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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:09) Hi W,
You say.
“This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?”So if the Father gave Christ all power some things are obvious.
God, the Father, is the ultimate source of all power.
The Son is not the source of power but must be given it.
If the Son was given all power then there was a time when he did not have all power.
So the Son is not the same as the Father but he is reliant on the Father for power.
If the Son did not have all power then he was not the Almighty God of scripture.
Like us and though derived directly from God he is relatively powerless in his own right.
Any equality in function that he has is because he has been given it and not of his nature.
So his nature is not the same as that of almighty God who never needs to be given anything.
Like us he could do all things because of Who strengthened him.
We can follow him.
NHYes there was a time when he didnt have all power.
When he humbled himself and gave up that power to take on human form and being found in fashion as a man humbled himself even to the death of the cross.
But he has returned back to the Father and recieved again the Glory that he shared with the Father from eternity as God!
God in the flesh, the Lord from Heaven NH! So it is written!
PS Cubes, the first response to your post should be here by the end of the day! Blessings!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:09) Hi W,
You say.
“This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?”So if the Father gave Christ all power some things are obvious.
God, the Father, is the ultimate source of all power.
The Son is not the source of power but must be given it.
If the Son was given all power then there was a time when he did not have all power.
So the Son is not the same as the Father but he is reliant on the Father for power.
If the Son did not have all power then he was not the Almighty God of scripture.
Like us and though derived directly from God he is relatively powerless in his own right.
Any equality in function that he has is because he has been given it and not of his nature.
So his nature is not the same as that of almighty God who never needs to be given anything.
Like us he could do all things because of Who strengthened him.
We can follow him.
NHYes. I understand your concept of Jesus being a puppet on a string, with no power of his own or no life of his own, etc, etc, etc.
Wake up he is the creator of the universe!
BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:34) Hi W,
If your God is triune then your God is not Almighty.
An aspect of your trinity god was powerless, became totally human and died.
Our God is Mighty, even Almighty.
NHSo what you are saying is… God isnt “powerfull enough” to take on a human Body and be found in the likeness of men and become our “ONLY” Savior and redeem us back to himself?
Jer 32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:24) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,04:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:04) I guess that is a home run.
He he…..Yeah right. You haven't even come close to explaining the texts I cited.
Wow, do you possess some secret knowledge that I am unaware of?Are you really that deep?
Come on. Be humble. Relate to people. Jump off your high horse.
If you are that much better than myself, Nick, and others, then why do you even bother with us?
Hey slugger, I wasn't the one hitting home runs….
The point I was trying to make was was that the detail in the texts I cited cannot be be explained away with a 2 minute post. Clearly YHWH was seen and heard by the patriachs. The “they saw a messenger” explanation doesn't really suffice.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 08 2007,17:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:09) Hi W,
You say.
“This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?”So if the Father gave Christ all power some things are obvious.
God, the Father, is the ultimate source of all power.
The Son is not the source of power but must be given it.
If the Son was given all power then there was a time when he did not have all power.
So the Son is not the same as the Father but he is reliant on the Father for power.
If the Son did not have all power then he was not the Almighty God of scripture.
Like us and though derived directly from God he is relatively powerless in his own right.
Any equality in function that he has is because he has been given it and not of his nature.
So his nature is not the same as that of almighty God who never needs to be given anything.
Like us he could do all things because of Who strengthened him.
We can follow him.
NHYes there was a time when he didnt have all power.
When he humbled himself and gave up that power to take on human form and being found in fashion as a man humbled himself even to the death of the cross.
But he has returned back to the Father and recieved again the Glory that he shared with the Father from eternity as God!
God in the flesh, the Lord from Heaven NH! So it is written!
PS Cubes, the first response to your post should be here by the end of the day! Blessings!
Hi Is 1.18,
So as “God on earth” was Christ for a time a powerless God?
And when he did works of power on earth was it in his own power that he had been emptied of, or in the powers he was given on earth, that of God, the Father?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 08 2007,18:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:09) Hi W,
You say.
“This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?”So if the Father gave Christ all power some things are obvious.
God, the Father, is the ultimate source of all power.
The Son is not the source of power but must be given it.
If the Son was given all power then there was a time when he did not have all power.
So the Son is not the same as the Father but he is reliant on the Father for power.
If the Son did not have all power then he was not the Almighty God of scripture.
Like us and though derived directly from God he is relatively powerless in his own right.
Any equality in function that he has is because he has been given it and not of his nature.
So his nature is not the same as that of almighty God who never needs to be given anything.
Like us he could do all things because of Who strengthened him.
We can follow him.
NHYes. I understand your concept of Jesus being a puppet on a string, with no power of his own or no life of his own, etc, etc, etc.
Wake up he is the creator of the universe!
BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST!
Hi W,
Is he not mighty with a glory of his own?Yessir.
But what of his greater Father and God? Awesome.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 08 2007,18:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,17:34) Hi W,
If your God is triune then your God is not Almighty.
An aspect of your trinity god was powerless, became totally human and died.
Our God is Mighty, even Almighty.
NHSo what you are saying is… God isnt “powerfull enough” to take on a human Body and be found in the likeness of men and become our “ONLY” Savior and redeem us back to himself?
