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Hi w,
You say
“So Jesus is God in the flesh or the scriptures are broken and have no harmony here since “No Man Has Seen God”So in context
Jn 1
“18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. “Is Jesus included among the men spoken of here?
Are you saying Jesus is not a man because he has seen God?
Are you saying Jesus was not a man when he saw God?
Are you saying Jesus is God who saw Himself?Hi W,
You quote
“14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;”So the only one Who knows the times, the king of kings and Lord of Lords, out only true God, shall reveal His Christ at his return.
Hi W
'Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”Christ is conceived of the Spirit of God and thus is of the bloodline of God Himself.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2007,01:24) Hi W,
It is quite superfluous to tell us the Father is one with His own Spirit.
But the unity between the two sentient beings, Father and Son is special.
It is an agreed unity.
The words you use “superfluous” and “sentient beings”, are not found in scripture.We must abide in scripture as you say!
Hi W,
You expound on the unity between Father and Son and then show us scriptures that detail that unity of will and action as if they reveal something new and strange. Why is this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2007,01:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2007,01:24) Hi W,
It is quite superfluous to tell us the Father is one with His own Spirit.
But the unity between the two sentient beings, Father and Son is special.
It is an agreed unity.
The words you use “superfluous” and “sentient beings”, are not found in scripture.We must abide in scripture as you say!
Hi W,
That is one approach to dialogue but a more mature one would be to address the issues surely?Hi W,
You say
“7 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.As you can see, Paul was speaking of the Lord Jesus who he knew to be the “King Of Kings” and now calls him “The only wise God”.
Surely you are not telling us the Father is not wise?
You get so entangled trying to bind together this battered unholy trinity you devised.Hi w,
1 Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Footnote to the NIV reads
1 Timothy 3:16 Some manuscripts GodSo KJV chose from those manuscripts which clearly are not the majority or the word some would not have been used. It is obvious of course that God would not need to be justified by His Spirit anyway but that anointing Spirit justified the messiah, Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2007,01:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2007,01:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2007,01:24) Hi W,
It is quite superfluous to tell us the Father is one with His own Spirit.
But the unity between the two sentient beings, Father and Son is special.
It is an agreed unity.
The words you use “superfluous” and “sentient beings”, are not found in scripture.We must abide in scripture as you say!
Hi W,
That is one approach to dialogue but a more mature one would be to address the issues surely?
NHYou should practice what you preach!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2007,02:13) Hi W,
You say
“7 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.As you can see, Paul was speaking of the Lord Jesus who he knew to be the “King Of Kings” and now calls him “The only wise God”.
Surely you are not telling us the Father is not wise?
You get so entangled trying to bind together this battered unholy trinity you devised.
NHAre you calling the Apostle Paul a Modelist!
Paul is not saying the Father is not the Wise God. He is simply saying that Jesus is the Wise God also!
Your words NH. Not mine or Pauls!
You should believe him.
The Father and Son are One!
Do you believe this?
Quote (charity @ Feb. 26 2007,23:18) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 26 2007,15:44) Quote (charity @ Feb. 26 2007,08:06) Can you see the throne that God gives to him? Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Repairing the wastes of many generations
charity
CharityDo you think that the throne in Revelations is the same throne David sat on?
Did David sit in the throne of YHWY?
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
“even as I also overcame”
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.Isa 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.
Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Vision not yet in effect but promised
Rev 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.The vision in effect his soul made a sacrifice; he shall prolong his days; and see his seed
Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
His seed to prolong their days following Him
Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.To sit with him on the throne to those who overcome; accomplished promise of God fulfill by the son Whos purpose was to preform his fathers promise on earth and establish his fathers throne for ever and ever
Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.And this throne is unseen but by faith until God reveal
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
CharityYou did not answer my question?
Let me be more specific.
Did the man David or will David at anytime sit in this throne?
Rev 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.Selah
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2007,20:12) This is not “Modelism”. This is a straight forward clear interpretation of scripture in its context. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are One.
This is scriptural!
Jesus wants us to be one with God and also one with his son.This is scriptural. This is what Jesus taught. Scripture teaches that we can be one with God.
You however, swap Jesus prayer and teaching for your guru Athanasius. You are obviously free to do this and it is your personal choice, but don't pretend for 1 minute that Christ taught Athanasius's Trinity doctrine.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 25 2007,11:36) Hi Cubes You say…
Quote It is good to see you back.
I am sorry you feel that I am being disingenuous here. I can only try and assure you that I am not.I am responding generally to your posts as I haven't had a chance to read them all in detail at this time. Hope to respond to other things later as I am able.
Good to be back. Thanks!Ok. Let me try again. These are your statements in your post…
Quote After all as you say, he is a mystery and the gropings in the darkness by Trinitarians have found him to be a “Trinity,” Big difference between the Father and a Trinity, between the son and a Trinity. Still, as Paul loved those greeks and wanted to impart the truth to them so that they too may grow even closer to God through his beloved son, we do the same with all prayers to God to that end
“found him to be a trinity”, “the Father and a trinity”, “the Son and a trinity”.
Total misrepresentation and misquotes. You then go on to condescend to Trinitarians making them like the Greeks who worshipped false Gods and groped in darkness.Disingenuous? Absolutely!
Hi WJ,Regarding my statements which you say are disingenuous, I stand by them:
1. That is to say that, God is not a Trinity. Any doctrine that presents him as such is intentionally or unintentionally false. This is not about getting a name wrong, such as Yeshua/Yahshua vs. Jesus etc. It is actually about the whole identity and being of a person.
