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Cubes
Thanks for responding.
You say…
Quote I completely agree with the examples you've used here though they do not serve the Trinity cause. If all your examples were analyzed, we'd find that not all parts of the groups are equal. Even Water has a 2:1 ratio of Hydrogen and Oxygen. The examples I gave were not to prove the Trinitarian view, but rather to show that basically the whole creation, (which reveals the Glory of God), is based on “Plurality of Oneness”.
Everything you think of has many parts but is one in some way. Can you think of anything that dosnt have plurality?
I agree with you that not all parts are equal. I find it interesting though that water has a 2:1 ratio since the Word/God, the Lord from heaven, took on human form and was born the Man Jesus, God in the flesh. So we have the Father who is God and we have the Son who is God in the flesh!
You say…
Quote I'll add one more, We being many are one body with Christ. Are we not? And yet, is Christ not our head?
Yes Christ is our head.But, I don’t see your wording “ONE Body *with* Christ” in the scriptures!. This could Imply that Christ is *of* the Body and not the Head. He is the “Head”, as you say, but scripturally we are ONE Body “Of” or “In” Christ who is the “head” of that One Body. While it is true that Jesus is with the Body as the head, yet he is not “of” the Body but the body is of him!
The Body is not the head and the head is not the body, just as the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father.
But the body and the head makes one “New Man”.
So simce we are on the subject, lets look a little closer at what this means.
1 Cor 12:
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ (One New Man).
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Here we see that the One Body is joined by the One Spirit. We are joined by being Baptised into the Body by drinking the Spirit.
We could get into a lot of doctrinal issues here with Baptism. But the focus of these verses I think is the Spirit
Who or what is the Spirit? Lets look at some scriptures.
Jn 4:
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.Interesting. “If thou knewest who it is that saith to thee.”
Jesus the Lord from heaven says he would give her living water or “the gift of God”
Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Is this a contradiction? Is Jesus the Father? No. Only God could give the Holy Spirit. Not to mention Jesus is the Baptiser of the Spirit.
Compare…
Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Then Jesus says…
Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.So heres what we know…
1.There is One body
2. Theres is One head of that body.
3. Theres is One Spirit that joins the body and the head.
4. There is the Holy Spirit which the Father and Son will send.
5. God is a Spirit. So the One Spirit is the Spirit of God!
6. The Spirit Proceeds From the Father and Jesus.
Rev 22:1
1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Paul explains it very well.
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God (Theos) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, (Christos) he is none of his.
10 And if Christ(Christos) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.So we have the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Him, His Spirit, and the Spirit, all uniquelly and wonderfully and gloriously as One Spirit.
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord (kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Jesus the Lord from heaven, is the Spirit!
Compare..
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?There will be those who will try to spritualise or esplain his words away. I am a literalist and take the scriptures literally until I find good reason not to.
Paul a strict Monothiest, being a Hebrew of the Hebrews Says that the Son of God, Jesus lives in us by his Spirit, calling the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.
Jesus fills his body by his Spirit which is the Spirit of God.
However the Father who is a Spirit fills his Temple with his Spirit.
The Holy Spirit (Comforter) fills the believer proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Father
, Son and Holy Spirit, One Spirit and One God!You say…
Quote To hurt one little member of Christ is to hurt Christ, remember what he said to Saul on the Road to Demascus? Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Did Paul ever actually ever persecute Jesus in person that we know of? We've only been told that Saul persecuted the FOLLOWERS of Christ. He admits to the same, never to actually ever having seen or met Christ beforehand, let alone persecute him.
Remember, the head is not the body. They are “One” but they are not the same. Just as the Father and the Son and the Spirit are One yet not the same.
You say…
Quote Well, if you would DISagree with my interpretation of this scripture and that Eternal GOD is our Heavenly Father, then why can't you include us in the identity and being of the Trinity, since this is yet another way to prove that we ARE Christ, by the Trinity interpretation of scripture regarding GOD. Its quite simple Cubes. Being a member of the Body of Christ does not make us a member of the Godhead.
Unless you can say you are “The Spirit” that joins us as one Body to the Head. Unless you can say that you are “The Spirit” that fills the Temple of God which our bodys are.
You say…
Quote You have to stick with your own rules, WJ. According to your rules, we are literally Christ Jesus! These are not my rules Cubes. Its simple her•me•neu•tics.
You say…
Quote Recall what Paul said to the Gentiles?