Jer 32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?
Hi W,
We worship the immortal Almighty God.
You should too. Jesus did.
Follow him.Hi W,
Do you really think that the God Who does not change and cannot die, in being able to do all things, would include in those abilitites that of changing his own nature to that of a puny mortal man and dying? Wake up! He sent His son!Hello Cubes!
You say…
Quote I disagree, for instance, with your interpretation and conclusion of John 4: Don't forget, Jesus himself IS the gift of God, in as much as there are other gifts of God which come to us through him, when we believe that God sent his son to us. Thus in a sense, Christ himself is our FIRST gift from GOD as pertains to eternal life.
You are correct, Jesus is a gift to us for “he laid down his life” for us to be a mediator and restore our relationship back to the Father and to give us eternal life.
However the “gift of God” Jesus mentions in Jn 4:10 is the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is speaking prophetically to her of the ”source” of Eternal life, which is ”Living Water”, The Holy Spirit which will be given when he is Glorified.
All through the scriptures water is a type of the Spirit. In the natural, water is the source of all natural life.
Jn 7:
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)Cubes, look closely the gift he is Speaking of is not the offering of his Body on the cross to give her eternal life.
Jn 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the “gift of God”, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.The “Gift” in verse 4 is the Holy Spirit. Give me to drink.
Compare with…
I Cor. 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Jesus said to the Samaritan woman…
Jn 4:10
If thou knewest the “gift of God”, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.Jesus says to any man…
Jn 7:37
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.Again Jesus is the living water! The Lord is the Spirit!
Rev 22:1
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.You say…
Quote Everlasting life is a conditional gift in that it is first dependent upon our acceptance of the primary/first GIFT, who is Christ Jesus.
“Primary first gift”, where is this written?Jesus is “Eternal life”! You cant have Jesus in you without having Eternal life. And you cant have Eternal life without having Jesus in you!
1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)Jn 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though
he were dead, yet shall he live:Jn 1:4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.You say…
Quote We are commanded to BELIEVE that GOD sent his son to save the world and that Jesus is that son. Amen. God was manifest in the flesh, the Word/God, Jesus the Son of God, Emanuel God with us, the Lord from heaven. The Mighty God! And many more appalations.
You say…
Quote So when Jesus says to the Samaritan woman in John 4:10f,
“If thou knewest the gift of GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water,” he is in NO WAY implying that he is GOD.So is your opinion. Jn 4 gives more evidence of the Deity of Jesus than not. Simply because he says..
“ If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.Only God could claim that if you “ask him” he would give you living water.
Jesus claims that he will send the Spirit. Yet he says the Father will send the Spirit.
Jesus didn’t speak this just because the Father gives him authority. He speaks this because *he is the Life.*
When you lead someone to Christ do you give them the Spirit?
(You may lay hands on them, but it is Christ that gives them his Spirit!)Do they pray to you?
How can someone pray to Jesus to come into their heart if he is not God?
Is it not Jesus own Spirit that indwells them?
Would it not be “Idolatry” for any Monotheistic Jew to pray to any being but God?
Jn 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?You say…
Quote He is referring to scriptures like John 3:16, confirming that he is that Son whom God sent, the Messiah, and that if the woman would believe and ask, she shall receive the everlasting life promised by GOD (meaning that GOD is none other than the FATHER), to those who believe in his Son, WHO it was that spoke with her, the Messiah! How do you know he is referring to scriptures like John 3:16? Is it written here. Did he speak those scriptures?
He is referring to the ”Gift of the Holy Spirit”, “the living water” And yes she would receive Everlasting life if she drinks of the living water.
And yes God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
You say…
Quote If anything, Jesus in this wonderful passage seizes another opportunity to explicitly show that he is not GOD. He even tells the woman, “I am he,” meaning Messiah. Which is so much more direct a statement than the straws that Trinitarians grasp at when they insist on the I AMs of Christ as referring to the f
amous exodus verse.There is no straws, Cubes.
Those who teach against Jesus being the Lord from heaven are building straw mans.
Could you tell me how these passages prove “explicitly” that Jesus is not the Word/God made flesh, the Lord from heaven.
Could you show me how Jesus being the Messiah does not mean he is God in the flesh.
You say…
Quote You say…
vs 14: Jesus has authority to say this because 1. The Father has given him such authority, putting all things under his feet excepting the Father himself as he himself shall submit to GOD at the end. 1 Cor 15:27f
2. The Father has given him to have life in himself.
3. He is the Second Adam and has been given such authority that many should be receive eternal life through thim.Response…
1. Then why didn’t Jesus say…” But whosoever drinketh of the water that (the Father) shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that (the Father) shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Answer…
Because the Father and the Son are One. The living water proceeds from the Father and the Son.2. Jesus is Eternal life. He has always been with the Father. The scripture you are referring to is his natural life as a man. There is no scripture that says that Jesus had a beginning!
Jn 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Jesus was not a Son untill he was born)
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.The context is the life and ressurection of men. Compare with…
Jn10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.3. Yes he is the second Adam, the Lord from heaven. And he will give Eternal life to as many as the Father shall GIVE HIM.
