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JW's practice the expelling and excommunicating of members who sin unrepentedly. They say that in light of the scriptures listed below, that we should not even SPEAK or EAT with someone who has been “expelled” from the JW congregation…even your relatives…that includes children (the “rules” are softened somewhat if the child or relative is in the home)
They are also taught to treat people who leave the organization VOLUNTARILY over doctrinal issues the same as the way they would treat a unreprentant murderer..basically shun them…”treat them as dead” (yes that is a quote)
THey say that we are not supposed to pray with people who have been expelled or discuss “spiritual things'' with them..
We are not even to say a greeting to them. Not even “hello”.
I ask…is this view of ex-communication scriptural…
The scriptures they use to justify their position are as follows:
1Co 5:5, 11, 13
1 John 5:19
2Jo 9, 10.
1Ti 1:19, 20
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 07 2008,15:18) JW's practice the expelling and excommunicating of members who sin unrepentedly. They say that in light of the scriptures listed below, that we should not even SPEAK or EAT with someone who has been “expelled” from the JW congregation…even your relatives…that includes children (the “rules” are softened somewhat if the child or relative is in the home) They are also taught to treat people who leave the organization VOLUNTARILY over doctrinal issues the same as the way they would treat a unreprentant murderer..basically shun them…”treat them as dead” (yes that is a quote)
THey say that we are not supposed to pray with people who have been expelled or discuss “spiritual things'' with them..
We are not even to say a greeting to them. Not even “hello”.
I ask…is this view of ex-communication scriptural…
The scriptures they use to justify their position are as follows:
1Co 5:5, 11, 13
1 John 5:19
2Jo 9, 10.
1Ti 1:19, 20
DKWhy would you go to a church that teachs or preachs such things?
WJ
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 07 2008,15:18) JW's practice the expelling and excommunicating of members who sin unrepentantly. They say that in light of the scriptures listed below, that we should not even SPEAK or EAT with someone who has been “expelled” from the JW congregation…even your relatives…that includes children (the “rules” are softened somewhat if the child or relative is in the home) They are also taught to treat people who leave the organization VOLUNTARILY over doctrinal issues the same as the way they would treat a unrepentant murderer..basically shun them…”treat them as dead” (yes that is a quote)
They say that we are not supposed to pray with people who have been expelled or discuss “spiritual things'' with them..
We are not even to say a greeting to them. Not even “hello”.
I ask…is this view of ex-communication scriptural…
The scriptures they use to justify their position are as follows:
1Co 5:5, 11, 13
1 John 5:19
2Jo 9, 10.
1Ti 1:19, 20
The Catholic Church uses that too. If you have committed a what is called Dead sin, (German taught) you will be excommunicated. If you don't go to Church on a Sunday without having a good excuse, that is considered a Dead sin. You better go to Confession quickly. If you would die under that condition you would go to Hell. Of course I do not believe in all that anymore. We my Husband and I left that Church, when My Husband was 47 and I was 46 years old.
Peace and Love IreneSo far…I get that you all don't think the way they practice this is scriptural…I ask..
Should any form of ex-communication be practiced today?
Quote (t8 @ July 08 2008,10:35) I would also say that many Trinitarians do the same for those who shun the Trinity doctrine.
I agree…most mainstream religious groups say that anyone who does not believe in the “holy trinity” is not a christian..Quote (t8 @ July 08 2008,10:35) I would also say that many Trinitarians do the same for those who shun the Trinity doctrine.
I wonder tho if we do not judge them by saying they are wrong and we are right? I have never really come across a Trinitarian that has told me that I will go to Hell, if I don't start believing in the trinity, have you?
IreneQuote (Irene @ July 08 2008,10:51) Quote (t8 @ July 08 2008,10:35) I would also say that many Trinitarians do the same for those who shun the Trinity doctrine.
I wonder tho if we do not judge them by saying they are wrong and we are right? I have never really come across a Trinitarian that has told me that I will go to Hell, if I don't start believing in the trinity, have you?
Irene
only a few…but most mainstream religions teach the trinity as the “cornerstone” of christian faith..and necessary to be called a christian..One of my main pieves with religion in general is how certain groups try to seperate themselves as more holy or more christian than other groups…to me that type of attitude is in the spirit of the pharisees..
But back to the thread topic…how do you feel about ex-communication..especially in the light of 1 Cor chapter 5 and Pauls exortation to get wicked man out fo the congregation.
