Evil

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God?

Nick is God the best?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best?

Hi kenrch,
What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty.
Fear Him.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:56)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty. Fear Him.

Nick, Yes, God is so great that we cannot comprehend His greatness which all the more means that He is tops and makes no mistakes.
Their is only two reasons why anyone would state that God is not perfect. One, the person is refuses to admit when they are wrong OR two, they just want to argue.
It seems from what I have observed that you fit both.

When you are wrong as you are now you attack to change the subject. I'll say again the God I serve is Perfect. Or just for you the best of the best, the cream of the crop and any other Idea you might have to try and prove that your not wrong.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:56)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty. Fear Him.

This is my question.
Nick is God the best?

This is your answer.
Hi kenrch,
What is best?

I ask a simple question any babe in Christ would know and you answer with "What is best". Why can't you just answer this simple question. Because if you would answer straight out that would mean you were wrong. You would never admit that, at least not straight out.
I told you from the very beginning I used to be like you full of pide. I've repented. When are you?
I bet you are enjoying this

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 20 2005,00:10)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:56) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty. Fear Him. Nick, Yes, God is so great that we cannot comprehend His greatness which all the more means that He is tops and makes no mistakes. Their is only two reasons why anyone would state that God is not perfect.  One, the person is refuses to admit when they are wrong OR two, they just want to argue.   It seems from what I have observed that you fit both. When you are wrong as you are now you attack to change the subject.  I'll say again the God I serve is Perfect.  Or just for you the best of the best, the cream of the crop and any other Idea you might have to try and prove that your not wrong.

Hi kenrch,
Why limit your judgements of us to pride ? Why not sit in judgement and condemn us in many other ways too? Is it because in so doing you also accuse yourself?
Why are you frightened of looking more deeply into the questions I ask? They show how shallow our approach is to God and reveal our total ignorance about Him. Men are so foolish to try to design a box to put their Creator in.
Human words cannot describe our Creator and are vain traps to lead into foolish imaginations. It is wiser to just use the words He uses to describe Himself rather than the fanciful speculations of men such as is theology.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,21:35)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 20 2005,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:56) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty. Fear Him. Nick, Yes, God is so great that we cannot comprehend His greatness which all the more means that He is tops and makes no mistakes. Their is only two reasons why anyone would state that God is not perfect.  One, the person is refuses to admit when they are wrong OR two, they just want to argue.   It seems from what I have observed that you fit both. When you are wrong as you are now you attack to change the subject.  I'll say again the God I serve is Perfect.  Or just for you the best of the best, the cream of the crop and any other Idea you might have to try and prove that your not wrong. Hi kenrch, Why limit your judgements of us to pride ? Why not sit in judgement and condemn us in many other ways too? Is it because in so doing you also accuse yourself? Why are you frightened of looking more deeply into the questions I ask? They show how shallow our approach is to God and reveal our total ignorance about Him. Men are so foolish to try to design a box to put their Creator in. Human words cannot describe our Creator and are vain traps to lead into foolish imaginations. It is wiser to just use the words He uses to describe Himself rather than the fanciful speculations of men such as is theology.

Gee Nick now you are a physiologist. I don't know who you are talking about I've only been talking to you. Are you now trying to drag others in this conversion. No Nick I noticed your arrogance and pride from the beginning and told you so. So don't try and squirm your way out of this by trying to drag others in to try and save you from yourself only you can do that. But first you'll have to admit that you were wrong. My God does not make mistakes, does yours?

