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Quote Hi WJ, I've enjoyed posting with you and shall miss you and the interaction (It was through responding to your posts that the Lord opened my eyes to Genesis 15f, in ways I hadn't quite understood before)…
Hope your absence won't be long and much more so that:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD, and OF Jesus our Lord, 3 According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Now I hope you do not mind that I strongly disagree with the doctrinal conclusions you've made above which I believe to sincerely misinterpret and misrepresent the intent and message of the gospel of the One God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is preached by Christ, the prophets and apostles.Jesus is made Lord over all creation and is Lord to the glory of HE who made him Lord. May we know the Father and his son as THEY ought to be known and give glory to God.
Blessings.
Hi Cubes
Hi Cubes
You say…
Quote I've enjoyed posting with you and shall miss you and the interaction (It was through responding to your posts that the Lord opened my eyes to Genesis 15f, in ways I hadn't quite understood before)… I have also enjoyed our conversations and postings and missed you as well as others.
But I am back for now and hope you have still missed me!You say….
Quote Hope your absence won't be long and much more so that: Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of GOD, and OF Jesus our Lord, 3 According as HIS divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Now I hope you do not mind that I strongly disagree with the doctrinal conclusions you've made above which I believe to sincerely misinterpret and misrepresent the intent and message of the gospel of the One God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who is preached by Christ, the prophets and apostles.
And, I hope you do not mind that I strongly disagree with you and your doctrinal conclusions which I believe sincerely misinterpret and misrepresent the Gospel of the
One God..
The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, which is preached and written of by the Apostles and the Prophets.
Eph 1:17
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:There is no conflict in the Godhead. Jesus the man calls his Father God.
The Father calls Jesus God, (the Word that was with God and is God).Heb 1:
8: But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9: Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord “kurios” unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;(Fathers knowledge or Jesus?)
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the **knowledge of GOD, and OF Jesus our Lord**, 3 According as HIS (The Father or Jesus?) divine power (The Fathers Divine Power or Jesus?) hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of HIM (knowledge of the Father or Jesus?) that hath called us to glory and virtue:(The Fathers Glory and Virtue Or Jesus?) Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature,(The Fathers Divine Nature or Jesus?) having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Vrs 8 of 2Pe I says…
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the **knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.** Compare with Col 1:10.Why is it that the Arian followers always resort to misrepresentation of the Trinitarians by inferring that Trinitarians are “Modelist”?
The Apostle Paul almost always mentions both the Father and the Son in his salutations and valedictions because he wanted to make it clear as a Monothiestic Jew that there is only One God and One Lord and One Faith and One Baptism etc. etc. etc., and that he was not a “modelist” nor a Polythiest nor a Unitarian nor a Henothiest, but that he was a Monothiest that believed the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One .
Jn 10:30
I and my Father are one.II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord “kurios” is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is,there is liberty.I Pe 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Jesus said…
Matt 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.You say….
Quote Jesus is made Lord over all creation and is Lord to the glory of HE who made him Lord. May we know the Father and his son as THEY ought to be known and give glory to God. Yes the Father has made Jesus “LORD” over all and given back to him the Glory that he shared with the Father as God before the world was.
Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and ChristThis is post resurrection ….
Heb 10:
12: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13: From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.Matt 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, til
l I make thine enemies thy footstool?Let us not forget that Jesus was and is the LORD from heaven.
I Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. See Phil 2.Heb 10:9
Then said he, (who said? The Lord from heaven said), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the secondZech 14:
3 Then shall THE LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.Zech 14:9
And the LORD,(YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD, and his NAME ONE.(Yeshua)The Lord from heaven, Jesus the Word/God was tabernacled among us to pay the price which “no man” could pay! Jesus the Word/God by offering up his own perfect and sinless body as a living sacrifice, the Lamb of God, came and became the mediator between God and man, because he was and is God and man, who is worshipped and served as God , ONE with the Father, and Holy Spirit.
He is the second Adam, The LORD from heaven, not the Father but the Son, The Express Image of the Invisible God, the brightness of his Glory, the very essence of his Person….
Jesus, Yeshua, meaning “YHWY is Salvation” the Name above all names.
