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Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2007,16:40) Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2007,19:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,09:51) Quote I believe that my opening remarks in the first two paragraphs as well as my closing remarks are enough to establish the spirit in which I wrote. If Paul can say,
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.then I have by no means attained, but I too press on for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ seeking to grow in the knowledge of the True God.
I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall. But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.
If God is a Trinity, or modal, then I am worshiping the wrong God.
If God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, then Trinitarians and Modalists are worshipping the wrong God.
Our sincerity matters little in this regard since God calls us to worship HIM as GOD and no other God. And how does ascribing worship to the wrong God differ from those of other faiths? Do they not worship their God(s) in sincerity?
That, my friend, is the real question of concern.
Cubes
Its is interesting to me how you post your response with all of your qoutes and then continue to assert your position without addressing any of my post.
You say…
Quote I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall. But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures. Then please take my common scriptures and give me your interpretation and how they fit into your modal, then maybe we can have some serious dialogue based on scripture and facts rather than playing word games and politics.
You had said the burden of proof was on you in a previous post.
I think the same burden is on each one of us who hold what we believe to be the truth of Gods word.
You say…
Quote If God is a Trinity, or modal, then I am worshiping the wrong God. You said it!
You say…
Quote Fair enough. Which Jesus? The three in one Jesus or the only begotten Son of God who worships God? These are the issues, WJ.
I question what Jesus you are speaking of!Blessings!
Hi WJ,Thanks once again for your response. I am in agreement.
You know what the scriptures say that if you bring an offering to the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, then you are to leave your gifts at the altar and go and try and seek resolution before coming back.There was no point in delving into scripture without an attempt to clear the air, so to speak.
Now, if you don't mind, could you kindly refer me to a page(s) where you want me to go back and address the scriptures you presented? The thread is moving fast and I am unable to keep up as I ought but we can begin with your next post.
Regards.
WJ,For clarification, I do not believe in the Modalism of GOD.
Hi w,
Why follow experts?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2007,21:05) NH There should be no exceptions in the scriptures. Or you have a weak foundation to be sure.
100s of Scholars, Greek and Hebrew experts have brought us the scriptures.
True there may be different interpretations of the scriptures.
But NH what if I said that 1 Cor. 8:6 should be thrown out because it seems to support the Arian theololgy?
I am quite sure that the few exceptions you are talking about support the trinitarian view like Jn 1:1.
Jn 1:1 is enough for me. All the experts agree that John was not a liar.
Maybe you should write you own Bible like the JWs. Then you can change what you want to fit your doctrine.
So you have chosen to build your faith on “Questionable scriptures”.
Please show me which scriptures we should throw out of the Cannon NH.
What credentials do you have to question the 100s of experts?
John 1:1 doesn't teach a Trinity and if that is the foundation of your doctrine, then I can assure you that your doctrine is sunk. The Book of John is all about proving that Jesus is the Christ and son of God. That is the reason for this book.You say that Nick should write his own bible, but you cannot see because of the log in your eye. It seems obvious that you should write a Trinity Bible then that way you could eliminate difficult verses that show the Trinity doctrine to be sham.
Here are the first 100 verses you could change or delete:
Matthew 27:46
Mark 1:24
Mark 10:18
Mark 15:34
Mark 16:19
Luke 2:52
Luke 6:12
Luke 18:19
John 3:2
John 8:42
John 8:54
John 9:3
John 13:31
John 14:1*
John 17:3
John 20:17
Acts 2:22
Acts 2:32
Acts 2:36
Acts 3:13
Acts 4:10
Acts 5:30
Acts 7:55
Acts 10:36
Acts 10:38
Acts 13:23
Acts 20:21
Romans 1:7
Romans 1:8
Romans 2:16
Romans 3:22
Romans 4:24
Romans 5:1
Romans 5:11
Romans 5:15
Romans 5:17
Romans 6:23
Romans 7:25
Romans 8:34
Romans 10:9
Romans 15:5
Romans 15:6
Romans 16:27
1 Corinthians 1:3
1 Corinthians 1:9
1 Corinthians 1:30
1 Corinthians 8:6
1 Corinthians 15:57
2 Corinthians 1:2
2 Corinthians 1:3
2 Corinthians 11:31
2 Corinthians 13:14
Galatians 1:1
Galatians 1:3
Ephesians 1:2
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17
Ephesians 2:6
Ephesians 6:23
Philippians 1:2
Philippians 2:11
Colossians 1:3*
Colossians 3:17
1 Thessalonians 1:1
1 Thessalonians 1:3
1 Thessalonians 3:11
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:14
1 Thessalonians 5:9
2 Thessalonians 1:1
2 Thessalonians 1:2
2 Thessalonians 1:12
2 Thessalonians 2:16
1 Timothy 1:1
1 Timothy 1:2
1 Timothy 2:5
1 Timothy 5:21
1 Timothy 6:3
2 Timothy 1:1
2 Timothy 1:2
2 Timothy 4:1
Titus 1:4
Titus 2:13
Philemon 1:3
Hebrews 13:20
James 1:1
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:5
2 Peter 1:1
2 Peter 1:2
1 John 5:1*
1 John 5:20
2 John 1:3
Jude 1:1
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:21
Jude 1:25
Revelation 1:1
Revelation 1:2
Revelation 14:12Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 02 2007,02:05) [ There should be no exceptions in the scriptures. Or you have a weak foundation to be sure.