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Not sure where you are going here. But the context is the grafting in of the Gentiles into the Body of Christ.You say…
Quote And also the scripture regarding the potter and the clay?
Rom 9:20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?Since GOD is the begetter of the Son, he is literally the potter and Christ is the clay. I believe that Father God was in total control of his Word, decision to speak and to beget Christ. That is what makes him God. If Christ could have spoken himself into being and begot himself as Messiah and the Son of God, we wouldn't be having this discussion. We will all be modalists!
HMMM. By him,(the Lord from heaven), all things were made that was made and without him nothing was made that was made.
Could you maybe give me a scripture that shows that Jesus is the clay and the Father is his potter?
God begat the Son at his natural birth, unless you believe he was a Son who was born a Son.
You say…
Quote Jesus was desired/wanted by the Father, so he beget him. “To which of the angels did he say….?” He could have, but chose not to say it to any angel but to the Christ. GOD is in perfect and total control of whatever HE does.
God desired something, so he spoke!Could you give me a scripture that shows that the Word had a beginning?
“to which of the angels did he say…?”
He didn’t say because they were created by him. Jesus is the “Creator” as you read in the latter part of the 1 Ch of Hebrews, he is not the creature.
You say…
Quote GOD IS THE FATHER, Not the Son of God and Son of Man. God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
Selah
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,01:24) Yes Christ is our head. But, I don’t see your wording “ONE Body *with* Christ” in the scriptures!. This could Imply that Christ is *of* the Body and not the Head. He is the “Head”, as you say, but scripturally we are ONE Body “Of” or “In” Christ who is the “head” of that One Body. While it is true that Jesus is with the Body as the head, yet he is not “of” the Body but the body is of him!
The Body is not the head and the head is not the body, just as the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father.
But the body and the head makes one “New Man”.
So simce we are on the subject, lets look a little closer at what this means.
1 Cor 12:
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ (One New Man).
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Here we see that the One Body is joined by the One Spirit. We are joined by being Baptised into the Body by drinking the Spirit.
We could get into a lot of doctrinal issues here with Baptism. But the focus of these verses I think is the Spirit
Who or what is the Spirit? Lets look at some scriptures.
Jn 4:
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.Interesting. “If thou knewest who it is that saith to thee.”
Jesus the Lord from heaven says he would give her living water or “the gift of God”
Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Is this a contradiction? Is Jesus the Father? No. Only God could give the Holy Spirit. Not to mention Jesus is the Baptiser of the Spirit.
Compare…
Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Then Jesus says…
Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.So heres what we know…
1.There is One body
2. Theres is One head of that body.
3. Theres is One Spirit that joins the body and the head.
4. There is the Holy Spirit which the Father and Son will send.
5. God is a Spirit. So the One Spirit is the Spirit of God!
6. The Spirit Proceeds From the Father and Jesus.
Rev 22:1
1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Paul explains it very well.
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God (Theos) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, (Christos) he is none of his.
10 And if Christ(Christos) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.So we have the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Him, His Spirit, and the Spirit, all uniquelly and wonderfully and gloriously as One Spirit.
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord (kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Jesus the Lord from heaven, is the Spirit!
Compare..
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?There will be those who will try to spritualise or esplain his words away. I am a literalist and take the scriptures literally until I find good reason not to.
Paul a strict Monothiest, being a Hebrew of the Hebrews Says that the Son of God, Jesus lives in us by his Spirit, calling the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.
Jesus fills his body by his Spirit which is the Spirit of God.
However the Father who is a Spirit fills his Temple with his Spirit.
The Holy Spirit (Comforter) fills the believer proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One Spirit and One God!
Excellent WJ!Hi w,
“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”
Was God in God?So the ONENESS between the Father and the Son precludes the Son ACTUALLY ever being a truly separate son.
Your understanding of unity is is that God, or a part of God, came in the flesh as the Son in all the powers of that never separate ONENESS with the Father? So God was not anointed with godly powers but always had them?
Hmmm.
Not really an anointed one, the Christ either then? And the Spirit could not have been used by God to anoint him because God would not need to anoint God would He with another person in God. And God would not need anointing anyway.
Naah
CobblersQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,06:24) Cubes Thanks for responding.