[kenrch]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 20 2005,22:14)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,21:35) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 20 2005,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:56) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 20 2005,17:10) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:08) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:09) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,02:46) Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,13:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2005,12:56) Hi kenrch, There are many words transcribed as "evil" in the Word but NASB says of Is 45.7 "I am the Lord forming light and creating darkness, causing well being and creating CALAMITY: I am the Lord who does all these" Certainly the calamities that befell Job were not at the instigation of God but at the instigation Of Satan, but they befell Job with the approval of God who allows testing. Fortunately He is compassionate and knows also that we are but weak flesh and unable to bear much testing even "lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil.." Nick, Whatever See Nick here is an example. I gave you scripture that clearly says that the Lord creates evil Isiah 45:7.  So this doesn't fit Hick's doctine.  What does Nick do he changes the word to calamites then makes an excuse.  I can't buy that stuff. No kenrch, You are not meant to have a hissy fit but to demonstrate to me by the study of the word used, it's manuscript origin and variety of uses, and the contexts it in which it is found, or other translations of the verse, that I am in error. That I welcome. Nick, Nick, If the creator of the universe isn't perfect then who is?  And if no one is perfect then surely The Almighty is  the best their is!  If not God then who? Someone has to be the best.  Who would that be? Hi kenrch, Can you explain to me perfect, eternal, infinite so that we can understand God? Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, What is best? The point I am trying to make is that we do not and cannot grasp the things of God and our foolish efforts to extrapolate from ourselves and nature and what we see around us to try to apply any sort of measure to God is madness. The glorious only begotten Son is still only a reflection of the Almighty. Fear Him. Nick, Yes, God is so great that we cannot comprehend His greatness which all the more means that He is tops and makes no mistakes. Their is only two reasons why anyone would state that God is not perfect.  One, the person is refuses to admit when they are wrong OR two, they just want to argue.   It seems from what I have observed that you fit both. When you are wrong as you are now you attack to change the subject.  I'll say again the God I serve is Perfect.  Or just for you the best of the best, the cream of the crop and any other Idea you might have to try and prove that your not wrong. Hi kenrch, Why limit your judgements of us to pride ? Why not sit in judgement and condemn us in many other ways too? Is it because in so doing you also accuse yourself? Why are you frightened of looking more deeply into the questions I ask? They show how shallow our approach is to God and reveal our total ignorance about Him. Men are so foolish to try to design a box to put their Creator in. Human words cannot describe our Creator and are vain traps to lead into foolish imaginations. It is wiser to just use the words He uses to describe Himself rather than the fanciful speculations of men such as is theology. Gee Nick now you are a physiologist.  I don't know who you are talking about I've only been talking to you. Are you now trying to drag others in this conversion.  No Nick I noticed your arrogance and pride from the beginning and told you so.  So don't try and squirm your way out of this by trying to drag others in to try and save you from yourself only you can do that.  But first you'll have to admit that you were wrong.  My God does not make mistakes, does yours?

Good night Nick, I'll pray for you again. My knees are starting to hurt

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35)

Nick is God the best?

Hi kenrch,
Scripturally God is not described as "the best".
The word "best" occurs many times in scripture relating to sacrifices and choices etc.
But it never appears in relationship to God. Perhaps because it is a comparative word and there is no being to compare with God, so it the most stupid suggestion possible.

Jesus did not allow Himself even to be called "good" saying only God is good so that gives us more food for thought.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 21 2005,00:09)

Quote (kenrch @ Dec. 19 2005,23:35) Nick is God the best? Hi kenrch, Scripturally God is not described as "the best". The word "best" occurs many times in scripture relating to sacrifices and choices etc. But it never appears in relationship to God. Perhaps because it is a comparative word and there is no being to compare with God, so it the most stupid suggestion possible. Jesus did not allow Himself even to be called "good" saying only God is good so that gives us more food for thought.

Hi Nick,

I think Jesus is speaking of God's character, not His ability.

My God doesn't make mistakes! Apparently your's does. At least that's what you keep saying.

[Proclaimer]

Did God create Evil ?

Hi Kenrch,

I wrote the following a while back.

I hope it helps. Feedback would be good.

[kenrch]

Quote (t8 @ Dec. 28 2005,21:41)

Did God create Evil ? Hi Kenrch, I wrote the following a while back. I hope it helps. Feedback would be good.

