Every Knee Shall Bow And Confess to God&#33;

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 05 2007,02:50)

Cubes

I will get to your post. As you can see that they are getting long.

As they build I trust that we will do the best to keep them as short as poosible, which is difficult for me when I like to respond to every statement.

But I would like to respond to the end of one post where you said…

Quote

*PS: by Trinitarian, I typically mean defenders of the Trinity Doctrine, not necessarily the average believer and seeker after God.

I am not sure what you mean by average believer and seeker of God.

How do you know what is average?

If the inference is that most Trinitarians are not believers and seekers of God.

Then I think that is a really broad statement to make against millions of Christians that believe that Jesus is the Son of God and their Savior. After all that is what it means to be be saved and accepted among the brethren is it not?

Hi WJ…

Put another way, on an AVERAGE Sunday, how many people attend Trinitarian churches? And how many would you say, of the number in that ball park, have the opportuntiy and/or interest (for whatever reason) to engage in discussions like these? Where are the forums designated in most churches to promote these sorts of discussions whereby doctrines and “spirits” may be tested as we are encouraged to do in scripture?

March 6, 2007 at 5:51 pm#43865

Participant

Hi WJ,

In response to this aspect of your post, I share the following, based primarily on Romans 8, though not exclusively.

You said:

Quote

We could get into a lot of doctrinal issues here with Baptism. But the focus of these verses I think is the Spirit

Who or what is the Spirit? Lets look at some scriptures.

Jn 4:
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Interesting. “If thou knewest who it is that saith to thee.”

Jesus the Lord from heaven says he would give her living water or “the gift of God”

Yes. Agreed given what I already posted before this to qualify my response. Jesus can offer the Samaritan woman living water because he is GOD's own only begotten Son and Messiah; GOD has given him to have life in himself, and he has received authority to be able to impart that life to whomsover he wishes, according to the will of GOD [FATHER]..

Quote

Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Is this a contradiction? Is Jesus the Father? No.
Only God could give the Holy Spirit. Not to mention Jesus is the Baptiser of the Spirit.

Yes and no. ONLY GOD could give the Holy Spirit and/or anyone authorized by GOD to do so.
GOD, if you would remember Jesus saying, has given all authority to Christ excepting the Father.
When the scriptures refer to the True GOD, they almost always refer to the Father ONLY. Why don't you test it yourself and find out?

The apostles through the authority given them, could lay hands on others at times in Jesus name, and GOD honored their request and sent the holy spirit baptism.

John the Baptist baptised with water, he was of GOD and had authority from GOD to do so, but was himself not GOD or even the Christ. Jesus is the Baptiser with Spirit, he is of GOD and has authority from GOD to do so, but is himself NOT GOD but the CHRIST of GOD. Or the Anointed of GOD. GOD is not anointed… he is the source of all anointing. He anoints those who serve him to do his work. John the Baptist would tell you that and so would Jesus (Is 61:1f, Luke 4:17f).

Quote

Compare…

Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Then Jesus says…

Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in spirit and in truth.

So heres what we know…

1.There is One body

2. Theres is One head of that body.

3. Theres is One Spirit that joins the body and the head.

4. There is the Holy Spirit which the Father and Son will send.

5. God is a Spirit. So the One Spirit is the Spirit of God!

6. The Spirit Proceeds From the Father and Jesus.

I hope you can see in the scriptures you quoted that the origin and source of the Spirit is from The Father. Jesus as the Son and Messiah has received authority to advocate for us and given the necessary powers and supply needed from the HIGHEST to do that. Simple. He said to his disciples and ultimately to us, “As my Father sent me, I send you…” He is sealed with the holy spirit as his disciples came to be sealed and hopefully us while we await his appearing.