Isa 45:
21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22: Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23: I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.Phil 2:
10: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and **every tongue shall confess to God.**Blessings
Quote And WJ, I feel to tell you that I speak specifically of the Trinity and not to your love for God or concerning other matters of the scriptures. I feel the first commandment is fundamental to being the children of God through Christ so make no excuses for it (or else I would be a universalist who believed in various Gods and the way to them. The way to my God is through the Son of God, Yeshua, not through a Trinity Son-father… you see). I feel that worshipers of the Trinity fall in the category of those in Paul's day who worshiped the “Unknown” God. After all as you say, he is a mystery and the gropings in the darkness by Trinitarians have found him to be a “Trinity,” rather than the Father, whom they fervently worship the best they know how. Were the greeks right?
Paul had not attained, he too groped in the dark and as we, he dimly saw and looked to the day when he shall see much more clearly…, but like Paul and the apostles we know this much, that God is not “unknown” in the sense the greeks meant, that he is not a “trinity” in the way Trinitarians claim. We know this much because it is written: that the true God is one, and that he is the God and Father of our firstborn brother and Lord Jesus Christ, our hope of glory. Therefore, our Father too, being that we are born of the same spirit by which he sired his son (John 3). Yes, our hope of glory.
Big difference between the Father and a Trinity, between the son and a Trinity. Still, as Paul loved those greeks and wanted to impart the truth to them so that they too may grow even closer to God through his beloved son, we do the same with all prayers to God to that end.
Now I invite you to please go over Acts 17 again with me, if you don't mind.
Remain built up in Christ.
Hi Cubes
You say…
Quote After all as you say, he is a mystery and the gropings in the darkness by Trinitarians have found him to be a “Trinity,” rather than the Father, whom they fervently worship the best they know how. Were the greeks right?
This again is proof that you either don’t understand the Trinitarian view or worse you purposely misrepresent it.“found him to be a trinity”. This is a Modelist view, not a Trinitarian one. No Trinitarian believes that God the Father is a Trinity.
The Trinitarian view believes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE.
Don’t you believe this Cubes? They are One are they not?
Ah but you are afraid to say that they are one God. For this would go against your Arian view.
Why not accept all of the scriptures rather than a few select ones?
You say…
Quote Big difference between the Father and a Trinity, between the son and a Trinity. Still, as Paul loved those greeks and wanted to impart the truth to them so that they too may grow even closer to God through his beloved son, we do the same with all prayers to God to that end.
How disingenuous my friend!You say…
Quote Now I invite you to please go over Acts 17 again with me, if you don't mind. Remain built up in Christ.
I will look at Acts 17 and give you a reply!But I would ask one thing of you.
Please tell me…
Other than the title Father, What Name or Attribute or Apallation of God in scripture can not be ascribed or is not ascribed to Jesus?
Just Give me One.
Blessings
Hey worshippingJesus,
I do not believe in the trinity doctrine mainly because of the belief that all three are co-equal.
Jesus talked himself hoarse telling everyone that his Father was greater than He.I am vey happy to see you back though. I missed your thought provoking posts and
admire your dedication to your personal beliefs, even if they differ from mine.
It is from people that have different opinions than I, that I am able to learn new things.Tim
Hi,
Every thread, no matter what the original subject seems to return to discussion about the trinity.
I was interested in more discussion on the original purpose of this thread.
Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.This is precisely when I believe that God will save the entire population of the world. Both the living and dead.
The past and the present.
Isn't that what we say is required for salvation?Tim
Quote Hey worshippingJesus, I do not believe in the trinity doctrine mainly because of the belief that all three are co-equal.
Jesus talked himself hoarse telling everyone that his Father was greater than He.I am vey happy to see you back though. I missed your thought provoking posts and
admire your dedication to your personal beliefs, even if they differ from mine.
It is from people that have different opinions than I, that I am able to learn new things.Tim
Hi TimothyVI
You know my friend, you should not listen to the voices of the Arian followers.
You do not accept the Trinitarian view because you dont understand it.
No true Trinitarian believes that Jesus is equal to the Father in rank, although for the moment ALL Power in heaven and in earth is given to him.
And he sits at the Right Hand Of God, not above God nor beneath him but by his side, the highest exalted place in the universe any being could be elevated to.
Trinitarians believe that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in being, Substance, essence, and nature.
Just as a human Father has a Son, the Father being greater than the Son in rank, however the son is 100% human as the father.
Nature itself teaches us that everything bears after its own kind.
Jesus was concieved by the Holy Spirit in the virgin Mary and the Word which was with God and was God, took on human form and the man Jesus was born who was called by the Angel the Son Of God.
Lk 1:35
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Ask the Arians about who it was that brought conception to the Son of God. Was it God or the Spirit?Who is the Father of Jesus? Of course the Trinitarian view best explains it.