Hi t8,

First let me say I'm in no way saying that God IS evil! I'm saying God created and uses evil as a tool to bring about what is good. Therefore evil is good. God doesn't use evil, unless it were for the PURPOSE of bring about good. God doesn't use evil to continually punish people forever as some think about hell. Now that is a perfect example of evil. If you believe that God could never do evil then you cannot believe in a God who will burn people forever for no purpose. What purpose would it serve, other than to watch His children who has chosen not to follow Him suffer forever. Now that's evil! I do not believe My God would do that. This is not the kind of evil I'm speaking about. Again, I'm speaking of an evil that brings about GOOD!
Here are the scriptures that tell of a God that, in His own words, created and uses evil.
One more thing I believe God used Katerina to clean New Orleans, I suppose that was evil.
(ISV) What you endure is for the sake of discipline. God is treating you as sons. Is there a son whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:5 and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.
Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.
Job 1:12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Is not God using evil, who is Satan.
EVIL is not evil if it is from God.
EZEIKEL 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. (Satan)
Isa 45:7

Evil lack of good. Troubles- calamity(lack of good). Calamity-great distress (lack of good). Disaster distress (lack of good)

No matter how you say it evil is not good. These are Jehovah's words. And if they are Jehovah's words then they are certainly good.

(ASV) I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

(BBE) I am the giver of light and the maker of the dark; causing blessing, and sending troubles; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

(ESV) I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

(GW) I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

(HCSB) I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Who created Evil, who put evil in the tree of good.

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.-God knows evil how could He put evil in the tree unless He knew what evil was.
Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, that are before thee, to seek out a man who is a skilful player on the harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as he did day by day. And Saul had his spear in his hand;
1Sa 19:9 And an evil spirit from Jehovah was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing with his hand.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. (Again)

[david]

Quote

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. I know that Satan does all the dirty work. But who created Satan. Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing? It's all for the learning. Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away. Just because you are righteous doesn't mean that evil will not come upon you. God created Satan to chastise His children.

Kenrch, I don't believe God created Satan (meaning “opposer, resister”) to chastise His children.
At one time, Satan was a perfect angel, who was in the truth.
JOHN 8:44
“YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].”
He “did not stand fast in the truth.” That means at one time he was in the truth. When that angel created by God with free will “began” his wayward course, he became a manslayer, a Resister and opposer to God (a satan), and a slander and liar (a devil). He decided to become these things himself. Just a person isn't born a criminal but becomes one of their own choice, that angel who was in the truth, decided he wanted what God had, and he became God's chief enemy, resister, opposer, slanderer, Satan the Devil.

Quote

Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing?

God allowed Satan to try to prove his claim, that he could turn anyone away from Jehovah. Satan has been trying to do this with everyone. But if he could do this with Job, a man blameless and upright, and in fact the only one on the earth at that time, then that would prove a lot. (Job 1:1,7)

Quote

Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away.

No, Lesson from Job: Satan takes away. Satan attacks. Job falsely thought that God was doing those things to him, but Elihu straightened him out.
JAMES 1:13
“When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.”

Quote

Therefore evil is good.

That is the third sentence in your above post. “Evil is good.” This sounds like something Satan wants us to believe. By definition, evil isn't good.

david.

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Dec. 31 2005,23:28)