Jn 6:
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.Jn 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.Jn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.Who but God could hold every man in his hand?
Who but God can give Eternal life?
Who but God can raise every man from the grave from Adam until the end?
Who but God can judge every man by every thought that he has ever had?
Who but God can be all over the world dwelling among 2 or 3 gathered in his name.
Who but God can hear the prayers of all of mankind and say to them…
Matt 11:
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.No mere man or anointed prophet can make these claims.
You say…
Quote The Spirit referred to cannot be other than the Father only, because again, he repeats, SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! in both verses, and directly confirms that the subject of the two verses is the same: THE FATHER who is the only true GOD and IS SPIRIT. Please believe his testimony! Jesus is the “Truth”. Jn 14:6
Yet Jesus says…
Jn 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and [they] are life.Yes God is a Spirit. And we call his Spirit, Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Him, His Spirit, and the Spirit, all uniquelly and wonderfully and gloriously as One Spirit.
Read Rom 8:9-14 again.
Jesus is the true God!
1Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Please believe his testimony. John knew him better than any!
You say…
Quote
Jhn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
in response to the woman's statement in vs. 25.Jesus here makes a clear difference between the Father – GOD – and himself. The Father is GOD. He Jesus on the hand is the Messiah and Son of GOD. The woman LEFT her waterpot (I can imagine her excitement!). When She got back to the men, this is what she said: “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
She didn’t get to drink of the Spirit of truth did she?
Still nothing here that disproves the Messiah as God in the flesh.
You say…
Quote No one in the scriptures would tell you that Messiah is GOD.
Maybe you should speak to John and Thomas and Paul and Peter and Jude.I think you now the scriptures. Or maybe not.
You say…
Quote Qualify John 3:31 with 1 Cor 15:27f Jn 3:
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.[/I\1 Cor 15:
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.What’s to qualify?
The Father has given all things to the Son. When all things have been subdued to the Son, then the Son shall be subject to the Father. There is no dis-harmony i
n the Godhead.You say…
Quote I apologise for the long post but it's as compact as I could deal w/ John 4 and show that Jesus didn't intend himself to be perceived by the woman or any of as as GOD, but rather as the awesome individual Son of the Most High GOD. Remember Cubes he is the Word/God, the Lord from Heaven!
Hi W,
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.So is God a mortal man?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,19:33) Hi W,
Do you really think that the God Who does not change and cannot die, in being able to do all things, would include in those abilitites that of changing his own nature to that of a puny mortal man and dying? Wake up! He sent His son!
NHNo. But you do!
Thats what you think the Word/God did when he emptied himself and was born a man, and now he is just a man like you and I. You see him as another anointed Prophet or maybe a super Prophet.
Have you considered that Jesus is no longer in the flesh like you and I?
He has been Glorified! His body and blood is the Body and blood of God!
I dont see him like you do NH. For he is high and lifted up and his Glory fills the Temple. Sound familliar!
Stop trying to reduce Jesus to your own understanding!
He is both God and man! He is the Lord from Heaven!
Let the Spirit of Jesus show you what “Monogenes Son of God” really means!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,22:05) Hi W,
1 Corinthians 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.So is God a mortal man?
NHWhy do you ask me?
You wont believe me if I tell you?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,22:16) Hi W,
Thje glorious monogenes son is now in heaven AT THE RIGHT HAND of his father and GOD.
NH Yes the Word that was with God and is God!Hi w,
You say“Yes there was a time when he didnt have all power.”
So you say almighty God was not actually almighty for that time?
There was a time when God lacked full power?Actually trinity falls down here at it is easier if you believe God had a SON WHOM HE SENT.
And when the Son was anointed with power from the Spirit of Almighty God he did the works of God.Luke 22:69
But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.”NOTE: From now on.
So this verse alone shows us that he is not God now. Rather he is seated at his right hand.
That verse takes care of the present and future.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,22:58) Hi w,
You say“Yes there was a time when he didnt have all power.”
So you say almighty God was not actually almighty for that time?
There was a time when God lacked full power?Actually trinity falls down here at it is easier if you believe God had a SON WHOM HE SENT.
And when the Son was anointed with power from the Spirit of Almighty God he did the works of God.
NHSo God had a Son that was born a son?
Ludicrous! Show me a scripture that says Jesus was a Son before his incarnation and I will believe you. Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 09 2007,18:57) Ludicrous! Show me a scripture that says Jesus was a Son before his incarnation and I will believe you.
I hear this one all the time.It makes no difference as far as the Trinity doctrine goes does it? Even if Christ become a son 2000 or so years ago, it doesn't in any way prove a Trinity.
Yeshua was the Word and he is still the Word of God and he is the son of God.
It appears to me at least, that Trinitarians here are hacking at this in order to try and make a crack appear perhaps to give them something to exploit so that the whole “for us there is one God the Father” will eventually fall apart.
It's kind of funny but in truth it will never fall apart because it is written that for us, “there is one God the Father” and nothing but proving it to be a mistranslation or addition to the text will change that fact.
Yeshua is at the right hand of God, now and forever.
Amen!
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