The Holy Spirit is God. So simple a child can see it.
And also if you notice it was revealed to Mary that he was the Son of God.
Peter wasnt the Only one that Father revealed this to.
To be called the Son of God from the Jews perspective was to make him equal to God, other wise all of the Jews would be calling themselves Sons of God.
Thomas understood that Jesus was his Lord and his God!
Blessings
Quote Hi, Every thread, no matter what the original subject seems to return to discussion about the trinity.
I was interested in more discussion on the original purpose of this thread.
Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.This is precisely when I believe that God will save the entire population of the world. Both the living and dead.
The past and the present.
Isn't that what we say is required for salvation?TimothyVI
True.
And who is that God and what is his name by which we shall be saved?
Hi W,
You say
“And he sits at the Right Hand Of God, not above God nor beneath him but by his side, the highest exalted place in the universe any being could be elevated to.”So he still is WITH GOD.
“Trinitarians believe that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in being, Substance, essence, and nature.”
So the one WITH GOD is shown as having his own being.
“Just as a human Father has a Son, the Father being greater than the Son in rank, however the son is 100% human as the father.”
You tell us there is one God but show these two beings have an order of authority.
The Father is not man of any percentage.“Nature itself teaches us that everything bears after its own kind.”
So God beget Gods yet are not begotten but remain one God??
So either the son is not a true son or there are more than one being called God.
Which is it?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 21 2007,12:29) And he sits at the Right Hand Of God, not above God nor beneath him but by his side, the highest exalted place in the universe any being could be elevated to
Can you hear yourself?“Seated at the right hand of God.”
And you should also know that we are seated with Christ on his throne.
If we are seated with Christ are we Christ?
“Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.”
Have a good think about it.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 21 2007,03:50) Every Knee Shall Bow And Confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. God also made Jesus Lord and Christ.
Even the demons have bow their knee and confessed t8God has not taken his own soul from prison and judgment
Check the preexistence of one elected as the holy one of Israel
Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.God dose not need to prolong his own Life?
Even the demons know this? the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Mar 5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
Quote Hi W,
You say
“And he sits at the Right Hand Of God, not above God nor beneath him but by his side, the highest exalted place in the universe any being could be elevated to.”So he still is WITH GOD.
“Trinitarians believe that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in being, Substance, essence, and nature.”
So the one WITH GOD is shown as having his own being.
“Just as a human Father has a Son, the Father being greater than the Son in rank, however the son is 100% human as the father.”
You tell us there is one God but show these two beings have an order of authority.
The Father is not man of any percentage.“Nature itself teaches us that everything bears after its own kind.”
So God beget Gods yet are not begotten but remain one God??
So either the son is not a true son or there are more than one being called God.
Which is it?
NHYou say…
Quote So he still is WITH GOD. By this are you saying that the Jesus can not be ONE with the Father and still be with him?
Can you be one flesh with your wife and still be with her?
You say…
Quote So the one WITH GOD is shown as having his own being. Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
You say…
Quote
You tell us there is one God but show these two beings have an order of authority.
Col 1:19
For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,Col 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,I Cor 15:28
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.You say…
Quote
The Father is not man of any percentage.Never said he was.
You say…
Quote So God beget Gods yet are not begotten but remain one God??
So either the son is not a true son or there are more than one being called God.
Which is it?
Muddying the water Nick?No. The scriptures tell us…
God beget the Son through his miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit who is God, at which time the Word that was with God and the Word that was God took on human form becoming the SON of God.
At no time did the Word who now has a body, cease to be ONE with the Father.
Mind boggling huh NH?
Welcome to the wonderful and Glorious truth of the Mystery of God.
Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Hi w,
So what of the decisions of Christ to empty himself and to come in obedience to God?
That was uniting his will with that of the greater being and this unity continued and was given greater meaning when the Father shared His Spirit with His Son at the Jordan.
But if they were always one in being how could the Son agree to that unity of will?
Of what significance is agreement of one part of a body with another?The marvellous servant Son, Jesus Christ saved our bacon by these selfless independant decisions and he could have decided not to do so.
WorshippingJesus you say
No. The scriptures tell us…
God beget the Son through his miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit who is God, at which time the Word that was with God and the Word that was God took on human form becoming the SON of God.Sleep on
Son Of Man first
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.You leave us no way or mean to follow him who can behave as God in the flesh? Thief?
Mar 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.He shall be “called the Son of God “
Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.The spirit Of God descends on him; understand the spirit of God who is a spirit descended on Him then
Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the *Spirit of God descending* like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.Stop pushing against God AND GLORIFY His Son
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.Wake up!