Quote Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. I know that Satan does all the dirty work.  But who created Satan. Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing? It's all for the learning.  Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away.  Just because you are righteous doesn't mean that evil will not come upon you. God created Satan to chastise His children. Kenrch, I don't believe God created Satan (meaning “opposer, resister”) to chastise His children. At one time, Satan was a perfect angel, who was in the truth. JOHN 8:44 “YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie].” He “did not stand fast in the truth.”  That means at one time he was in the truth.  When that angel created by God with free will “began” his wayward course, he became a manslayer, a Resister and opposer to God (a satan), and a slander and liar (a devil).  He decided to become these things himself.  Just a person isn't born a criminal but becomes one of their own choice, that angel who was in the truth, decided he wanted what God had, and he became God's chief enemy, resister, opposer, slanderer, Satan the Devil. Quote Did not God tell Satan what he could and could not do to Job who did nothing? God allowed Satan to try to prove his claim, that he could turn anyone away from Jehovah.  Satan has been trying to do this with everyone.  But if he could do this with Job, a man blameless and upright, and in fact the only one on the earth at that time, then that would prove a lot.  (Job 1:1,7) Quote Lesson from Job: God giveth and the God taketh away.   No, Lesson from Job: Satan takes away.  Satan attacks.  Job falsely thought that God was doing those things to him, but Elihu straightened him out.   JAMES 1:13 “When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” Quote Therefore evil is good. That is the third sentence in your above post.  “Evil is good.”  This sounds like something Satan wants us to believe.  By definition, evil isn't good.   david.

David,

You know that you're taking what I said out of context.

God uses evil to bring about good for His PURPOSE. God put a evil spirit on Saul. Why would God do such a thing? To bring about good 1Sam.(16:14-20). The end result is to bring good for His purpose. God could have made Pharaoh let the Hebrews go way before He did.
Exo 4:21 And Jehovah said unto Moses, When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.
Exo 5:23 For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name, he hath dealt ill with this people; neither hast thou delivered thy people at all.
Why was Pharaoh so harden of heart? Because God made Him that way so God could perform miracles. Was that evil? The plagues, the people that died. Was that evil? Why did God wait 400 years before answering the prayers of His people? Was that evil? Why did God do these things? To bring about good for His purpose. Could not God the almighty have freed the Hebrews in 300 years? That sounds evil to me. God used that evil to bring about good. God's ways are not our ways. Their is only one reason why God does these things “to bring about His purpose”.
Why did God make everyone flee New Orleans? Some could not leave their possessions and perished! Was that evil?
Satan does only what God lets him do! Jehovah gave Satan permission to afflict Job. What did Job do wrong? Nothing!
If you were arrested for murder and you went before a judge who knew you were innocent and yet convicted you; would that be evil? God does evil to bring about good. The good I learn from Job is trials and tribulations will come upon you especially if you are righteous. To spite what the preachers teach (1Tim.4:3 ) our road is not a new paved hwy.

[david]

Maybe I mistook the whole of your post Kenrch. But what bothers me is when people say that Jehovah created Satan as his enemy, saying that God created an opposer or resister to him. Satan the Devil did not stand fast in the truth. Hence, at one time, he was in the truth.
I agree with some of what you say.

About Isaiah 45:7, which you first stated in the very first post of this thread:
What is the meaning of Jehovah’s bringing evil?
First, how is the word “evil” used in the Bible? Evil is that which results in pain, sorrow, or distress. In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word ra` is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Ge 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Ex 33:4; De 6:22; 28:35; Pr 23:6; 28:22) The Greek word ka·kos´ may be defined as that which is (1) morally evil and (2) destructive; among the ways it has been translated are: “bad,” “evil,” “hurtful,” “injurious,” “wrong.” (Ro 7:19; 12:17; Col 3:5; Tit 1:12; Heb 5:14) The Hebrew verb qa·lal´ means “call down evil upon.”

Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11.

david

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 01 2006,06:10)

Maybe I mistook the whole of your post Kenrch.  But what bothers me is when people say that Jehovah created Satan as his enemy, saying that God created an opposer or resister to him.  Satan the Devil did not stand fast in the truth.  Hence, at one time, he was in the truth.   I agree with some of what you say. About Isaiah 45:7, which you first stated in the very first post of this thread: What is the meaning of Jehovah’s bringing evil? First, how is the word “evil” used in the Bible?  Evil is that which results in pain, sorrow, or distress. In order to convey the correct thought in English, the very comprehensive Hebrew word ra` is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context. (Ge 2:9; 40:7; 41:3; Ex 33:4; De 6:22; 28:35; Pr 23:6; 28:22) The Greek word ka·kos´ may be defined as that which is (1) morally evil and (2) destructive; among the ways it has been translated are: “bad,” “evil,” “hurtful,” “injurious,” “wrong.” (Ro 7:19; 12:17; Col 3:5; Tit 1:12; Heb 5:14) The Hebrew verb qa·lal´ means “call down evil upon.” Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11. david