You say…
Quote I completely agree with the examples you've used here though they do not serve the Trinity cause. If all your examples were analyzed, we'd find that not all parts of the groups are equal. Even Water has a 2:1 ratio of Hydrogen and Oxygen. The examples I gave were not to prove the Trinitarian view, but rather to show that basically the whole creation, (which reveals the Glory of God), is based on “Plurality of Oneness”.
Everything you think of has many parts but is one in some way. Can you think of anything that dosnt have plurality?
I agree with you that not all parts are equal. I find it interesting though that water has a 2:1 ratio since the Word/God, the Lord from heaven, took on human form and was born the Man Jesus, God in the flesh. So we have the Father who is God and we have the Son who is God in the flesh!
Hi WJ,I haven't considered the question of plurality in the creation into any depth, and don't know much about chemistry etc so can't answer that question, but do agree that many things appear to consist of various INGREDIENTS or components. But that proves nothing that we can say about God's nature as far as he being one or a Trinity. I only thank God that these parts are not consistently or necessarily seen in threes per se! Was it you who recently said something about humans having body, soul and spirit – three parts that = one body? How about the gazillion cells, hair, blood vessels, bones etc that comprise the physical body? And who can say what or how many components makes up the soul and human spirit? Unknown territory.
So things having parts, if you wish to use that argument, could only say that GOD has an indeterminate amount of persons that make up his being, which is not the message that I've been sent to proclaim. I can more truthly say he is the source of all things.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,06:24) You say… Quote I'll add one more, We being many are one body with Christ. Are we not? And yet, is Christ not our head?
Yes Christ is our head.But, I don’t see your wording “ONE Body *with* Christ” in the scriptures!. This could Imply that Christ is *of* the Body and not the Head. He is the “Head”, as you say, but scripturally we are ONE Body “Of” or “In” Christ who is the “head” of that One Body. While it is true that Jesus is with the Body as the head, yet he is not “of” the Body but the body is of him!
The Body is not the head and the head is not the body, just as the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father.
But the body and the head makes one “New Man”.
So simce we are on the subject, lets look a little closer at what this means.
1 Cor 12:
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ (One New Man).
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Here we see that the One Body is joined by the One Spirit. We are joined by being Baptised into the Body by drinking the Spirit.
We could get into a lot of doctrinal issues here with Baptism. But the focus of these verses I think is the Spirit
Selah
Hi WJ,You are correct, I shouldn't have used “with”. Let me rectify that by using the exact quote. To use “with” actually makes more your argument than it does mine, because it suggests that Christ is either APART from his body, or in ADDITION to his body. Yes, a body and its head are typically joined making up the whole individual person [one congregation/temple of God], even though the head is preeminent and the more vital part of that body.
So to suggest that Christ as head is NOT part of or inclusive of his own body is erroneous. This is another way in which the Trinity doctrine contradicts itself through inconsistencies.
Here are two inconsistencies of the trinity doctrine:
a. Christ has his own unique will and experiences apart from the average human being (creature); each member of the body likewise from the other. Here we understand that the persons are one through unity in the spirit of God. That while Christ is our head, he is not any one of us, nor are we each other… and yet we are one body. So the Trinitarian employs UNITY in this context and would not agree that we are CHRIST, and since we are not Christ, we cannot be GOD.
b. GOD has his own unique will, in fact, it is his will or no way! The Trinitarian must decide whether or not Christ has a different will apart from GOD's, and if not, then he must explain scriptures like Jesus praying to GOD and declaring, “Our Father…, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN,” and saying of himself, “not my will but thine be done…. I delight to do thy will O GOD, etc”
He explains this by having a different Jesus, one who must be surbordinated to GOD [but he is GOD you say, … and yet, he is not modal either because that equation doesn't work either…] since he has become a man who like us, needs GOD. Other than that his will is intact as GOD. No unity is needed when you are yourself!Whereas scripture tells us that Christ Jesus is the SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY and Forever…. We are encouraged to put on the mind of Christ, that is, to desire to do the will of GOD, and do it, as he led us in example to worship GOD.
But here, the trinitarian no longer sees unity as applicable, for to him Jesus Christ is GOD literally.
Inconsistencies, I tell you.
Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Ephesians 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, OF HIS FLESH, AND OF HIS BONES.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.1Cr 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Cr 10:17 For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, [as unto] a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, [and] precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.Well, goodnight for now.
I hope to respond to the latter part of your post tomorrow..
*PS: by Trinitarian, I typically mean defenders of the Trinity Doctrine, not necessarily the average believer and seeker after God.
Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 04 2007,03:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,06:24) Cubes Thanks for responding.
You say…
Quote I completely agree with the examples you've used here though they do not serve the Trinity cause. If all your examples were analyzed, we'd find that not all parts of the groups are equal. Even Water has a 2:1 ratio of Hydrogen and Oxygen. The examples I gave were not to prove the Trinitarian view, but rather to show that basically the whole creation, (which reveals the Glory of God), is based on “Plurality of Oneness”.
Everything you think of has many parts but is one in some way. Can you think of anything that dosnt have plurality?
I agree with you that not all parts are equal. I find it interesting though that water has a 2:1 ratio since the Word/God, the Lord from heaven, took on human form and was born the Man Jesus, God in the flesh. So we have the Father who is God and we have the Son who is God in the flesh!
Hi WJ,I haven't considered the question of plurality in the creation into any depth, and don't know much about chemistry etc so can't answer that question, but do agree that many things appear to consist of various INGREDIENTS or components. But that proves nothing that we can say about God's nature as far as he being one or a Trinity. I only thank God that these parts are not consistently or necessarily seen in threes per se! Was it you who recently said something about humans having body, soul and spirit – three parts that = one body? How about the gazillion cells, hair, blood vessels, bones etc that comprise the physical body? And who can say what or how many components makes up the soul and human spirit? Unknown territory.
So things having parts, if you wish to use that argument, could only say that GOD has an indeterminate amount of persons that make up his being, which is not the message that I've been sent to proclaim. I can more truthly say he is the source of all things.
CubesAs I said….
“The examples I gave were not to prove the Trinitarian view, but rather to show that basically the whole creation, (which reveals the Glory of God), is based on “Plurality of Oneness”.”So simply put to just say that God cannot be Plural and yet be One seems to go against the very design of his creation which reveals the Glory of God.
Not to mention the scriptures which show the same thing.
Rom 1:20 NIV
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Blessings
Hi W,
So if God made for example male and female, multicoloured, short and tall, big and small aspects of creation usually then HE MUST BE MULTIPARTITE or MULTIDIMENSIONAL too? Hmmm. Greek logic.Of course Jesus did not have the glory of God, as seen by John and other apostles but his own glory.
Jn 1
“14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. “And so also wrote Peter in 2 Peter 1
” 16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.”
No more cunningly devised fables please.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,06:24) The Body is not the head and the head is not the body, just as the Father is not the Son nor is the Son the Father.
Your little toe or finger would disagree with you here if you've ever stubbed your toe or had an annoying splinter. The body is one and is joined together as indicated in Eph 4:16.Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith
And
1Cr 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cr 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Cr 12:17 If the whole body [were] an eye, where [were] the hearing? If the whole [were] hearing, where [were] the smelling?
1Cr 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Cr 12:19 And if they were all one member, where [were] the body?
1Cr 12:20 But now [are they] many members, yet but one body.
1Cr 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Cr 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Cr 12:23 And those [members] of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely [parts] have more abundant comeliness.
1Cr 12:24 For our comely [parts] have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [part] which lacked:
1Cr 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but [that] the members should have the same care one for another.
1Cr 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Cr 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Although the head clearly has a different and greater function, subsequently, a greater glory but any achievements represents the whole person and edifies the whole. Thus, Christ is inclusive of his larger body [church] through unity of the spirit, as head of that body and is preeminent over it if we put on his mind. But it is GOD, the Father, who rules over this body of which Christ is head. If you need more scriptures, let me know but I refer you to Ephesians in its entirety.ADDENDUM: And for that matter, the ear is not the foot, nor a tooth an eye SO how is it then that they are considered as one body and a tooth ache sends a rippling pain through the body from what I've seen and heard? And if the ear is not a foot, nor the tooth an eye, etc but they make up the same body, why do you still say that the body is not part of the Trinity? Again, your rule of interpretation fails here.
Hi w,
Rom 1:20 NIV
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.What is plain is that God has not revealed He is a trinity through His creation.
Since the nature of God is clearly seen through creation why do men dare to teach trinity?
They leave thenselves without excuse and someday they will perhaps need some.Hi
Is 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.As much as I disagree with the Trinity… this verse totally throws me off
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 04 2007,06:24) Who or what is the Spirit? Lets look at some scriptures. Jn 4:
7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.Interesting. “If thou knewest who it is that saith to thee.”