There is an army of very strong men rising around youQuote The Unknown God. Acts 17 A few things to touch on
· So for three Sabbath days in Thessalonica, Paul was in the synagogue of the JEWS (not atheists) reasoning with them OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES. About what? Christ is God? God has been discovered as a Trinity? Not! Instead here is what he was telling them: Christ must suffer, must rise again from the dead. THIS JESUS IS THE CHRIST!Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
So then WHO and WHAT IS CHRIST? There is an existing thread for that discussion, however the following is clear enough: Mat 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?….But whom say ye that I am?
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.The Christ, son of the Living God. The anointed son of the Living God: Is 61 and Luke 4:17f to list but two sources out of many.
Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to IDOLATRY.
Act 17:17 Therefore DISPUTED he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
Act 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.“He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods…” how many times have we been accused by the Trinitarians of polytheism when it is they who insist “three distinct persons” is our one Living God and Father of Jesus Christ.
So now just what exactly did Paul say to the Athenians regarding the Unknown God? Acts 17:22-32 (previous post).
He made heaven and earth and all the things therein (through Christ, the firstborn of creation and the resurrection); he does not dwell in temples made with hands nor is he worshipped through such; he gives life, breath and all things to us all (including what is given to the heir of all things who was given to have life in himself, and who was raised from the dead by the Spirit of God).
We know that Paul is speaking of God and was not referring to Jesus as God because previous verses including verse 31 make it clear that Christ is the MAN ordained BY GOD (HEBREWS) to judge the world in righteousness, and to bring assurance to us all of the promise of the resurrection. In fact Paul goes on to say elsewhere that if Christ be not risen, then of all men, those of us who have believed in God through Christ to that end are the most to be pitied.
Why?
What need has God of a resurrection? Does God die? Why is he called the Living God if he dies or ever died? Why are we told that the Father would not leave the soul of his anointed in sheol or his body see corruption? And why are we given a similar promise concerning our hope of resurrection in Christ?
Is Yeshua God or some kind of a triune being aka Trinity God? Not according to the scriptures.
Hi Cubes
Interesting how you point out that the context of Chapter 17 is about the **Uknown God**.
Yet Paul is preaching Salvation through the name of Jesus.
Act 17:18
Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.HMMM. Paul is preaching Jesus and they think he is ”setting forth of strange gods.”
You say…
Quote “He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods…” how many times have we been accused by the Trinitarians of polytheism when it is they who insist “three distinct persons” is our one Living God and Father of Jesus Christ.
What a gross misrepresentation. Cubes, in order to have honest dialogue, there should be enough respect among the parties to not make false accusations concerning ones belief. I have not falsely represented you.I have never said that “three distinct persons is our one Living God and Father of Jesus Christ.”
Your wording implies a Modelist view.
You say…
Quote What need has God of a resurrection? Does God die? Why is he called the Living God if he dies or ever died? Why are we told that the Father would not leave the soul of his anointed in sheol or his body see corruption? And why are we given a similar promise concerning our hope of resurrection in Christ?
Again, either you do not understand the Trinitarian view or worse you misrepresent it.You answered your own question in your statement. God did not die. Jesus Spirit the Word/God was in Sheol for three days and three nights.
Matt 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.The Body of Christ died as the living sacrifice.
Heb 10:
10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.You say…
Quote Is Yeshua God or some kind of a triune being aka Trinity God? Not according to the scriptures.
How disingenuous!What if I was to say…
“Is Yeshua just a mortal man like we are, just a puppet on a string that the Father dictates over and forces him to the cross to die for us”?
Would that be a true representation of your belief?
In summary, I see nothing in the 17th chapter of Acts that disproves the Trinitarian belief, in fact it seems to me it supports it.
Blessings
Hi W,
There is a scriptural view of God and a trinitarian view.
God inspires the scriptures so what inspires trinity theory?Quote Hi W,
There is a scriptural view of God and a trinitarian view.
God inspires the scriptures so what inspires trinity theory?NH
There is a scriptural view of God and an Arian view.
God inspires the scriptures so what inspires the Arian theory?To WorshippingJesus.
There is a scriptural and revealed view of God and then there is the philosophical man-made view. The bible doesn't reveal the Trinity view, so what is the scriptural view?
Here is the scriptural view:
1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”Evidently you do not agree with the above because it specifically states that the Father is God and that this God sent his son into the world who is Jesus and that this same God made Jesus his son, both Lord and Christ of his creation.