David,

I'm sorry if my posts isn't clear. The reason I posted it is some “Christians” always say God didn't create that hurricane or tornado it was Satan. Then you read Job and you get the picture. Like I said just because your personnal saviour is Jesus that doesn't mean that we have a paved hwy to ride on. One should keep in mind that our God is no respector of persons. What He did with Job He can (if He needs be) do the samething to us. Most “Christians” just look at the reward that Job recieved when finished. If Job had a choice don't you think he would have said “no thanks I'll just keep what I have” I know I would, but then your will be done So you see to me that was evil. But if God is using it then it brings about good, hence Jobs reward doubled.

[david]

Quote

What He did with Job He can (if He needs be) do the samething to us.

The thing is Kenrch, God didn't bring those things upon Job. It was Satan. Job mistakenly may have at first thought it was God, but it was Satan. God did allow Job to be tested though.

Quote

I'm sorry if my posts isn't clear. The reason I posted it is some “Christians” always say God didn't create that hurricane or tornado it was Satan.

Kenrch, for what purpose would God create hurricanes and tornados?
It's true, bad things happen. “Time and unforseen occurance befall [us] all.” (Eccl 9:11) But, “when under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” (James 1:13)
When bad things happen, it's often because “man has dominated man to his injury,” as God's Word states. (Eccl 8:9) The book of Job and other Bible books reveal that it is Satan who is behind much of the worlds troubles, not God.
God is allowing us to see what happens when we try to live without him and to decide for ourselves what is right or wrong, good or bad. Issues were raised in the garden of Eden which God is allowing time to be settled. Can man rule himself or does he need God's guidance? Are there any faithful servants of God who will serve God out of a clean heart despite efforts to turn him away?

[kenrch]

Quote (david @ Jan. 02 2006,01:14)

Quote What He did with Job He can (if He needs be) do the samething to us. The thing is Kenrch, God didn't bring those things upon Job.  It was Satan.  Job mistakenly may have at first thought it was God, but it was Satan.  God did allow Job to be tested though. Quote I'm sorry if my posts isn't clear.  The reason I posted it is some “Christians” always say God didn't create that hurricane or tornado it was Satan. Kenrch, for what purpose would God create hurricanes and tornados? It's true, bad things happen.  “Time and unforseen occurance befall [us] all.” (Eccl 9:11)  But, “when under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” (James 1:13) When bad things happen, it's often because “man has dominated man to his injury,” as God's Word states. (Eccl 8:9)  The book of Job and other Bible books reveal that it is Satan who is behind much of the worlds troubles, not God. God is allowing us to see what happens when we try to live without him and to decide for ourselves what is right or wrong, good or bad.  Issues were raised in the garden of Eden which God is allowing time to be settled.  Can man rule himself or does he need God's guidance?  Are there any faithful servants of God who will serve God out of a clean heart despite efforts to turn him away?