1. Agreed
2. Agreed, but understand that GOD rules over the head and body altogether. By this I mean the Father exclusively, unless stated otherwise.
3. Yes. Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Jhn 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
4. Yes and no. If you are implying that the origin of the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son then you are wrong. If you are saying that the son has authority to ask the Father to send his holy spirit, or to impart the life given him to others, you are right. If you lose sight of the difference you've lost sight of who the True GOD is here, in essence. It matters, for if it did not, the scriptures would not make the difference between GOD and Christ, between GOD and every one else, between Christ and every one else, as often as it does at just about every opportunity, in as much as Christ Jesus is exalted and without a doubt, awesome and is not called Lord for nothing.
5. Yes. And by his spirit, he begat his Son and raised him from the dead and adopts/begets us as children of GOD through his Son. Given what you've said before, you perhaps allude to a Trinity or Binity here. I see only the Father as FOREMOST and the son as a result of the Father being God being subject to GOD (1 Cor 15:27). If that doesn't apply here, then I know not where it should apply.
6. No. The Spirit proceeds from the Father in origin. Period.

Quote

Rev 22:1
1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

I hope to continue with the rest.

March 6, 2007 at 6:42 pm#43867

Participant

WJ (continued)!

Quote

Paul explains it very well.

Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God (Theos) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, (Christos) he is none of his.
10 And if Christ(Christos) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

So we have the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Him, His Spirit, and the Spirit, all uniquelly and wonderfully and gloriously as One Spirit.

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord (kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Jesus the Lord from heaven, is the Spirit!

Compare..

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

There will be those who will try to spritualise or esplain his words away. I am a literalist and take the scriptures literally until I find good reason not to.

Paul a strict Monothiest, being a Hebrew of the Hebrews Says that the Son of God, Jesus lives in us by his Spirit, calling the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.

Jesus fills his body by his Spirit which is the Spirit of God.

However the Father who is a Spirit fills his Temple with his Spirit.

The Holy Spirit (Comforter) fills the believer proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One Spirit and One God!

1. GOD gave Christ to have the spirit of life [ETERNAL LIFE] in himself. Thus the origin of that life is found in GOD.
2. This life is known as the SPIRIT OF CHRIST but it also can be applied to the mind of Christ and is part and parcel of the same thing.
3. Messiah has authority to give this life to as many as believe on him as the Son of GOD, one sent by GOD in the unique office as Messiah , according to the Father's will.
4. This life is in direct contrast to Genesis 3 and the life of the First ADAM and can be seen on a parallel track (when speaking about the flesh, sin and death), heading in an opposite direction away from GOD. We see Jesus as the Second ADAM here and the life that comes from him and he leads us to GOD and the living fountains.
5. The First Adam, a living soul as opposed to Jesus, the quickening spirit, was our father too according to the earthly natural life. GOD gave him authority and opportunity to procreate after his own kind. By him we received our natural life – although again, the source of that life is from GOD – and unfortunately, he also passed on death to us.

Adam too was a son of GOD, but of the earthly kind.

Paul in Romans 8, I believe is telling us to let go of the life of the First Adam and take hold of the life that comes through the second ADAM. Both sources of these lives are from GOD but the heavenly is more needful and excellent. Not to mention the earthly became corrupt when sin entered in.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Isa 43:27 Thy FIRST father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.

Luk 3:38 Which was [the son] of Enos, which was [the son] of Seth, which was [the son] of Adam, which was [the son] of God.

March 6, 2007 at 7:37 pm#43869

Participant

Hi WJ,

1. Regarding the rest of your post, I want to respond briefly, the verse in Heb 1:10 to which you refer is difficult to understand even in the Psalms, but taking it at face value, I'd still have to qualify what is said there with the scriptures that credit the Father as creator. John and Paul say that the creation came about through Christ and so does revelation and all the Psalms with exception (to my knowledge) of the Psalm quoted in Heb 1:10 (Ps 102 I believe). We can get back to that at another time and deal with that in depth.

2. To my understanding, it was GOD they referenced, when the scripture says, “To which of the angels did HE say….” The HE is speaking of the Father for it was the Father who said, “you are my son, today I have begotten you.”

3. Regarding the when Jesus became a son, I do not know what day GOD meant by “Today I have begotten you.” It might have been in heaven and it might have been about the time the Angel Gabriel spoke with Mary. All I know is that, Jesus' identity as the son of GOD, eclipses whatever else he might have been before. So much the case that you would be had pressed to find two scriptures to rub together to interpret John 1. Let's face it.:D “In the beginning was the WORD…”
Which other scriptures attest to this?

