Everything has an origin, why doesn't God?

[ACB]

I have some questions as well, as a confirmed christian.

Everything has an origin, why doesn’t God? Couldn’t you argue there is no God and the universe has always existed, just as you can argue God was always there? If God was loving and forgiving, why were Adam and Eve not forgiven? Why did God create them to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay "good" and not taste from the tree of knowledge? Where do angels come from? They have been alive before humans and sound incredibly similar to medieval folkore, do they not? Why does it seem as though god is eager to take credit for human achievement even though he created the problem being solved in the first place. If god created everything, then logically he created Satan. So you worship the creator of satan? Isn’t that worse than worshipping Satan himself? If anyone could answer my questions it would be super great.

[Proclaimer]

Q: Everything has an origin, why doesn't God?
A: God is eternal and eternity doesn't have an origin, only finite things have an origin. Eternity is the origin. This is very hard for many to accept because being finite we do not understand infinite. But infinite is a different reality to finite, so you cannot use finite thinking and apply it to infinite.

Q: Couldn't you argue there is no God and the universe has always existed?
A: Yes, in the same way you could argue that a house has always existed and the builder never existed, but is a figment of ones imagination.

Q: If God was loving and forgiving, why were Adam and Eve not forgiven?
A: Because God made Man with a free will, which means that God would respect our will and not over-ride our decisions. If we didn't have free-will, we would be a race of robots and God desires that he has sons and daughters that are free and choose him freely. Now maybe Adam and Eve were forgiven or maybe not, but that depends on how they lived the remainder of their lives. Same goes for us.

Q: Why did God create Adam and Eve to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay “good” and not taste from the tree of knowledge?
A: Because God needed to test Man to see if Man would choose him or choose him not. This was and is a fundamental process that all eternal creatures of God have to go through. First we are created, then we are tested to see if we choose Godly character. All of God's creatures that have been created and tested and have chosen God, live forever. Sounds fair enough to me. If a creature chooses not to follow God, then why should they be forced to live with God forever against their so-called free-will.

Q: Where do angels come from?
A: Angels were created by God who created all things.

Q: Angels have been alive before humans and sound incredibly similar to medieval folkore, do they not?
A: Yes they do. If Angels exist and have interacted with humans in the past, then it seems logical that their memory would be folklore or the stuff of legends today. Look at the legend of Hercules. He is said to have a god as his Father (Zues) and his Mother was from earth (Gaiea). Now read Genesis 6:4:
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Q: Why does it seem as though God is eager to take credit for human achievement even though he created the problem being solved in the first place.
A: God never created the problem, he allowed the possibility of the problem to honour our free-will. If there was no option but God, then our free-will to choose him would be a farce. Now if a person chooses to serve God (the problem being solved as you say), then of course God is very happy, because that is one more person that will live with God forever. Don't forget however that if man had obeyed God in the first place, then there wouldn't be a problem. But man didn't.

Q: If God created everything, then logically he created Satan. So you worship the creator of Satan? Isn't that worse than worshipping Satan himself?
A: God created all that is good because he is light and there is no darkness in him. Now if a person has a free-will and they choose to reject God, then what should God create for those people in order to exist seperate from God. Well if God is light, then maybe those who reject light have darkness. If God is love, then those that reject love can have hate. If God is eternal, then maybe those who reject eternity will perish. So is darkness a created thing or really just the lack of light? Is hate a created thing or just the lack of love?

It makes sense that if a creature such as Satan rejects God, then they reject love, light and wisdom. So why is Satan called the Prince of Darkness and why is he called the Father of Murderers (hate) and why was he cut away from God's everlasting life? Because he was the first creature to reject God. Therefore all those who reject God are following in Satans footsteps. So God didn't create Satan to fall. God gave his creatures free-will to choose him or reject him and God gives the lack of himself to those that reject him. They are cut away from God because it is what they choose. The scriptures are clear that God created Satan perfect in the beginning and it was Satans choosing that resulted in Satan sinning.

Now if God didn't allow free-will then we would just be robots and true love wouldn't exist. Whats the point in creating creatures that have no choice and what pleasure is there for God when those creatures say to him, “I love you”, when it is just the response of a program. As mentioned before, to have eternal life and Godly character, you must first be created and secondly you must choose God. If you choose to rebel against the God who is the source of all good, then we shouldn't be surprised at the outcome because God is the only source of all good.

[sunnyb]

interesting tid bit to throw out there being a physics geek…In I John 1:5 it says that …God is light… and other places he is represented by bright lights. The reason that nothing (anything contating information) cannot travle faster than the speed of light or the speed of light, is that it would have infinite energy, no time, and would contain all information in universe. (omnicent) Interesting isnt it? Kinda describes God. Just a fun tid bit though.
Sunnyb

[loveandpeace]

God doesn’t have a beginning or an end as said at Rev 22:13 :" I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. " So, know one came befor him and know one will come after him.