This is what we preach and you have disagreed with these points many times with us.
Hi t8
We should let all of scripture interpret scripture.
You quote…
Quote 1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
The distorted view of this scripture is obviously the foundational scripture for all Arians.Even though there is no implication here that Paul is apposed to the deity of Christ.
So, you think by this scripture that there is “only one God, the Father”, therefore Jesus is not God.
But lets apply that logic to the whole verse, “there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ” therefore God is not Lord.This conclusion is ludicrous, since we know that God is Lord, so your invalid inference applied to this verse is evident.
You quote…
Quote I Cor 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Now lets look at the context…Corinth was at this time a pagan city. Paganism and polytheism was the order of the day. But the Apostle Paul does an amazing thing in these verses. First he states in vrs 4…
“That there is none other God but one.” Somehow, those on this sight seem to always leave this one out!
Them in vrs 5 Paul speaks of “gods many and lords many”. Then emphatically declares “to US there is but one God”.
Then in vrs 6 without hesitation Paul glossed “God” with the Father, and “Lord” (Kurios) with Jesus Christ, adding in each case an explanatory phrase: “God” is the Father, “from whom are all things and we to him,” and the “Lord” is Jesus, “through whom are all things and we through him.”
If Paul was defending Unitarianism here against the polytheistic views of the Corinthians who believed in many gods and lords, he wouldn’t have mentioned Jesus as “Kurios” in the in the same breath, and ascribing a God like attribute to him, “through whom are all things and we through him.” .
Unless of course he knew and believed that Jesus the Word/God is Divinely and Uniqually ONE with the Father
Paul as a true Monothiest who called himself a Hebrew of the Hebrews knew that Jesus was God in the flesh.
T8. You say…
Quote So why don't translations of the bible translate John 1:1 as the Word was divine. Well first of all it is not incorrect to say that the Word was god, but Trinitarians translators say the Word was God which makes readers think that Jesus is the God (the person). In order to bring out the true meaning, some translations actually use the word 'divine'. So you say that it is correct to call Jesus God, when Paul states… 6 But to us there is but one God . Now if you believe it is correct to call Jesus God, then to be a true monotheist you would have to believe Jesus and the Father are one God. Which I know you don’t hold this view. So you go on with your own interpretation that the Word is Divine.
Even though John used the same word “theos” in the same sentence for the Father God.
Is this not the kind of practice that you and many others accuse the Trinitarians of doing. “Going outside of scripture”. Then you start out your post with…
“Now for the understanding. I will let scripture interpret scripture.”
So your delima is that all the major translators that have any credibility at all translated Jn 1:1 the same…
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I think they knew more than you or I.
BTW, what credentials do you have to appose or disagree with the translations of more than 500 Scholars.
New International Version Bible – translation committee of 115 scholars.
King James Version – translation committee of 54 scholars.
New King James Version – 119 scholars.
New American Standard Bible – 54 scholars
Contemporary English Version – 100+ scholars
English Standard Version – 100+ scholars
New Jerusalem Bible – 36 scholars
And that’s not all of them.At the very least you are being disingenuous!
So we move on.
You quote…
Quote Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Lets compare scripture with scripture!1. One Body and One Spirit
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Tell me t8, who is the ONE Spirit?
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord (Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord (Kurios) is, there is liberty.Who is the Lord here? If Jesus is the spirit, why does Paul refer to the Spirit as the Spirit of God?
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.Here we see the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God are the same. Simply put the Spirit of Jesus, God dwells in us.
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?2. Just as you were called to one hope when you were called
1 Tim 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ, which is our hope;Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.Who is our hope in?
3.One Lord (Kurios)
1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.t8. If you insist on pushing your rule saying that One God means only the Father, then you should hold to the same rule that One Lord means only Jesus. If not then, why do you condemn Trinitarians for saying the God means more than One person. The truth of the scripture is…
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Matt 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.The Word with God who was and is God! Gloriously one with the Father and the Spirit.
4. One Faith (not 2)
Gal 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.1 Thes 1:8
For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward “theos” is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.Here we see one faith in Jesus who is God!
The Arians must get all messed up here.
Is it faith in God or faith in Jesus?
Is it God that gives us light or Jesus that gives us light?
Is it God that heals or Jesus that heals?
Is it God who pours out his Spirit or Jesus who baptizes in the Spirit and fire?
Is it God who comforts us or Jesus who comforts us?
