity-oneness in teaching and activity-could be and would be possible.—Ephesians 4:11-13.
Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah's Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah's sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today 'entrusted with all of Jesus' earthly interests,' which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ's foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15-12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ's Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus' “other sheep.”-John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
Similarly, the apostle John termed as antichrists those who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh. They may well have believed in God, in the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus as God's Son, and so on. But on this point, that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, they disagreed and thus were termed “antichrist.” John goes on to say regarding those holding such variant views: “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.”—2 John 7, 10, 11.
Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation. (See Titus 3:10, 11.) Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: “Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire.” (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God's Word.
Here you go again David:
Watchtower 1981 Sept 15 p.20-26 Disfellowshiping—How to View It
11 The expelled person is not a mere man of the world who has not known God nor pursued a godly way of life. Rather, he has known the way of truth and righteousness, but he has left that way and unrepentantly pursued sin to the point of having to be expelled. So he is to be treated differently.
12 Yes, the Bible commands Christians not to keep company or fellowship with a person who has been expelled from the congregation. Thus “disfellowshiping” is what Jehovah's Witnesses appropriately call the expelling and subsequent shunning of such an unrepentant wrongdoer. Their refusal to fellowship with an expelled person on any spiritual or social level reflects loyalty to God's standards and obedience to his command at 1 Corinthians 5:11, 13.
14 One who has been a true Christian might renounce the way of the truth, stating that he no longer considers himself to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses or wants to be known as one. When this rare event occurs, the person is renouncing his standing as a Christian, deliberately disassociating himself from the congregation.
15 Or, a person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of an organization whose objective is contrary to the Bible, and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Compare Revelation 19:17-21; Isaiah 2:4.) So if one who was a Christian chose to join those who are disapproved of God, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he had disassociated himself and is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
16 Persons who make themselves “not of our sort” by deliberately rejecting the faith and beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses should appropriately be viewed and treated as are those who have been disfellowshiped for wrongdoing.
17 Though Christians enjoy spiritual fellowship when they discuss or study the Bible with their brothers or interested persons, they would not want to have such fellowship with an expelled sinner (or one who has renounced the faith and beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, disassociating himself). The expelled person has been 'rejected,' being “self-condemned” because of “sinning,” and those in the congregation both accept God's judgment and uphold it. Disfellowshiping, however, implies more than ceasing to have spiritual fellowship.—Titus 3:10, 11.
18 Paul wrote: “Quit mixing in company . . . , not even eating with such a man.” (1 Cor. 5:11) A meal is a time of relaxation and socializing. Hence, the Bible here rules out social fellowship, too, such as joining an expelled person in a picnic or party, ball game, trip to the beach or theater, or sitting down to a meal with him. (The special problems involving a relative who has been disfellowshiped are considered in the following article.)
20 Other problems arise in connection with business or employment. What if you were employed by a man who now was expelled by the congregation, or you employed a person to whom that happened? What then? If you were contractually or financially obliged to continue the business relationship for the present, you certainly would now have a different attitude toward the disfellowshiped individual. Discussion of business matters with him or contact on the job might be necessary, but spiritual discussions and social fellowship would be things of the past. In that way you could demonstrate your obedience to God and have a protective barrier for yourself.
23 As distinct from some personal “enemy” or worldly man in authority who opposed Christians, a disfellowshiped or disassociated person who is trying to promote or justify his apostate thinking or is continuing in his ungodly conduct is certainly not one to whom to wish “Peace.” (1 Tim. 2:1, 2) And we all know from our experience over the years that a simple “Hello” to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshiped person?
25 All faithful Christians need to take to heart the serious truth that God inspired John to write: “He that says a greeting to [an expelled sinner who is promoting an erroneous teaching or carrying on ungodly conduct] is a sharer in his wicked works.”—2 John 11.
Quote (david @ July 18 2008,13:30) Does anyone here actually wish to discuss the scriptures about ex-communication? So, DK, you called me a liar. You have yet to point out where i lied?
Hi David:Yes, ex-communication is scriptural if someone is practicing sin wilfully, but not simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.
Quote Hi david,
Disfellowshiping can occur with Golf Clubs and among Rotarians too.
Disfellowshiping scripturally is only relevant within the body of ChristAnd how is it practiced among them Nick? Any examples? Could you use some scriptures?
Quote The “lie” David is you insinuating that the reason you can't find the qoute is because its not there… Well show me then. I DID search for it, and the last quote as well. The quote as you quoted it does not appear in the last 50 years. I just wish I could go and see it in context instead of reading the four or however many words from the quote. And the quote as you quoted it, was NOT there, at least, a search found no results. I'm not highly computer literate, and it may be my fault, but if you could please point out where you found that last quote, at least I can check it and see it in full. Or it may have been on the website, and not in the library.
Quote Bottom line David..JW's are told to not even say “hello” to a ex-communicated one….I hate to do this..but here goes:
And what scripture do they use to support this? The 'don't even say a greeting to them' scripture? DK, what was the point of not saying a greeting to certain ones in the first century? It's true, they definitely do take disfellowshiping more seriously than any other religion. Most “Christian” religions don't practice this at all, yet it is clearly in scripture.So then, DK, according to JW's you are not considered “approved association.” (Watchtower Apr 1, 1986 p.30-31 Questions From Readers)
My biggest thing with you, the only real thing with you, is that from the beginning, you've pretended as if everything was fine, as if you just happen to be JW who believes JW's are wrong about most everything and that despite this, you're still the average JW.