We say Jesus when we should perhaps say the actual Hebrew name of Jesus, the Son of God. Problem is, we do not know which for sure but when given evidence of the real name from the scriptures, we should start using that, IMO. However, imagine now beyond or aside from using the correct name, one goes and invents another creature altogether to be the son of God! I saw glimpses of an article on the internet yesterday which claimed that they had found the casket and I suppose the bones of Jesus… and there was something else being said about this Jesus having a son! Obviously, as far as I am concerned (and my faith matters only to God in the end), they've got the wrong guy! Same name or not. As far as we scripture believing Christians know, our Jesus rose again on the third day, ascended into heaven where he now is and is coming again, and furthermore he never personally sired any child.
The experts who put the info together may be knowingly or unknowingly wrong, but wrong all the same as far as scripture is concerned.
So when you come back and knowingly or unknowingly tell me that our One and only Father YHWH is a Trinity, or that his son is a Trinity etc, as far as scripture is concerned, you are wrong. Now the burden of proof is on me and those of us who preach that God is NO such trinity, and I believe that God has allowed us to show THAT, given the enormous data in just about every verse of scripture. It's up to those who hear the Lord to heed his voice and believe.
2. Are we not called to stand in the GAP (Ezekiel) — Which literally is an Acronym for GO AND PRAY anyway.
3. To further respond to your accusation as to my integrity would detract further from the topic so here, I offer the other cheek.
Did you ever wonder that we only have two cheeks? What happens when both of them get smacked? Just a little humor there. Hope to get back to the rest of your post in a few.
Hi cubes,
Athanasius certainly has his devoted preachers.
They must take responsibility for distancing people from their loving Father by altering His nature.
The millstone is the ultimate danger.I would like to add that there is the Holy Trinity. However, that term got usurped by those who developed the Athanasian interpretation of that term.
The early Church used the term Trinity but not to mean what it later became understood as.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2007,08:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2007,20:12) This is not “Modelism”. This is a straight forward clear interpretation of scripture in its context. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are One.
This is scriptural!
Jesus wants us to be one with God and also one with his son.This is scriptural. This is what Jesus taught. Scripture proves teaches that we can be one with God.
You however, swap Jesus prayer and teaching for your guru Athanasius. You are obviously free to do this and it is your personal choice, but don't pretend for 1 minute that Christ taught Athanasius's Trinity doctrine.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 27 2007,08:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2007,20:12) This is not “Modelism”. This is a straight forward clear interpretation of scripture in its context. The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit are One.
This is scriptural!
Jesus wants us to be one with God and also one with his son.This is scriptural. This is what Jesus taught. Scripture proves teaches that we can be one with God.
You however, swap Jesus prayer and teaching for your guru Athanasius. You are obviously free to do this and it is your personal choice, but don't pretend for 1 minute that Christ taught Athanasius's Trinity doctrine.
t8You say
Quote Jesus wants us to be one with God and also one with his son. What kind of Oneness do you speak of? This kind of Oneness?
“If you have seen me you have seen the Father”
“For as the Father has life in himself; so hath he given the Son to have life in himself;”
“Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father”
“I am the way the truth and the life”
“I am the ressurection and the life”
First of all if you think that to be One with God is to share in the same Unity/Oneness that the Word/God who was with God and was God shared, you are way off base.
Does our unity with Jesus who is the the Lord from heaven mean that we should be called Lords?
Does our unity with the Father and Son mean that we are Deity?
Will you make yourself as a Son of God equal to the Monogenes (Unique Son)?
Yes we share in his divine nature but we are not divinity!
You say…
Quote You however, swap Jesus prayer and teaching for your guru Athanasius. You are obviously free to do this and it is your personal choice, but don't pretend for 1 minute that Christ taught Athanasius's Trinity doctrine. Again, trying to force the Modelist view on me. Does it add validity to your statements by misrepresenting me or the Trinitarian view point?
T8. Again, is it possible for the Word/Jesus that was with God and was God to have fellowship with the Father and share unity and Oneness as God before the foundation of the world?
Why do you limit him?
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Jn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD [Yahweh] thy redeemer, and THY MAKER, from the womb: I AM THE LORD, THAT MAKE ALL THINGS, that ALONE STRETCH OUT THE HEAVENS, that established the earth, AND THERE IS NONE WITH ME.Now either the scriptures contradict themselves or you have to concede to the Oneness that the Son and the Father share as God!
Maybe you should consult your Guru Arian about some scriptures that he left out!
BTW, study your history and the scriptures, Trinitarianism didnt start with Athanasius or Constantine.
Now look at these scriptures and tell me if you share in this.
Isa 48:11
For mine own sake, EVEN for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should MY NAME be polluted? and I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER.Isa 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I AM THE FIRST, I ALSO AM THE LAST.Isa 48:13
MINE HAND ALSO HATH LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND MY RIGHT HAND HATH SPANNED THE HEAVENS: when I call unto them, they stand up together.Heb 1:
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (will they be worshipping you?)
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Will the Father say these words to any of his born again Sons of God?
Can you find the Sons of God in this throne?
Rev 7:
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.You say in your writings on this forum…
Quote So why don't translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). In order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word 'divine'.
It is not incorrect to say the Word was God. You are correct.That’s because he is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
He is the Lord from heaven!
Selah
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