[GJG]

The concept of everything needing a biginning is only true in our own space/time reality. Anything outside of our space/time reality is not subject to such limitations.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (ACB @ April 19 2003,17:04)

Everything has an origin, why doesn't God?

Yes everything has an origin. But God is not a thing. All ''things were created, but God has always been. He is the Most High and he is bigger than all of creation and all time.

Scientists assume that time and space was created in the 'Big Bang'. If indeed it was a 'Big Bang' or explosion, it was God who made the universe and hence time and space. So God was before time.

1 Kings 8:27
“But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

[thehappyman]

Hi Ladys & Gentlemen:
Jehovah said ; “I Am” . I understand what that means , their is none other. ……..Just a tib thought.

[Reality]

Quote (t8 @ April 19 2003,04:53)

Q: Everything has an origin, why doesn't God? A: God is eternal and eternity doesn't have an origin, only finite things have an origin. Eternity is the origin. This is very hard for many to accept because being finite we do not understand infinite. But infinite is a different reality to finite, so you cannot use finite thinking and apply it to infinite. Q: Couldn't you argue there is no God and the universe has always existed? A: Yes, in the same way you could argue that a house has always existed and the builder never existed, but is a figment of ones imagination. Q: If God was loving and forgiving, why were Adam and Eve not forgiven? A: Because God made Man with a free will, which means that God would respect our will and not over-ride our decisions. If we didn't have free-will, we would be a race of robots and God desires that he has sons and daughters that are free and choose him freely. Now maybe Adam and Eve were forgiven or maybe not, but that depends on how they lived the remainder of their lives. Same goes for us. Q: Why did God create Adam and Eve to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay “good” and not taste from the tree of knowledge? A: Because God needed to test Man to see if Man would choose him or choose him not. This was and is a fundamental process that all eternal creatures of God have to go through. First we are created, then we are tested to see if we choose Godly character. All of God's creatures that have been created and tested and have chosen God, live forever. Sounds fair enough to me. If a creature chooses not to follow God, then why should they be forced to live with God forever against their so-called free-will. Q: Where do angels come from? A: Angels were created by God who created all things. Q: Angels have been alive before humans and sound incredibly similar to medieval folkore, do they not? A: Yes they do. If Angels exist and have interacted with humans in the past, then it seems logical that their memory would be folklore or the stuff of legends today. Look at the legend of Hercules. He is said to have a god as his Father (Zues) and his Mother was from earth (Gaiea). Now read Genesis 6:4: There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Q: Why does it seem as though God is eager to take credit for human achievement even though he created the problem being solved in the first place. A: God never created the problem, he allowed the possibility of the problem to honour our free-will. If there was no option but God, then our free-will to choose him would be a farce. Now if a person chooses to serve God (the problem being solved as you say), then of course God is very happy, because that is one more person that will live with God forever. Don't forget however that if man had obeyed God in the first place, then there wouldn't be a problem. But man didn't. Q: If God created everything, then logically he created Satan. So you worship the creator of Satan? Isn't that worse than worshipping Satan himself? A: God created all that is good because he is light and there is no darkness in him. Now if a person has a free-will and they choose to reject God, then what should God create for those people in order to exist seperate from God.  Well if God is light, then maybe those who reject light have darkness. If God is love, then those that reject love can have hate. If God is eternal, then maybe those who reject eternity will perish. So is darkness a created thing or really just the lack of light? Is hate a created thing or just the lack of love? It makes sense that if a creature such as Satan rejects God, then they reject love, light and wisdom. So why is Satan called the Prince of Darkness and why is he called the Father of Murderers (hate) and why was he cut away from God's everlasting life? Because he was the first creature to reject God. Therefore all those who reject God are following in Satans footsteps. So God didn't create Satan to fall. God gave his creatures free-will to choose him or reject him and God gives the lack of himself to those that reject him. They are cut away from God because it is what they choose. The scriptures are clear that God created Satan perfect in the beginning and it was Satans choosing that resulted in Satan sinning. Now if God didn't allow free-will then we would just be robots and true love wouldn't exist. Whats the point in creating creatures that have no choice and what pleasure is there for God when those creatures say to him, “I love you”, when it is just the response of a program. As mentioned before, to have eternal life and Godly character, you must first be created and secondly you must choose God. If you choose to rebel against the God who is the source of all good, then we shouldn't be surprised at the outcome because God is the only source of all good.

Hello T8,

I continue to read and learn at this great site. After going into too many various directions, I decided to go back to the earlies Biblical topics I could find here, and start reading all of them from that point on. These are very good and most happen to teach what I already understand to be true.