Quote (dirtyknections @ July 08 2008,11:04) Quote (Irene @ July 08 2008,10:51) Quote (t8 @ July 08 2008,10:35) I would also say that many Trinitarians do the same for those who shun the Trinity doctrine.
I wonder tho if we do not judge them by saying they are wrong and we are right? I have never really come across a Trinitarian that has told me that I will go to Hell, if I don't start believing in the trinity, have you?
Irene
only a few…but most mainstream religions teach the trinity as the “cornerstone” of christian faith..and necessary to be called a christian..One of my main pieves with religion in general is how certain groups try to seperate themselves as more holy or more christian than other groups…to me that type of attitude is in the spirit of the pharisees..
But back to the thread topic…how do you feel about ex-communication..especially in the light of 1 Cor chapter 5 and Pauls exortation to get wicked man out fo the congregation.
Hi DKQuote (dirtyknections @ July 08 2008,11:04)
One of my main pieves with religion in general is how certain groups try to seperate themselves as more holy or more christian than other groups…to me that type of attitude is in the spirit of the pharisees..Yes, that is true. It is ironic how those who claim that they themselves are not a part of any group seperate themselves as more holy than others. Very often they think that their truth is exclusive and part of the elite few.
It is my conviction that Gods people, his body is not found in any one group or denomination or particular sect or creed, but in fact is simply made up of believers who have a personal relationship with him.
Blessings! WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 08 2008,11:37) Quote (dirtyknections @ July 08 2008,11:04) Quote (Irene @ July 08 2008,10:51) Quote (t8 @ July 08 2008,10:35) I would also say that many Trinitarians do the same for those who shun the Trinity doctrine.
I wonder tho if we do not judge them by saying they are wrong and we are right? I have never really come across a Trinitarian that has told me that I will go to Hell, if I don't start believing in the trinity, have you?
Irene
only a few…but most mainstream religions teach the trinity as the “cornerstone” of christian faith..and necessary to be called a christian..One of my main pieves with religion in general is how certain groups try to seperate themselves as more holy or more christian than other groups…to me that type of attitude is in the spirit of the pharisees..
But back to the thread topic…how do you feel about ex-communication..especially in the light of 1 Cor chapter 5 and Pauls exortation to get wicked man out fo the congregation.
Hi DKQuote (dirtyknections @ July 08 2008,11:04)
One of my main pieves with religion in general is how certain groups try to seperate themselves as more holy or more christian than other groups…to me that type of attitude is in the spirit of the pharisees..Yes, that is true. It is ironic how those who claim that they themselves are not a part of any group seperate themselves as more holy than others. Very often they think that their truth is exclusive and part of the elite few.
It is my conviction that Gods people, his body is not found in any one group or denomination or particular sect or creed, but in fact is simply made up of believers who have a personal relationship with him.
Blessings! WJ
Amen brother WJ…Quote Why would you go to a church that teachs or preachs such things? –WJ
WJ, I think we've been over this. He's essentially an apostate or at least, well on his way.
Here's what JW's say about “expelling” (Insight book)
. . . In the congregation of God it is exercised to maintain the purity of the organization doctrinally and morally. The exercise of this power is necessary to the continued existence of the organization and particularly so the Christian congregation. The congregation must remain clean and maintain God’s favor in order to be used by him and to represent him. Otherwise, God would expel or cut off the entire congregation.—Re 2:5; 1Co 5:5, 6.
Jehovah’s Action.
Jehovah God took expelling, or disfellowshipping, action in numerous instances. He sentenced Adam to death and drove him and his wife Eve out of the garden of Eden. (Ge 3:19, 23, 24) Cain was banished and became a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth. (Ge 4:11, 14, 16) The angels that sinned were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of dense darkness in which they are reserved for judgment. (2Pe 2:4) Twenty-three thousand fornicators were cut off from Israel in one day. (1Co 10:8) Achan was put to death at Jehovah’s command for stealing that which was devoted to Jehovah. (Jos 7:15, 20, 21, 25) Korah the Levite along with Dathan and Abiram of the tribe of Reuben were cut off for rebellion, and Miriam was stricken with leprosy and eventually might have died in that condition if Moses had not pleaded for her. As it was, she was expelled from the camp of Israel under quarantine seven days.—Nu 16:27, 32, 33, 35; 12:10, 13-15.Under the Mosaic Law.