All that we know is that in the beginning GOD… Gen 1:1
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Gen 1:2
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:3

GOD spoke but I don't see anything about WORD here. I see GOD and I see Spirit of GOD, and I am told that GOD is the Father and that he is Spirit. WORD, I don't see.
So perhaps we need to go back and see whether by WORD, John meant the Spirit of GOD.

And if The Spirit of GOD is Jesus here (John 1:1) then that might make more sense to me actually, and yet not as a binity or Trinity, because one thing the Bible says for sure is that GOD is GOD. The spirit is his spirit and proceeds from him and is of him and I've often envisioned it as part and parcel of him such as an arm is to a person, and yet, not the whole of him because he is much more bigger and would have dominion over his own arm.

Something to mull over.

March 6, 2007 at 8:42 pm#43882

Participant

Hi cubes you are a blessing

We are all put here first as children and inheritors of the promise made to the fathers.

To overcome and sit with him on his throne
Being that for us to be sent from God we shall join in the work of the kingdom
Which is….

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Some standing two thousand years ago shall not see death…

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

This kingdom shall descend down as the New Jerusalem….

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Some shall not taste of death till they see the kingdom come.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

We think of this as an event, but Christ has said only some shall see before they taste of death?
This is the power of the spirit working in each individual person.

This is the throne of David that shall build up to many generations…
Psa 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
Psa 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

Davids throne God has established forever but who shall understand
And who shall see a throne in appear that is contrary to what has been taught

Psa 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
Psa 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
Psa 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

I am only concerned with the truth, however hard it is to except, knowing nothing will stand against it, the power will be great and perfect and the throne shall be established on earth and Gods people will have him dwelling amongst them in faith.

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Charity

March 6, 2007 at 8:54 pm#43884

Participant

Hi charity,
“We are all put here first as children and inheritors of the promise made to the fathers.”

None is now known of men as His sons unless they are reborn from above.
The rest remain under the wrath of God.
The firstborn Jewish man who fulfilled the Law is now the source of the inheritance for those in him relying on his works and his righteousness having only rags of their own.

March 6, 2007 at 11:43 pm#43906

Participant

Hi Nick

The kingdom unseen the City descending down

Anything that is unrighteous may not enter
They shall taste of death before they see the kingdom of God
The kingdom is there and some have seen before they taste of death
On the outside are the unrighteous
The wicked are still not consumed for they are outside the gates
But they believe not by faith that it is has come, and wait for a event of the kingdom coming, he has not yet appeared for these that do not believe, they seek another coming in a body;

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

I am sincerely seeking knowledge to enter the kingdom before tasting of death;

Also the throne of David that is given to Christ by God
Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Who established himself on the throne in between David and Christ and established it under Law not grace, as good scribes of Moses who put Christ to death?

True knowledge of the kingdom should surely help in the building?
How can you build a kingdom that you don't fully understand existed?
a throne that existed and Christ to established for ever
It must be clear in your own mind first the will of God on earth not our will of our own knowledge
How can you rebuild the wastes and ruins of many generations with Christ?
Many have started BUILDING DENOMINATIONS of thought patterns concerning a kingdom; splitting up Gods children numbering Israel for themselves?
For willfulness just to be seen as right and pride that will not fall and be found wrong?
Until we are subdued in our own will? And address the fathers and a prophet who were given the knowledge by the will of God
And all that we are reported from the apostles is that of the prophets before nothing new;
why should men amagin new things out of the apostles words instead of going back to confirm what they are referring forth from the past prophecy’s in obedience to the will of God.

Christ cannot appear for us in awakening to truth in renewing our minds.

God bless

March 7, 2007 at 12:21 am#43908

Participant

Hi Charity, Thanks for your post. Hope to get back to you soon.

March 7, 2007 at 12:23 am#43909

Participant

Another day?
Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in “David”, There remaineth therefore a rest to the people
For “if Jesus” had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in “David”, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

Hbr 4:8 For “if Jesus” had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.
Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

March 7, 2007 at 12:31 am#43910

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 07 2007,00:21)

Hi Charity, Thanks for your post. Hope to get back to you soon.