I got to this interesting one, which also rings true. There is just one area where there is another view, which may be possible, but I'm not possitive yet.

I am looking at this area of your post:>>
Q:[/b] Why did God create Adam and Eve to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay “good” and not taste from the tree of knowledge?
A: Because God needed to test Man to see if Man would choose him or choose him not. This was and is a fundamental process that all eternal creatures of God have to go through. First we are created, then we are tested to see if we choose Godly character. All of God's creatures that have been created and tested and have chosen God, live forever. Sounds fair enough to me. If a creature chooses not to follow God, then why should they be forced to live with God forever against their so-called free-will.<<

I actually think that The God Most High does know all things, but the fact that He knows all does not take away our ability to choose. The being who needs to know the outcome of a test is the Mediator, because he does not know everything.

This would explain the scene where Abraham is obeying the voice that directed him to sacrifice Isaac. Just as he was at the final stage, The Great Angel (or messenger) interrupted him and told him not to hurt the lad. Since Abraham could not have heard the voice of The God Most High, he heard the messenger instead. It was the messenger who needed to know and that is why the messenger said, “Now I know … “

I think it is the same with us that The Father already knows which way we will choose, but since he has called and given us to the anointed, then that being needs to learn our choice.

It is much like a parent of children today. Suppose a mother places her children in a room full of other children. The room is filled with lots of toys for them to play with, and in the midst of the room is a bright red truck. The mother tells her children to leave that truck alone and not to play with it. Then she leaves the room.

She may not know what the other children will do, but she likely does know which of her own children will obey her. The fact that she knows this does not take away the children's choice.

This is only a possibility howeve
r, but it sort of explains how The Father can know all things, yet trials must come – these not only for the benefit of the messenger/anointed but for each of us as well, for often we do not know what we ourselves may do in a given situation until it happens to us.

It seems to also explain how that Messiah could not tell his disciples exactly when those events in Matt. 24 might occur. Instead he said only His Father Knows.

Just a possibility, I guess. Back to more interesting reading.

Reality

[Proclaimer]

Hi Reality ,

Your view is quite possible.
Also the Angels desire to look into such things to gain understanding. Our lives are a witness of the war between God (his wisdom) and his adversary. There are of course willing humans playing out each will and the outcome (fruit) is a kind of eternal testimony to the results of rebelling against God for all creation to see. Also; Satan is trying to fault God's wisdom by attacking the weakest part of his Kingdom, (us – redeemed men). He accused God and there was no place left in heaven for him. He has turned his attention to us. We are the weakest link (so to speak). But we only need remain firm in God because God himself is eternal and unmovable.

I am sure the conclusion that is being wrought from all this rebellion against God is quite simple. There is no life outside God. There is no good outside God. All is vain outside God. Only God can be trusted to rule over his created beings. Created beings who rule without submission to the creator cannot handle the power and become corrupt.

People who come to these conclusions through faith are wise. Others come to it because life itself teaches them this. They too are wise.

Thanks for sharing it. I will ponder your words.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Reality @ Sep. 30 2005,19:08)