For serious or deliberate violations of God’s law given through Moses a person could be cut off, that is, put to death. (Le 7:27; Nu 15:30, 31) Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying this penalty.—De 13:12-18; Le 20:10; 17:14; Nu 35:31.Under the Law, for the penalty of cutting off to be carried out, evidence had to be established at the mouth of at least two witnesses. (De 19:15) These witnesses were required to be the first to stone the guilty one. (De 17:7) This would demonstrate their zeal for God’s law and the purity of the congregation of Israel and would also be a deterrent to false, careless, or hasty testimony.
The Sanhedrin and synagogues.
During Jesus’ earthly ministry the synagogues served as courts for trying violators of Jewish law. The Sanhedrin was the highest court. Under Roman rule the Jews did not have the latitude of authority that they had enjoyed under theocratic government. Even when the Sanhedrin judged someone deserving of death, they could not always administer the death penalty, because of restrictions by the Romans. The Jewish synagogues had a system of excommunication, or disfellowshipping, that had three steps or three names. The first step was the penalty of nid·duy′, which was for a relatively short time, initially only 30 days. A person under this penalty was prohibited from enjoying certain privileges. He could go to the temple, but there he was restricted in certain ways, and all besides his own family were commanded to stay at a distance of 4 cubits (c. 2 m; 6 ft) from him. The second step was che′rem, meaning something devoted to God or banned. This was a more severe judgment. The offender could not teach or be taught in the company of others, nor could he perform any commercial transactions beyond purchasing the necessities of life. However, he was not altogether cast out of the Jewish organization, and there was a chance for him to come back. Finally, there was sham·mat·ta’′, an entire cutting off from the congregation. Some believe the last two forms of excommunication were undistinguishable from each other.One who was cast out as wicked, cut off entirely, would be considered worthy of death, though the Jews might not have the authority to execute such a one. Nevertheless, the form of cutting off they did employ was a very powerful weapon in the Jewish community. Jesus foretold that his followers would be expelled from the synagogues. (Joh 16:2) Fear of being expelled, or “unchurched,” kept some of the Jews, even the rulers, from confessing Jesus. (Joh 9:22, ftn; 12:42) An example of such action by the synagogue was the case of the healed blind man who spoke favorably of Jesus.—Joh 9:34.
During the time of his earthly ministry, Jesus gave instructions as to the procedure to follow if a serious sin was committed against a person and yet the sin was of such a nature that, if properly settled, it did not need to involve the Jewish congregation. (Mt 18:15-17) He encouraged earnest effort to help the wrongdoer, while also safeguarding that congregation against persistent sinners. The only congregation of God in existence then was the congregation of Israel. ‘Speaking to the congregation’ did not mean that the entire nation or even all the Jews in a given community sat in judgment on the offender. There were older men of the Jews that were charged with this responsibility. (Mt 5:22) Offenders who refused to listen even to these responsible ones were to be viewed “just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector,” association with whom was shunned by the Jews.—Compare Ac 10:28.
[[AND, HERE SPECIFICALLY, SPEAKING OF EX-COMMUNICATION (DISFELLOWSHIPPING, IN THE CHRISTIAN CONGREGATION:]]
Christian Congregation.
Based on the principles of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Christian Greek Scriptures by command and precedent authorize expulsion, or disfellowshipping, from the Christian congregation. By exercising this God-given authority, the congregation keeps itself clean and in good standing before God. The apostle Paul, with the authority vested in him, ordered the expulsion of an incestuous fornicator who had taken his father’s wife. (1Co 5:5, 11, 13) He also exercised disfellowshipping authority against Hymenaeus and Alexander. (1Ti 1:19, 20) Diotrephes, however, was apparently trying to exercise disfellowshipping action wrongly.—3Jo 9, 10.Some of the offenses that could merit disfellowshipping from the Christian congregation are fornication, adultery, homosexuality, greed, extortion, thievery, lying, drunkenness, reviling, spiritism, murder, idolatry, apostasy, and the causing of divisions in the congregation. (1Co 5:9-13; 6:9, 10; Tit 3:10, 11; Re 21:8) Mercifully, one promoting a sect is warned a first and a second time before such disfellowshipping action is taken against him. In the Christian congregation, the principle enunciated in the Law applies, namely, that two or three witnesses must establish evidence against the accused one. (1Ti 5:19) Those who have been convicted of a practice of sin are reproved Scripturally before the “onlookers,” for example, those who testified concerning the sinful conduct, so that they too may all have a healthy fear of such sin.—1Ti 5:20; see REPROOF.