Thanks cubes anytime

God bless

March 7, 2007 at 6:58 am#43931

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Mar. 02 2007,03:22)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2007,21:05)

There should be no exceptions in the scriptures. Or you have a weak foundation to be sure.

100s of Scholars, Greek and Hebrew experts have brought us the scriptures.

True there may be different interpretations of the scriptures.

But NH what if I said that 1 Cor. 8:6 should be thrown out because it seems to support the Arian theololgy?

I am quite sure that the few exceptions you are talking about support the trinitarian view like Jn 1:1.

Jn 1:1 is enough for me. All the experts agree that John was not a liar.

Maybe you should write you own Bible like the JWs. Then you can change what you want to fit your doctrine.

So you have chosen to build your faith on “Questionable scriptures”.

Please show me which scriptures we should throw out of the Cannon NH.

What credentials do you have to question the 100s of experts?

John 1:1 doesn't teach a Trinity and if that is the foundation of your doctrine, then I can assure you that your doctrine is sunk. The Book of John is all about proving that Jesus is the Christ and son of God. That is the reason for this book.

You say that Nick should write his own bible, but you cannot see because of the log in your eye. It seems obvious that you should write a Trinity Bible then that way you could eliminate difficult verses that show the Trinity doctrine to be sham.

Here are the first 100 verses you could change or delete:

You say…

Quote

John 1:1 doesn't teach a Trinity and if that is the foundation of your doctrine, then I can assure you that your doctrine is sunk.

First of all I assure you my friend that Trinitarianism is not sunk. It has been around longer than the Arian doctrine. In fact it has been around longer than Unitarianism, Oneness, Universalism, Modalism, Bitheism, Henotheism, Polytheism (which by the way means “the belief *in* or *of* more than one God”), or any other false religion in the world.

Because In the beginning before anything was made that was made, there was the Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit which was and is God.

Since you have no scriptural evidence that Jesus was a “Son” before his incarnation.

Then it leaves you with a huge question of “Who was the Word?” who was with God in the beginning?

Of course as in your writings you would say that he was the wisdom of God according to Proverbs 8, and was spoken into existence and then “begotten” by God because he was the “firstborn” of the creation. This makes no sense because if Jesus was the “Wisdom of God” spoken of in Prov 8 then it would imply that God had no “wisdom” before the Word. Not to mention it would imply that Jesus had a beginning, of which there is not a shred of evidence in the scriptures to show such non-sense.

Also if the wisdom in Proverbs 8 was the Logos then he must also have been female.

The context in chapters 1 and 7 and 8 of the Proverbs shows all the major translators translated wisdom with a female gender.

Prov 1:20,21
21 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
22 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,

Prov 7:4
Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:

Prov 8:
1 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?
2 She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.
3 She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Even Jesus speaks of wisdom as female in gender…

Lk 7:35
But wisdom is proved right by all her children.”

Is Jesus speaking of an actual person? Is he speaking of himself? Absolutely not. Ludicrous.

Definition of Wisdom

Heb. “chokmah”, which means;
1) wisdom
a) skill (in war)
b) wisdom (in administration)
c) shrewdness, wisdom
d) wisdom, prudence (in religious affairs)
e) wisdom (ethical and religious)

Gr. Sophia, which means;
wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters

I find it amazing that you try to personify wisdom to be the Logos who created all things “by his wisdom” and upholds all things by the word of his power…

Yet you would have many to believe in this interpretation while at the same time denying to give honor to the Holy Spirit of God as a person, “who is the Lord”!

I also find it amazing that you want to ascribe chapter 8 of Proverbs to Jesus which is grey at best and yet reject obvious unquestionable prophetic scriptures which show Jesus is YHWY in the flesh, the Lord from heaven.

Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD (YHWH) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (YHWH) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (YHWH), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD (YHWH), and his name ONE.

The above is none other than Jesus when he comes with his Holy Angels in the Glory of his Father!

The Father with Jesus the Lord from heaven, is the possessor of all wisdom, and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden in Christ.

Therefore Jesus who is the ‘Truth” (Jn 14:6), is made unto us *wisdom*.