Jesus the Lord from heaven says he would give her living water or “the gift of God”
Lk 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?Is this a contradiction? Is Jesus the Father? No. Only God could give the Holy Spirit. Not to mention Jesus is the Baptiser of the Spirit.
Compare…
Jn 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.Jn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:Then Jesus says…
Jn 4:
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.So heres what we know…
1.There is One body
2. Theres is One head of that body.
3. Theres is One Spirit that joins the body and the head.
4. There is the Holy Spirit which the Father and Son will send.
5. God is a Spirit. So the One Spirit is the Spirit of God!
6. The Spirit Proceeds From the Father and Jesus.
Rev 22:1
1] And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.Paul explains it very well.
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God (Theos) dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, (Christos) he is none of his.
10 And if Christ(Christos) be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.So we have the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Him, His Spirit, and the Spirit, all uniquelly and wonderfully and gloriously as One Spirit.
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord (kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.Jesus the Lord from heaven, is the Spirit!
Compare..
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?There will be those who will try to spritualise or esplain his words away. I am a literalist and take the scriptures literally until I find good reason not to.
Paul a strict Monothiest, being a Hebrew of the Hebrews Says that the Son of God, Jesus lives in us by his Spirit, calling the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God.
Jesus fills his body by his Spirit which is the Spirit of God.
However the Father who is a Spirit fills his Temple with his Spirit.
The Holy Spirit (Comforter) fills the believer proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One Spirit and One God!
Hi WJ,I hope to come back and devote more focus to the holy spirit aspect of your post. Right now, if you are saying that it is by one spirit that we are one body and joined to Christ and the Father, I whole heartedly agree, but not necessarily with all you've said.
I disagree, for instance, with your interpretation and conclusion of John 4:
Don't forget, Jesus himself IS the gift of God, in as much as there are other gifts of God which come to us through him, when we believe that God sent his son to us. Thus in a sense, Christ himself is our FIRST gift from GOD as pertains to eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The PRINCE of Peace.
Jhn 3:16 FOR GOD so loved the world, that he GAVE HIS ONLY begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Everlasting life is a conditional gift in that it is first dependent upon our acceptance of the primary/first GIFT, who is Christ Jesus. We are commanded to BELIEVE that GOD sent his son to save the world and that Jesus is that son.
So when Jesus says to the Samaritan woman in John 4:10f,
“If thou knewest the gift of GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water,” he is in NO WAY implying that he is GOD.He is referring to scriptures like John 3:16, confirming that he is that Son whom God sent, the Messiah, and that if the woman would believe and ask, she shall receive the everlasting life promised by GOD (meaning that GOD is none other than the FATHER), to those who believe in his Son, WHO it was that spoke with her, the Messiah!
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
If anything, Jesus in this wonderful passage seizes another opportunity to explicitly show that he is not GOD. He even tells the woman, “I am he,” meaning Messiah. Which i
s so much more direct a statement than the straws that Trinitarians grasp at when they insist on the I AMs of Christ as referring to the famous exodus verse.Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Jhn 4:11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Jhn 4:12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?
Jhn 4:13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jhn 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.
Jhn 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Jhn 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Jhn 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Jhn 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Jhn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
Jhn 4:27 And upon this came his disciples, and marvelled that he talked with the woman: yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why talkest thou with her?
Jhn 4:28 The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
Jhn 4:29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?vs 14: Jesus has authority to say this because 1. The Father has given him such authority, putting all things under his feet excepting the Father himself as he himself shall submit to GOD at the end. 1 Cor 15:27f
2. The Father has given him to have life in himself.
3. He is the Second Adam and has been given such authority that many should be receive eternal life through thim.vs. 21: Jesus confirms that the one who is worshipped is and ought to be THE FATHER.
vs. 22: He says salvation is of the Jews and that they know what they worship. Read the bible again and get an idea who the righteous, God fearing Jews worshipped as GOD: it would prove to be the GOD and Father of Jesus whom he came to make known.
vs. 23-24: He says: …true worshippers shall worship THE FATHER in spirit and in truth: for THE FATHER seeketh such to worship HIM.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.The Spirit referred to cannot be other than the Father only, because again, he repeats, SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! in both verses, and directly confirms that the subject of the two verses is the same: THE FATHER who is the only true GOD and IS SPIRIT. Please believe his testimony!