Quote (t8 @ April 19 2003,04:53) Q: Everything has an origin, why doesn't God? A: God is eternal and eternity doesn't have an origin, only finite things have an origin. Eternity is the origin. This is very hard for many to accept because being finite we do not understand infinite. But infinite is a different reality to finite, so you cannot use finite thinking and apply it to infinite. Q: Couldn't you argue there is no God and the universe has always existed? A: Yes, in the same way you could argue that a house has always existed and the builder never existed, but is a figment of ones imagination. Q: If God was loving and forgiving, why were Adam and Eve not forgiven? A: Because God made Man with a free will, which means that God would respect our will and not over-ride our decisions. If we didn't have free-will, we would be a race of robots and God desires that he has sons and daughters that are free and choose him freely. Now maybe Adam and Eve were forgiven or maybe not, but that depends on how they lived the remainder of their lives. Same goes for us. Q: Why did God create Adam and Eve to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay “good” and not taste from the tree of knowledge? A: Because God needed to test Man to see if Man would choose him or choose him not. This was and is a fundamental process that all eternal creatures of God have to go through. First we are created, then we are tested to see if we choose Godly character. All of God's creatures that have been created and tested and have chosen God, live forever. Sounds fair enough to me. If a creature chooses not to follow God, then why should they be forced to live with God forever against their so-called free-will. Q: Where do angels come from? A: Angels were created by God who created all things. Q: Angels have been alive before humans and sound incredibly similar to medieval folkore, do they not? A: Yes they do. If Angels exist and have interacted with humans in the past, then it seems logical that their memory would be folklore or the stuff of legends today. Look at the legend of Hercules. He is said to have a god as his Father (Zues) and his Mother was from earth (Gaiea). Now read Genesis 6:4: There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Q: Why does it seem as though God is eager to take credit for human achievement even though he created the problem being solved in the first place. A: God never created the problem, he allowed the possibility of the problem to honour our free-will. If there was no option but God, then our free-will to choose him would be a farce. Now if a person chooses to serve God (the problem being solved as you say), then of course God is very happy, because that is one more person that will live with God forever. Don't forget however that if man had obeyed God in the first place, then there wouldn't be a problem. But man didn't. Q: If God created everything, then logically he created Satan. So you worship the creator of Satan? Isn't that worse than worshipping Satan himself? A: God created all that is good because he is light and there is no darkness in him. Now if a person has a free-will and they choose to reject God, then what should God create for those people in order to exist seperate from God.  Well if God is light, then maybe those who reject light have darkness. If God is love, then those that reject love can have hate. If God is eternal, then maybe those who reject eternity will perish. So is darkness a created thing or really just the lack of light? Is hate a created thing or just the lack of love? It makes sense that if a creature such as Satan rejects God, then they reject love, light and wisdom. So why is Satan called the Prince of Darkness and why is he called the Father of Murderers (hate) and why was he cut away from God's everlasting life? Because he was the first creature to reject God. Therefore all those who reject God are following in Satans footsteps. So God didn't create Satan to fall. God gave his creatures free-will to choose him or reject him and God gives the lack of himself to those that reject him. They are cut away from God because it is what they choose. The scriptures are clear that God created Satan perfect in the beginning and it was Satans choosing that resulted in Satan sinning. Now if God didn't allow free-will then we would just be robots and true love wouldn't exist. Whats the point in creating creatures that have no choice and what pleasure is there for God when those creatures say to him, “I love you”, when it is just the response of a program. As mentioned before, to have eternal life and Godly character, you must first be created and secondly you must choose God. If you choose to rebel against the God who is the source of all good, then we shouldn't be surprised at the outcome because God is the only source of all good. Hello T8, I continue to read and learn at this great site.  After going into too many various directions, I decided to go back to the earlies Biblical topics I could find here, and start reading all of them from that point on.  These are very good and most happen to teach what I already understand to be true. I got to this interesting one, which also rings true.  There is just one area where there is another view, which may be possible, but I'm not possitive yet. I am looking at this area of your post:>> Q:[/b] Why did God create Adam and Eve to be so gullible if he wanted them to stay “good” and not taste from the tree of knowledge? A: Because God needed to test Man to see if Man would choose him or choose him not. This was and is a fundamental process that all eternal creatures of God have to go through. First we are created, then we are tested to see if we choose Godly character. All of God's creatures that have been created and tested and have chosen God, live forever. Sounds fair enough to me. If a creature chooses not to follow God, then why should they be forced to live with God forever against their so-called free-will.<< I actually think that The God Most High does know all things, but the fact that He knows all does not take away our ability to choose.  The being who needs to know the outcome of a test is the Mediator, because he does not know everything. This would explain the scene where Abraham is obeying the voice that directed him to sacrifice Isaac.  Just as he was at the final stage, The Great Angel (or messenger) interrupted him and told him not to hurt the lad.  Since Abraham could not have heard the voice of The God Most High, he heard the messenger instead.  It was the messenger who needed to know and that is why the messenger said, “Now I know … “ I think it is the same with us that The Father already knows which way we will choose, but since he has called and given us to the anointed, then that being needs to learn our choice.   It is much like a parent of children today.  Suppose a mother places her children in a room full of other children.  The room is filled with lots of toys for them to play with, and in the midst of the room is a bright red truck.  The mother tells her children to leave that truck alone and not to play with it.  Then she leaves the room. She may not know what the oth er children will do, but she likely does know which of her own children will obey her.  The fact that she knows this does not take away the children's choice. This is only a possibility however, but it sort of explains how The Father can know all things, yet trials must come – these not only for the benefit of the messenger/anointed but for each of us as well, for often we do not know what we ourselves may do in a given situation until it happens to us. It seems to also explain how that Messiah could not tell his disciples exactly when those events in Matt. 24 might occur.  Instead he said only His Father Knows. Just a possibility, I guess.  Back to more interesting reading. Reality

Hi reality,
Good points. Where is the “now I know”?

[Reality]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 01 2005,02:19)

Reality[/quote] Hi reality, Good points. Where is the “now I know”?

Hello Nick,

Yes, I should have included that. Here goes.

Genesis 22: 10-12
(10) Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. (11) But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.” (12) He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (RSV)

Reality

[NickHassan]

Thx

[Author]

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