For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” (James 1:13) God Himself did not do evil. God told Satan what he could and could not do. If you use a gun to shoot somebody then who shot that person the gun or the person USING the gun. The Father ALLOWS Satan to do the evil. Or doesn't God have everything in controll, to bring about His purpose.
The same thing happened to New Orleans that happened to Sodom and Gomorrah, only He used water instead of fire.
God has to keep things in controll lest no flesh be saved!
The crime rate in New Orleans has dropped 150%. Did Satan cause the crime rate to drop? Why do you only see the evil and not the good. Their was a reason why God allowed Satan to do that. Did the gun shoot the person or was it the person USING THE GUN.
Why do you limit God. God created all things for Him and by Him. Jehovah Himself said that it is He that created evil.
Jehovah sends evil spirits on people.
Jdg 9:23 And God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of Jehovah departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from Jehovah troubled him.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, that are before thee, to seek out a man who is a skilful player on the harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.
1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that an evil spirit from God came mightily upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as he did day by day. And Saul had his spear in his hand;
1Sa 19:9 And an evil spirit from Jehovah was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his spear in his hand; and David was playing with his hand.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee. (Again)
Sometimes we don't see the good from the evil. That doesn't mean that the evil didn't cause good. If I see something that happened on the other side of the earth like the tsiuma. Why did “God allow that to happen” and others say “look what Satan has done”. Those people, after sending countless missionaries preaching Jesus. They still worship cows. Why did God allow Satan to do that. Was that the reason? I don't know, do you? Sometimes the reason is evident. Most of the time it is not. I don't question why. The Father is God everything he does is righteous. I'm not God's judge! You know the scriptures, what right does the pot have to say to the potter. His ways are not our ways.

[david]

LUKE 13:2-4
“So in reply he said to them: “Do YOU imagine that these Gal·i·le´ans were proved worse sinners than all other Gal·i·le´ans because they have suffered these things? No, indeed, I tell YOU; but, unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise be destroyed. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Si·lo´am fell, thereby killing them, do YOU imagine that they were proved greater debtors [sinners] than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem?”

Kenrch, how would you respond to Jesus' words? If you were there in Jesus time, how would you have looked at those tragedies? Would you have imagined God was causing them?

Jesus here used a recent event to reject the false notion that tragedy befalls those who deserve it. Those 18 souls did not perish because of some sin that evoked divine displeasure. Rather, their tragic death was a result of time and unforeseen occurrence. (Ecclesiastes 9:11)

God “has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth.” (Acts 17:31)
That day has not begun.

[Sultan]

Quote (david @ Jan. 02 2006,19:39)

LUKE 13:2-4 “So in reply he said to them: “Do YOU imagine that these Gal·i·le´ans were proved worse sinners than all other Gal·i·le´ans because they have suffered these things? No, indeed, I tell YOU; but, unless YOU repent, YOU will all likewise be destroyed. Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Si·lo´am fell, thereby killing them, do YOU imagine that they were proved greater debtors [sinners] than all other men inhabiting Jerusalem?” Kenrch, how would you respond to Jesus' words? If you were there in Jesus time, how would you have looked at those tragedies? Would you have imagined God was causing them? Jesus here used a recent event to reject the false notion that tragedy befalls those who deserve it. Those 18 souls did not perish because of some sin that evoked divine displeasure. Rather, their tragic death was a result of time and unforeseen occurrence. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) God “has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth.” (Acts 17:31) That day has not begun.

That is true that the day of judgement has not come yet, but the wrath of God is being revealed right now against unrighteousness.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. (Rom. 1:18-32).

[Eliyah]

Folks,

the truth of the matter is that satan corrupted himself for he became puffed up with his own beauty, he was created for good, however, he coveted Yah's Power and His Throne, he is also the first sinner / ie- transgressor of Yah's Torah or laws as Messiah and John reveals as does also Peter.

As for every evil or bad things that happens, it is because of time, chance, and happenstance, and as Messiah said, “” IF you all do not REPENT of SIN( ie-of lawlessness 1 John 3:4) you shall all likewise perish.””

Since evil was indirectly created by Yah and against His -Yah's will( as satan becoming corrupted of and by himself ), Yah uses such evil to bring about His own purposes for to create His goodness in the end results for mankind and Himself.

The scriptures do not say that YAH created evil directly or on purpose, however, Yah created evil indirectly since by satan's own corrupted beauty and mind, and since this indirectly evil was created, then Yah uses that indirectly created evil for His own purposes to bring about His own goodness and purpose for the end results for His plans for mankind and Himself.

Eliyah C.

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