Jhn 4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he].
in response to the woman's statement in vs. 25.Jesus here makes a clear difference between the Father – GOD – and himself. The Father is GOD. He Jesus on the hand is the Messiah and Son of GOD. The woman LEFT her waterpot (I can imagine her excitement!). When She got back to the men, this is what she said: “Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?
No one in the scriptures would tell you that Messiah is GOD.
Here's what John 3:31f says:
Jhn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
Jhn 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
Jhn 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].
Jhn 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Qualify John 3:31 with 1 Cor 15:27fI apologise for the long post but it's as compact as I could deal w/ John 4 and show that Jesus didn't intend himself to be perceived by the woman or any of as as GOD, but rather as the awesome individual Son of the Most High GOD.
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 05 2007,13:44) Hi Is 9:6
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.As much as I disagree with the Trinity… this verse totally throws me off
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix.I give you the following explanation regarding this verse.
Isaiah 9:6
or to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”'Here we can see that Jesus is called “Mighty God”. The word in the Hebrew used here is “El” and this word means the following:
1) god, godlike one, mighty one
1a) mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
1b) angels
1c) god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
2) mighty things in nature
3) strength, power“So Jesus is the Mighty El and this can be interpreted to mean that Jesus is the 'Mighty God Like One' which is consistent with the overwhelming amount of scriptures that show us that The Father is God and Jesus his image.
It must be stressed that Isaiah 9:6 doesn't say “Almighty God”. (The term Almighty God indicates that there are Gods of a lesser position). The term “Mighty God” in Hebrew is ´El Gib·bohr´ and the term “Almighty God in Hebrew is ´El Shad·dai´ and applies uniquely to YHWH.
The other part of the scripture that mentions the term 'Everlasting Father' seems like a contradiction as it seems to indicate that Jesus is the Father, which if taken the wrong way can also lead to error similar to that of the Oneness doctrine. The word Father that is used here is “Ab” and this word is the same word that is used when describing Abraham as our Father and this scripture is just a reference to say that Jesus is our Everlasting Father, in other words he is greater than Abraham, but it certainly doesn't say 'Heavenly Father'.
It is very important to read scriptures not only in context but also in agreement with other scriptures, especially since it is possible to interpret some scripture in more than one way, because of the wide varying uses and meanings of some words.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2007,01:49) Bless you for this godly wisdom cubes.
Hi Nick,
Thank you. Your faithfulness is a blessing, when I can't be there to plug away with you.
Blessings.Cubes
I will get to your post. As you can see that they are getting long.
As they build I trust that we will do the best to keep them as short as poosible, which is difficult for me when I like to respond to every statement.
But I would like to respond to the end of one post where you said…
Quote
*PS: by Trinitarian, I typically mean defenders of the Trinity Doctrine, not necessarily the average believer and seeker after God.
I am not sure what you mean by average believer and seeker of God.How do you know what is average?
If the inference is that most Trinitarians are not believers and seekers of God.
Then I think that is a really broad statement to make against millions of Christians that believe that Jesus is the Son of God and their Savior. After all that is what it means to be be saved and accepted among the brethren is it not?
Hi w,
And once this diversion is put aside we can return to the discussion of the Messiah Christ Jesus and how anyone can claim he is also the God Who sent him into the world and How he was possibly anointed by God with another a “person” in God?Acts 10
” 38How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. “In my experience believers are normally quite confused about the doctrine that teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of the God that he is suppose to be.
But I know that they can easily comprehend that the Father has a son and the son is called the son of God and that the Father is greater than all.
So I find that most do not delve too deeply into this subject and think that this is the field for those who possess great intellect, because the Trinity doctrine baffles them.
So for me the average believer cannot truly believe that which he doesn't know, but it is the teachers of the Trinity doctrine that are responsible. They teach with authority, but there authority is not of the truth.
We are here to expose this doctrine and help set the captives free.
Similarly some believers expose certain scientific theories/doctrines that are opposed to the truth.
It is then up to each individual what to believe. But how can they believe if they haven't heard? When they have heard the evidence, it is up to them at that point.
Another interesting note. If you look at the Hebrew interlineary of the actual text,
it says. He shall be called ” Marvelous one- Counseling to Master Father-of-future chief-of-welfare”.The Hebrew word al which means “to” was left out of the KJV translation.
To counsel can mean to reccommend. So is it possible that Jesus is the marvelous one (wonderful) who recommends us
to his Father.Just something to think about.
Tim
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