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Hi W,
So when you look at the sky you see Orion and Pleides, both in scripture, and glorious order and harmony and beauty.
But when you look at a scripture about God and His son you instead see just one being. So odd.Hi w,
You say
“With you though you and your Father are two beings….The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God not three beings. Divinely and uniquelly and wonderfully together as One.”
So what point are you making?We are like our fathers.
Two beings
God is like His son
One being.Crazy stuff.
Hi w,
Can we follow him
“The God/man Jesus.”
?
None of us are god\men“Not with God because God is a Spirit and we know there is One Spirit.”
We have spirits and Jesus did too.
Angels are spirits tooHeb 1
13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
When will you find the simple truth or are you already lost in man made confusion?
You will not find it sitting in the lap of the theologians.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 08 2007,00:00) One question though. You said “Is the Father greater than Jesus? Yes, but only in rank and authority.”
Does that mean that you think that they are co-equal in power?
Hi Tim,
I won't answer for WJ, but I'll have some thoughts to share, if that's okay.I think the resurrected Yeshua is equal in power. He was given “ALL power/authority”
Matthew 28:18
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All (Gr. pas) power (Gr. exousia) is given unto me in heaven and in earthpas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: – all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: – authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.How much “power” was He given? – the entirety of it.
Whom was He given power over? – Earth and Heaven.
Could it legitimately argued that there was any power that the Father has that the Son doesn't? – Not by my reckoning, it would not then be “all” power.
There statements of Yeshua's unqualified ownership of “all things” are quite ubiquitous in NT scripture.
Luke 10:22
22″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”John 16:15
15″All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.John 17:10
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.What's more the NT also demonstrates the practical outworking of this unlimited “power”:
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.Colossians 1:17
And he [Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist [Gr. sunistao¯ sunistano¯ suniste¯mi = endure].Hebrews 1:1-3
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…By whose “miraculous power” does the entire created order endure? – Yeshua's.
Not only did he create “all things” (John 1:3, Col 1:16) but he continues to sustain “all things” by the word of His power.
That's power!
Quote Wasn't Jesus the first of creation? Which I thought meant that God created Jesus first and then
created everything else through Jesus.
Colossians 1:15
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creationIif you look at the OT and NT usage of the word “firstborn” it becomes increasingly obvious that it often denotes something other than procreation.
For example, Ps 89.27 speaking of King David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse says God will make him his firstborn:
Psalms 89:27
“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.”God calls Israel his firstborn:
Exodus 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”All Christians are called God’s firstborn:
Hebrews 12:23
”to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,It's also notable that Isaac was firstborn in Abraham's family (Heb 11:17-19; Gal 3:29; 4:28-31), athough Ishmael (by Hagar) was in reality born first.
Also, remember that Yeshua is described as being the “firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18). Obviously this is not a reference to death being Yeshua's procreator, but you would have to read it that way if “firstborn” was taken to mean 'procreation'.
The term “first born” (Gr. prōtotokos) is frequently used to signify priority in importance or rank. This thought is more in keeping with the context of the Colossians passage:
Colossians 1:15-17
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.In the next verse we are told that by Him (Yeshua) “all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth”. It's another unqualified statement that would blatantly contradict the previous verse if Paul's diadactic intention was to convey that Yeshua was God's first act of creation. He cannot logically be the Creator of “all things” and a created thing at the same time. But if you read prōtotokos to denote pre-eminence over creation, then it harmonises perfectly with the next verse as well as the one after (v17) which speaks of His unmistakable authority (“He is before all things”) and power over (“in Him all things hold together”) all creation.
Anyway, I'm sure WJ can add much to this…..
Blessings
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,03:33) What's more the NT also demonstrates the practical outworking of this unlimited “power”: Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
So this scripture you pointed out shows us clearly that Christ has a body. And we both no full well that Christ is the image of the INVISIBLE God. Therefore how can Christ be God if God is invisible.1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; ….1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.1 Timothy 6:15-16
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.John 5:37
And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.Pretty straight forward and clear isn't it.
How can we deny the scriptures that say no one but the son can see God?
And we all know that the son is visible. The visible image of the invisible God.
Blessings.