Then, people like Is 1:18 said: 'Whoa. Shockwave through David's world.'
No. You were not really what you were claiming to be. Despite things being fine for the moment, as I've said, they won't last. Or at least, I can't see how they could.Quote Hi David: Yes, ex-communication is scriptural if someone is practicing sin wilfully, but not simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.
–94
94, while practicing sin willfully will get you disfellowshiped, true, notice this scripture DK also quoted from a JW's article:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 19 2008,03:06) http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/disfellowshiping.html
Read..and learn my the TRUTH my brotherMy brothers, the sins that are invisible to men are more important to conquer than the ones visible to others:
If you're not careful, you can get legalistic; trying to be fancy to other people and impressive,
“Do not practice your righteousness before men or you have no reward in heaven”
Unforgiveness was one of the main things Jesus dealt with.
Judging other people is a sin.
Self-righteousness
These are sins no one can see if you act righteous outwardly,
but like Jesus says, you err when you compare yourselves one with another.
If I have to act nicely outwardly to protect my image but inside I am full of conceit, self-righteousness and judging others, I am worse off than a sinner:
consider the parable of the tax-collector and the zealot.
God bless you, brothers, and good luck (for the future we're heading into.)Quote Read..and learn my the TRUTH my brother
I read all the posts. They were from that website correct? Read the scriptures my brother.Quote (david @ July 19 2008,15:05) Quote Hi David: Yes, ex-communication is scriptural if someone is practicing sin wilfully, but not simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.
–94
94, while practicing sin willfully will get you disfellowshiped, true, notice this scripture DK also quoted from a JW's article:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
The difference between me and Hymanaeus..is that I stick “to the teaching which you learned from us” as Paul said…I refuse to stick to traditions and doctrines of men..i.e.. JW doctrine…
Again..so you can understand where I stand…
I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM with JW's doctrine EXCEPT on these things:
-The identity of the faithful and discreet slave
-The existence of a governing body in the first century
-1919
-Blood issue
-The extent with which they take disfellowshipping
-Michael=Jesus
-144,000
-Who comprises the body of Christ
-Is there ONE true religion
-Turning in time
-Was the name Jehovah taken out of the NT
-YMCA issue
-Their general disdain for education
-New light
-The revised baptismal questions
-No holidays..but wedding rings, lua's, and pinata's,wind chimes ok
and a couple other things…
Other than that..JW are ok
Quote (david @ July 19 2008,15:20) Quote Read..and learn my the TRUTH my brother
I read all the posts. They were from that website correct? Read the scriptures my brother.
If that website does not wake you up…then nothing will..I understand the scriptures..but the extent which society takes them is out of line with what the first century congregation knew them to mean…
Bottom line…disfellowshipped ones are to be treated as any other man of the world…i.e. 1 Corinthians 15:33…and always within the realms of the greatest of all the fruitages of the spirit which is love…
David…be honest…you know the society is outside of scripture…lemme give you an example..
What scripture says that we can't pray with and for a disfellowshipped one?
What scripture says that ONLY elders can speak with disfellowsipped ones..and they can only do it ONCE a year?
(Check with any elder to confirm this)What scripture says that we CAN NOT study with and share scriptural truths with a disfellowshipped one?
What scriptures say that a Judicial committee is to be comprised of 2-3 elders and held in private with none of the other members of the congregation knowing what took place in the proceedings? Is this practice not DIRECTLY against how the bible said these things were to be conducted?
Quote (david @ July 19 2008,15:05) Quote Hi David: Yes, ex-communication is scriptural if someone is practicing sin wilfully, but not simply because someone may have a different understanding on some church doctrines.
–94
94, while practicing sin willfully will get you disfellowshiped, true, notice this scripture DK also quoted from a JW's article:
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
Hi David:And so, how does that relate to what DK has done? If I have heard him correctly, he has a different understanding on some of the teachings of the JWs. He has gone to the elders and discussed these differences with them, and that is the right thing for him to do. He is striving to follow Christ not the teachings of man which may or may not line up with what God is saying to His church.
When denominations try to control their members by saying in order to be a member here you must agree with our doctrines which in some cases may be an interpretation of scripture rather than scripture itself, this is not coming from God but is a controlling spirit.
Would you ex-communicate someone from the JW's because they had a different understanding relative to blood transfusions or about celebrating Christmas?
Lastly, are the elders of the JW's ordained by God or are they self-exalted to their position of authority? Are any Apostles, or Pastors, or teachers, or Prophets, or evangelists. These are the positions of authority that God has set in the church.
Even if the elders of the JW's ex-communicate DK from your organization, they do not have the authority to ex-communicate him from the church. He is a Christian who has a different undrstanding on some doctrines that the JW's teach.
He believes that Jesus is God's Son and His Christ, and confesses Jesus as his Lord, therefore, he is a Christian.
God Bless
Quote “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus' sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship. Quote He believes that Jesus is God's Son and His Christ, and confesses Jesus as his Lord, therefore, he is a Christian.
94, if you could comment on the scripture. Hymaneaus believed these things, therefore he's “a Christian” as you say. Yet, how did that go for him?
Your original question was about DK and you stated that sinning willfully was what meritted disfellowshiping. Yet, how do you respond to this scripture?
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