1 Cor 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Eph 1:8
Wherein he hath abounded toward
us in all wisdom and prudence;

Col 2:
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

So to be sure all wisdom and honor and glory be unto him…

Rev 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Jesus being “Truth” and the Word/God and possessing ‘All Wisdom”, and being worshipped as God, is the True God!

1 Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 Tim 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Now since you still want to align yourelf with the agnostics of the true interpretation of John 1:1 and say that the word was “divine” and yet out of the same mouth say “that it is not incorrect to say that the Word “was” God”, then please show us t8 what “the Word who was Divine or God” emptied himself of?
You cant have it two ways, he either ceased to be God when he took on a body and was born the Son of God or he didn’t.

If emptying himself means that he looses his Identity and ceases to be something other than what he was and you say “the Word was divine”, then again he is no longer divine.

If you say the “Word was a god”, and he “emptied himself and became something other than being “a god” then his Identity would also be lost..

Why not just believe the scriptures!

Jesus the Lord from heaven took on human form, a Body, and being found in appearance as a man he was obedient to the Father unto the death of the cross.

You say…

Quote

The Book of John is all about proving that Jesus is the Christ and son of God. That is the reason for this book.

True. But who is this Son of God and what did the term mean to a Monotheistic Jew?

The Gospel of John uses the term “Son of God”, 9 times. Mathew uses the term 8, and Mark 3, and Luke 6, Acts 2 times and the rest of the New testament just 16 times.

Thats a Grand total of 44 times.

Lets see what the writer John says in its context…

Jn 20:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Just 4 verses up John writes about one of the most serious acts against God that a Monothiestic Jew could have committed. Idolatry!

Yet without any explanation or rebuke, Jesus blesses him and John continues to affirm that Jesus is the Son of God.

I am sure, without a doubt that John knew what it meant to call Jesus. The Son Of God

For John starts his book with…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

God in the flesh, Son of God, Emmanuel, God with us!!!

You say…

Quote

I already have a Trinitarian Bible. I don’t need to go against the translators or ignore or miss-interpret or take out or add to the scriptures. The Trinitarian view is found in all of the manuscripts and shown in all of the translations. John 1:1 as well as many other scriptures is proof of that.

And as far as the 100 scriptures I read them and say Amen.

This is what they show.

The Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God, the Lord from heaven.

There is no poof in those scriptures that God and Jesus and the Spirit is not ontologically One!

Blessings

March 7, 2007 at 7:01 am#43932

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Hi all!

I appreciate your responses and will get to them all. Time is a little tight but will get better.

Especially have some good stuff for you cubes. Blessings

March 7, 2007 at 7:20 am#43935

Participant

Hi W,
You will walk in broad company going back 1800 years and you will never lack huge support.
Good luck.

March 7, 2007 at 11:00 am#43942

TimothyVI

Participant

Hi WorshippingJesus,
I have to admit, I am confused about exactly what trinitarianism is.
I thought that the belief was that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three co-equal Gods in one.

Some people however still believe in the trinity but say that the three are not co-equal.

If they are co-equal, why did Jesus talk himself hoarse telling everyone that
the Father was greater than He? That He could do nothing without the Father.
Things like that.

I am not trying to put you on the spot. I truly do not know what your understanding of the
trinity is. It seems that the Catholic understanding of the trinity differs somewhat from
the Protestant idea of the trinity.

Tim

March 7, 2007 at 5:58 pm#43954

Worshipping Jesus

Participant

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 07 2007,11:00)

Hi WorshippingJesus,
I have to admit, I am confused about exactly what trinitarianism is.
I thought that the belief was that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost were three co-equal Gods in one.

Some people however still believe in the trinity but say that the three are not co-equal.

If they are co-equal, why did Jesus talk himself hoarse telling everyone that
the Father was greater than He? That He could do nothing without the Father.
Things like that.

Tim

Hi TimothyVI

To be sure my friend there is a lot of confusion about the Godhead.

Even the apposers of the trinitarianism view differ in many ways about the Godhead.

Lets face it we are talking about a God that is so far above us that we cannot possibly understand in our finite minds the full nature of God.

I know I will get critisized for this statement but it is the truth.

Consider this….