It's interesting that no one has seen the Father (John 6:46) nor heard His voice (John 5:37). I wonder then who these passages refer to:-
Genesis 3:8-11
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden 9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?Genesis 17:1
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.Genesis 18:1,8,13,17,26
1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day…..13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?…..8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat……..17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do…..26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [God] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “Acts 7:2
“And he [Stephen] said, “Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran . . . “Care to comment?
First off the bat Is 1:18, it is not I who says that no one can see God, it is scripture.
Second off the bat, what people saw must have been a messenger of God such as an angel, perhaps even Yeshua.
Third off the bat, it is even written that Moses saw an angel and yet is it also written that he saw God.
Exodus 3:2
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.Acts 7:35
“This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.All we can see is God's glory whether that is unapproachable light or a messenger, but we cannot actually see his form.
The last verse I believe contains the answer. It was God talking to Moses BUT through an angel/messenger.
I guess that is a home run.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:04) All we can see is God's glory, but we cannot actually see his form.
Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [God] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and he beholds the form of the LORD . . . “Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:04) I guess that is a home run.
He he…..Yeah right. You haven't even come close to explaining the texts I cited.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,04:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:04) I guess that is a home run.
He he…..Yeah right. You haven't even come close to explaining the verse I cited.
Sorry but you carelessly threw away 6 scriptures. The ones I quoted. My explanation included yours but your explanation discarded 6 scriptures at the click of a finger.Those scriptures you discard are as follows:
1 John 4:12, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:15-16, John 6:46, John 1:18, John 5:37Maybe you can't see it, but I am sure anybody with eyes can.
Good and notice that it calls him God and that no one has seen God. In other verses it says the Father.
Of course this is what we have been saying all along.
It also says that God spoke to Moses but THROUGH an angle/messenger.
If you understand this then scripture isn't contradicting itself. If you say that Moses saw God (not though his messenger) then you have to a conflict in scripture.
Not a conflict with me, but scripture.
Read the texts I posted again and have a think about it. Question yourself whether what you have written adequately explains the information in light of the John 5:37 and 6:46 revelations…..
*yawn*
I'm going to bed.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,04:08) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 08 2007,09:04) I guess that is a home run.
He he…..Yeah right. You haven't even come close to explaining the texts I cited.
Wow, do you possess some secret knowledge that I am unaware of?Are you really that deep?
Come on. Be humble. Relate to people. Jump off your high horse.
If you are that much better than myself, Nick, and others, then why do you even bother with us?
No one can see God and no one has seen God and Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
That is what scripture says.
If you can go against scripture with another understanding then what can I say? Even false religions do that. Clever perhaps, but true, no way.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 09 2007,04:23) Read the texts I posted again and have a think about it. Question yourself whether what you have written adequately explains the information in light of the John 5:37 and 6:46 revelations….. *yawn*
I'm going to bed.
I read them again.It doesn't change the fact that no one can see God and that Yeshua is God's image.
In fact when you understand that, there is no conflict whatsoever.
When you deny it, you have contradiction and confusion.
And when you say there is One God the Father, Son, Spirit, you add immensely to that confusion.
In truth, there is one God the Father.
Yeshua is the image of the invisible God.
Yeshua is the son of God.
Yeshua is the Word of God.The Father is God whom Yeshua is the son of and the image of.
It is written and that is good enough for me. Obviously you need to add to scripture a doctrine that came later on and before Paul warned us such doctrines would come.
Thanks Is 1:18.
I agree with you 100% that Jesus now has all of the power of God.
But He did not give it to himself. He was given that power by His Father
God. The one who gives the power, has to have more power than the one whom
it is given. So Father God is still greater in power than the son.
The son has to give everything back to the Father in the end.So the whole idea of co-equal in power was what turned me against the idea
of a trinity to begin with. Plus a whole bunch of things that point to the fact that the Holy Spirit
is actually the spirit of God, not another being.Thank you for your reply.
Tim
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 08 2007,08:33) Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 08 2007,00:00) One question though. You said “Is the Father greater than Jesus? Yes, but only in rank and authority.”
Does that mean that you think that they are co-equal in power?
Hi Tim,
I won't answer for WJ, but I'll have some thoughts to share, if that's okay.I think the resurrected Yeshua is equal in power. He was given “ALL power/authority”
Matthew 28:18
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All (Gr. pas) power (Gr. exousia) is given unto me in heaven and in earthpas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: – all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.exousia
ex-oo-see'-ah
From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: – authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.How much “power” was He given? – the entirety of it.