Is it God who is in our midst when there is 2 or 3 or is it Christ who is in our midst?
Is it God who is with us to the end of the world or Jesus who is with us?
Is it God I pray to or is it Jesus I pray to?
Is it the Word of God that is my daily bread. Or is it the Word of Jesus who is the bread?
Is it God who shall raise me up at the last day or is it Jesus who will raise me up?
Is it God who is my king and Saviour or is it Jesus who is my King and Saviour?
Is it God who calls us or Jesus who calls us?
Is it God who gives us Grace and Life or is it Jesus who gives us Grace and life?
Is it God who gives us strength or is it Jesus who gives us strength?
Is it God who is our shephard or is it Jesus who is our shephard?
Is it God who leads us or is it Jesus who leads us?
Is it God who gives us power or is it Jesus who gives us power?
Etc. Etc. Etc.Jn 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.One Faith in One God my friends!
5. One baptism
1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.6. One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
And all the Fulness of this one God is found in Jesus!
Col 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;Col 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.You say…
Quote So as we can see, The Father is God and Jesus is Lord.
True. And the scriptures also show the Father is Lord and Jesus is God!You say…
Quote And the true confession is that Jesus is Lord and this confession is to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.Saying that Jesus is God is against scripture. Quoting scriptures that say Jesus is Lord and making out that this somehow makes Jesus God is false thinking and false teaching.
So if anyone believes that Jesus is Lord, then he believes this because of the Spirit of God.
Since when have you heard a Trinitarian deny Jesus is Lord?You say…. calling Jesus God is against scripture.
Your statement is a lie against scripture, for the scriptures call Jesus God.
Ascribing the word “LORD” as Divinity to any being other than the true God would be Idolatry.
Yet this is exactly what your Arian teaching does by making Jesus another Lord rather than the LORD from heaven.
1 Cor. 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.Thomas who walked with our Lord and was there knew what confessing Jesus as Lord meant.
Jn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.Lets see what confessing Jesus as Lord means by comparing more scripture.
Rom 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.Phil 2:11
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.1 Jn 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ (The Lord from heaven) is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ (The Lord from heaven) is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.Now since we know by the scriptures that the Lord from heaven is the Word/God, a little child could understand that its God who came in the flesh. This is the true confession of Jesus being Lord.
Yes he is The Born Son of God , The Lord of Lords, The King of Kings, Wonderfull, Counselor, The mighty God, everlasting father, Prince of peace, First and the Last, Beginning and the End, Alpha and Omega and many other names and appalations.
Tell me t8, since he was/is the Lord from heaven before he was/is the Son of God.
Why do Arians treat the title Son of God above all other titles?
You say…
Quote This is the real reason certain men try to convince people to believe that Jesus Christ is God. Because believing such a thing means that you could not possibly believe that Jesus is Lord.
There is no convincing anyone of God. But Teaching Jesus is One with the Father and the Spirit as God is scriptural. To teach anything else is not honoring the Son as we honor the Father.If men do not see the Deity and the Divinity of Jesus but only see his humanity then they will not have a complete knowledge of the One true God and will find themselves giving less honor to the Son than to the Father which is contrary to the teaching of scriptures.
You say…
Quote Proof? Try this: Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”So God made him Lord. This cannot be reconciled with the argument that Jesus is YHWH. The other scriptures above confirm this.
Whos proof? Your Proof?
Since we know he is the Lord “from heaven” then what you are inferring here is untrue. This is a distortion of the truth.
The context indicates post resurrection after all power in heaven and earth was given to him and he was Glorified with the Glory that he shared with the Father as God.
Are you implying Jesus is created? If so when was he made?
Mk 12:36
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said
to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.You say…
Quote If you have ears to hear then listen. The Lord God is one God.
For us, there is one God the Father.
For us, there is one Lord Jesus Christ.
God made Jesus both Lord and Christ.It is simple to understand, but only difficult for those who believe otherwise. Even a child can easily comprehend that God is the Father and the Lord is the son and Christ.
T8 If you have ears to hear then you would listen to all of the inspired scriptures.The Lord God is One God.
For us there is One God,
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The Father says so.It is simple to understand. But when you turn your face from certain scriptures you don’t accept and throw them out, then there is no harmony in scripture for you.
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.Thats a pretty bold acclamation for someone who is just a man or an annointed Prophet or a Son of God like us in every way as many here say.
We call it Gods word and yet Jesus who is named the Word of God takes claim to it. UMMM.
Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.Even a child can understand that the Son of the Father is One with his Father, God!
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