The Christian congregation is also admonished by Scripture to stop socializing with those who are disorderly and not walking correctly but who are not deemed deserving of complete expulsion. Paul wrote the Thessalonian congregation concerning such: “Stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.”—2Th 3:6, 11, 13-15.
However, regarding any who were Christians but later repudiated the Christian congregation or were expelled from it, the apostle Paul commanded: “Quit mixing in company with” such a one; and the apostle John wrote: “Never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”—1Co 5:11; 2Jo 9, 10.
Those who have been expelled may be received back into the congregation if they manifest sincere repentance. (2Co 2:5-8) This also is a protection to the congregation, preventing it from being overreached by Satan in swinging from condoning wrongdoing to the other extreme, becoming harsh and unforgiving.—2Co 2:10, 11.
Quote The Catholic Church uses that too. I was under the impression that several churches believe in ex-communication, but few practice it. Is this correct?
Quote (david @ July 08 2008,12:18) Quote Why would you go to a church that teachs or preachs such things? –WJ
WJ, I think we've been over this. He's essentially an apostate or at least, well on his way.
Hi David,
To be enlightened so that you can see the need to shake off the dust from your feet from your involvement in false human religion is not apostasy is it?It is freedom, freedom to choose to rather obey the master appointed by God and not the Watchtower.
Hi DK:
Let's analyze the scriptures that you have given that are used by the JW's to ex-communicate someone.
The Apostle Paul states:
Quote 1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.If you were practicing any of these sins mentioned wilfully or sin wilfully in general, then essentially you would have ex-communicated yourself, and so, yes this scripture would be a valid scripture to ex-communicate someone who is practicing sin wilfully.
1 John 5:19 states:
Quote 1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. This implies that they are right and all others that profess Jesus as Lord are wrong. This of course is not authority to ex-communicate someone. It is speaking of the world verses a Christian.
2 John 9, & 10 states:
Quote 2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:Again, by using verse 9 as the authority to ex-communicate someone, they are saying they are the only denomination that has the truth. But the scripture states that if someone confesses Jesus as Lord it is a true spirit. Verse 10 speaks of someone who is preaching another gospel. Verse 9 would be athority to ex-commicate someone if they were practicing sin wilfully.
1 Ti 1:19, 20 states:
Quote 1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.Hymenaeus was overthrowing the faith of Christians by preaching that the resurrection had already occured.
Quote 2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.And Alexander:
Quote 2Ti 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
2Ti 4:15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.Alexander was apparently arguing with Paul who was an Apostle (sent by God). Are any of the elders of the JW's Apostles?
DK my advise to you is to go the elders of the church telling them that you enjoy your fellowship with them and would like to continue, but let them know that you have a different understanding than what they are teaching. The Lord hates hypocrisy. It is better to be honest with them and let the consequences be as they may. They can't ex-communicate you from the kingdom of God. They may not want you to continue in their fellowship. I would suggest that you present them with your understanding of the doctrines or scriptures on which you differ with their teaching in writing, and also letting them see by the scriptures that although you may differ with them in these doctrines that you are a Christian according to the scriptures. I know that your family is involved here as well, and so, I would go to them first before you do any of this. It is better to be honest with them than for them to find out from someone else that you disagree with their doctrines.
This is my advice to you out of my love for you. Pray and ask God if this is consel coming from Him, and if it is act on it. If it is not, ignore it. Praying for you and your family.
God Bless
Quote We are not even to say a greeting to them. Not even “hello”. I ask…is this view of ex-communication scriptural…
Quoting what JW's believe “However, regarding any who were Christians but later repudiated the Christian congregation or were expelled from it, the apostle Paul commanded: “Quit mixing in company with” such a one; and the apostle John wrote: “Never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”—1Co 5:11; 2Jo 9, 10.“
“Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.”–2 Jo 9,10
It's speaking of the “teaching of the Christ.” And it says: “If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.”
Often groups or congregations of Christians regularly met together in houses to consider God’s Word. (Ro 16:5; 1Co 16:19; Col 4:15; Phm 2) But any who turned away from the teaching of the Christ were not welcomed in private homes.—2Jo 10.
That's apparently how the earliest, Christian congregation did it. I know of very few religions that follow this pattern. In fact, almost none.
This is the second time DK has given a quote from the society that I simply haven't been able to find. Either he changed a word or two or it's a quote from 60-100 years ago. It's frustrating.
Hi david,
JWs teach that Jesus is Michael.
This is not found in the teachings of Jesus.
So have you not disfellowshipped yourselves from him?Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him.”–2 Jo 9,10
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