Whom was He given power over? – Earth and Heaven.
Could it legitimately argued that there was any power that the Father has that the Son doesn't? – Not by my reckoning, it would not then be “all” power.
There statements of Yeshua's unqualified ownership of “all things” are quite ubiquitous in NT scripture.
Luke 10:22
22″All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”John 16:15
15″All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.John 17:10
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.What's more the NT also demonstrates the practical outworking of this unlimited “power”:
Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.Colossians 1:17
And he [Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist [Gr. sunistao¯ sunistano¯ suniste¯mi = endure].Hebrews 1:1-3
God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power…By whose “miraculous power” does the entire created order endure? – Yeshua's.
Not only did he create “all things” (John 1:3, Col 1:16) but he continues to sustain “all things” by the word of His power.
That's power!
Quote Wasn't Jesus the first of creation? Which I thought meant that God created Jesus first and then
created everything else through Jesus.
Colossians 1:15
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creationIif you look at the OT and NT usage of the word “firstborn” it becomes increasingly obvious that it often denotes something other than procreation.
For example, Ps 89.27 speaking of King David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse says God will make him his firstborn:
Psalms 89:27
“I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.”God calls Israel his firstborn:
Exodus 4:22
“Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, “Israel is My son, My firstborn.”All Christians are called God’s firstborn:
Hebrews 12:23
”to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,It's also notable that Isaac was firstborn in Abraham's family (Heb 11:17-19; Gal 3:29; 4:28-31), athough Ishmael (by Hagar) was in reality born first.
Also, remember that Yeshua is described as being the “firstborn from the dead” (Col 1:18). Obviously this is not a reference to death being Yeshua's procreator, but you would have to read it that way if “firstborn” was taken to mean 'procreation'.
The term “first born” (Gr. prōtotokos) is frequently used to signify priority in importance or rank. This thought is more in keeping with the context of the Colossians passage:
Colossians 1:15-17
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.In the next verse we are told that by Him (Yeshua) “all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth”. It's another unqualified statement that would blatantly contradict the previous verse if Paul's diadactic intention was to convey that Yeshua was God's first act of creation. He cannot logically be the Creator of “all things” and a created thing at the same time. But if you read prōtotokos to denote pre-eminence over creation, then it harmonises perfectly with the next verse as well as the one after (v17) which speaks of His unmistakable authority (“He is before all things”) and power over (“in Him all things hold together”) all creation.
Anyway, I'm sure WJ can add much to this…..
Blessings
Hi Is 1:18Thanks for answering!
I coudnt have said it better myself!
I hope you answer t8!
TimothyVI
You say…
Quote Thanks Is 1:18.
I agree with you 100% that Jesus now has all of the power of God.
But He did not give it to himself. He was given that power by His Father
God. The one who gives the power, has to have more power than the one whom
it is given. So Father God is still greater in power than the son.
The son has to give everything back to the Father in the end.
This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the
Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?Imagine any created being having “All Power” that would make one equal to God would it not?
Think about it untill your head explodes.
Its like thinking about infinity and the end of the heavens and whats on the other side, and then whats on the other side of that.
Yet Jesus is bigger than all of that for he fills it all.
Since we know that there is no being in the universe that is equal to God, then this would mean that Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit.
You see people talk about Jesus being the “Image of God” like a reflection in a dead mirror. Well if Jesus is not equal to God then how could he be the “express Image of God”?
You see my friend even the simplist of minds knows that the creator of all things is God!
Is 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Gen 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jesus, the Lord from heaven!
Stricking resemblance huh?
Hi W,
You say.
“This makes no sense. If the Father Gave him “ALL” Power then how can the Father have “more” Power, that would mean that he didnt give him all Power! Would it not?”So if the Father gave Christ all power some things are obvious.
God, the Father, is the ultimate source of all power.
The Son is not the source of power but must be given it.
If the Son was given all power then there was a time when he did not have all power.
So the Son is not the same as the Father but he is reliant on the Father for power.
If the Son did not have all power then he was not the Almighty God of scripture.
Like us and though derived directly from God he is relatively powerless in his own right.
Any equality in function that he has is because he has been given it and not of his nature.
So his nature is not the same as that of almighty God who never needs to be given anything.
Like us he could do all things because of Who strengthened him.
We can follow him.
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