If you have very keen eyes, you may be able to see 2,500 stars on a clear night, and if you can see 2,000 you do fairly well.

By contrast, the Bible states…

Jer 33:22
As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured: so will I multiply the seed of David my servant, and the Levites that minister unto me.

During the thousand's of years before Galileo's invention of the telescope, such a statement was considered to be either false or at least a gross exaggeration.

The stars uncountable?

The universe, they said, was too small to contain that many stars! However, using such giant telescopes as the “200 inch” on Mount Palomar in California, astronomers have estimated that there are billions of billions of stars in the visible universe.

More specifically, astronomers estimate that their number is equal to 1,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000 or one sextillion.

Is this an uncountable number?

That is-the number that can be seen through the telescopes! But as far as man can see the universe stretches on and on into infinity- We have never discovered its outer perimeter.

We therefore conclude that the term “uncountable” is indeed a very appropriate description of the number of stars in the universe.

Yet in Ps. 147:4 we read that…

“GOD telleth the number of the stars; HE calleth them all by their names.“

God is not only able to number the stars- these billions of billions of blazing suns- but He calls each of them by name–He has ascribed a nature, a power, a purpose to each!

To get some idea of the vastness of the universe…the star known as “Alpha Hercules” is more than 2,400,000,000 miles across. It is so huge that our own sun, together with the earth (at its distance of about 93 million miles from the sun) could be placed 25 times IN A ROW across the middle of this super giant star. To fly through-this star from one end to the other (if it were possible!) at 25,000 miles per hour your rocket would take 11 years!

What distances!

What a GOD!

Ps 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Think of it! All this right down to every hair of your head and down to every cell and atom, the Bible declares that all this was made by Jesus and without him nothing was made that was made, and he upholds it all by the word of his power and by him all of it consist.

And yet we cannot say he is God? Not “a god” as some would claim, that would be polythiesm.

There are those who say they believe in this Jesus and yet cant call him the true God. God in the flesh!

This is the Spirit of Anti-Christ.

They make him into just another annointed Prophet or Son of God like us in every way.

Jesus is the second Adam, the Lord from heaven!

Now is this Jesus greater than the Father? No.

Is the Father greater than Jesus? Yes, but only in rank and authority. Although at the moment “All Authority and Power” is Given to Jesus.

Matt 28:19
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, “that God may be all in all.”

But Ontologically they are the same in substance and essence and nature.

Just as you are the same in substance and nature as your Father.

With you though you and your Father are two beings.

Not with God because God is a Spirit and we know there is One Spirit.

The scriptures clearly teach Plurality in Oneness with God.

In fact creation teaches it!

There is no other way to see it without disregarding or twisting the scriptures.

The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are One God not three beings. Divinely and uniquelly and wonderfully together as One.

Three persons One God!

Jesus was not the Son untill he took on Human form.

Now we have a true Mediator between God and man. The God/man Jesus. The Lord from heaven!

I hope this helps.

Blessings

March 7, 2007 at 6:18 pm#43956

Participant

Hi W,
The confusion comes from the doctrine and is innate to it.
What do you expect when it is not found in the teachings of the bible?

March 8, 2007 at 12:00 am#43989

TimothyVI

Participant

Thank you worshippingJesus,
I better understand your understanding of the trinity.
In fact, I have printed out your response for further reading.

One question though. You said “Is the Father greater than Jesus? Yes, but only in rank and authority.”
Does that mean that you think that they are co-equal in power?
Wasn't Jesus the first of creation? Which I thought meant that God created Jesus first and then
created everything else through Jesus.

Sorry for the continued probing. I don't know if this is even the proper thread.

Tim

March 8, 2007 at 1:57 am#43994

Participant

Hi w,
You say
“But Ontologically they are the same in substance and essence and nature.”
Is this written
or only written in dusty theological textbooks?

March 8, 2007 at 3:10 am#44001

Participant

Hi W,
You say
“There are those who say they believe in this Jesus and yet cant call him the true God. God in the flesh!

This is the Spirit of Anti-Christ.”

Yet scripture says the opposite
1Jn 4
” 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. “
Do you think we should prefer your opinion?

March 8, 2007 at 3:14 am#44002