100s of Scholars, Greek and Hebrew experts have brought us the scriptures.
True there may be different interpretations of the scriptures.
But NH what if I said that 1 Cor. 8:6 should be thrown out because it seems to support the Arian theololgy?
I am quite sure that the few exceptions you are talking about support the trinitarian view like Jn 1:1.
Jn 1:1 is enough for me. All the experts agree that John was not a liar.
Maybe you should write you own Bible like the JWs. Then you can change what you want to fit your doctrine.
So you have chosen to build your faith on “Questionable scriptures”.
Please show me which scriptures we should throw out of the Cannon NH.
What credentials do you have to question the 100s of experts?
Hi Worshipping Jesus,
I am curious how we know which scriptures to throw out as well. Also which version of the bible is the most accurate.People have obviously decided that the scribes added to the scriptures, consequently we have removed things like 1 John 5:7 from all newer additions of the bible. Even the canonization was not inspired by God. If it was then how could the protestants remove 14 complete books from the authorized bible that we consider to be the right one.
The scriptures themselves tell us to not believe everything that is written because the scribes lied.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
Moses came down from the mountain with a whole bunch of laws supposedly given by God. These laws included all of the sacrificial laws. And yet God told us through the great prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah that all of that burning of things for him was an abomination to him. He never commanded it.
Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jer 7:23 “But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
Isa 1:12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Isa 1:13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies– I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
Isa 1:14 “I hate your new moon {festivals} and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing {them.}The scriptures just tell us what Moses said. They do not tell us that what he said was true. Maybe Moses just made some things up on the way down the mountain. Moses gave us the laws concerning tithing.
The people must tithe to only the levite priests forever. Did it just happen to be a coincidence that Moses was from the tribe of Levy?It is true that “100s of Scholars, Greek and Hebrew experts have brought us the scriptures.”
Unfortunately for us, many of those scholars and experts had an agenda of their own.This has left each of us to glean what we can from the bible with the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Tim
Hi
I have to be away for a short. But “I'll be back” shortly to answer all the post.
Havnt forgot you t8 and NH and Cubes and TimothyVI.
Blessings!
Hi Tim
You quote
“Moses came down from the mountain with a whole bunch of laws supposedly given by God. These laws included all of the sacrificial laws. And yet God told us through the great prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah that all of that burning of things for him was an abomination to him. He never commanded it.Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Jer 7:23 “But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'Isa 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?” Says the LORD. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.
Isa 1:12 “When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
Isa 1:13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies– I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
Isa 1:14 “I hate your new moon {festivals} and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing {them.} “It does not say God did not command them but rather that without circumcision of the heart all other rituals are meaningless to Him and thus useless to man.
Hi Nick,
You said “It does not say God did not command them but rather that without circumcision of the heart all other rituals are meaningless to Him and thus useless to man. “
Really? Read Jer 7:22 again.
Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.I believe that God said exactly what he meant and meant exactly what he said.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 02 2007,18:26) Hi Nick, You said “It does not say God did not command them but rather that without circumcision of the heart all other rituals are meaningless to Him and thus useless to man. “
Really? Read Jer 7:22 again.
Jer 7:22 “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.I believe that God said exactly what he meant and meant exactly what he said.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Context.22″For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them IN THE DAY that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
23″But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'
1 Samuel 15:22
22Samuel said,
“Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
As in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.Psalm 51:16
16For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.Hosea 6:6
6For I delight in loyalty rather than sacrifice,And in the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.
Thanks Nick,
You just reinforced my point.:)And while you are in psalms,
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.Tim
Hi Tim,
Before we accuse God or the men of old of lies we should see that our God loves irony and putting matters in His perspective. Our thoughts are not His and neither are our ways.Hi Nick,
I did not accuse the men of old of lies, God did.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
TimAnd by the way Nick. I never accused GOd of lying. Never even hinted of it.
Accusing God of a lie only came out of your mind.I am not sure I see how God loving irony has any thing to do with his accusing the scribes of lying, or for saying through the prophets that he never commanded such things as burnt offerings.
Tim
Hi Tim,
How much more of the bible do you want us to remove?
It is better to resolve things there rather than rushing to judgement and denying them.Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 02 2007,21:30) Hi Nick,
I did not accuse the men of old of lies, God did.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
Tim
Muslims often appeal to Jeremiah 8:8 as proof that the Torah has been corrupted:“How can you say, ‘We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,’ when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?” Jeremiah 8:8
Several comments are in order. First, even if this passage were speaking about an actual corruption of the text, this would only be referring to the copies that were in the possession of the scribes. It wouldn’t refer to all the copies that were in the hands of others such as Daniel the prophet. More on this later. Secondly, Jeremiah was a prophet of God, which means that he was receiving revelation from God. As such, Jeremiah would have been quite capable of restoring the Torah to its true pristine form at the direct orders of God, and hence nothing of the Torah could be corrupted! In fact, something similar happened with Jeremiah’s own revelation:
from another angle….
This text is one of the most commonly cited by Islamic apologists—well, let me modify that. One verse is, specifically, verse 8, “How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.'” The assertion is that this is a plain, incontestable assertion in the Bible itself that its own text has been corrupted (and, by extension, that the Bible is not the Word of God). Is this what Jeremiah is saying?
Why are there so many christians lining up to do the work of the enemies of christianity?….
TimothyVI, you should think about the implications (for yourself) of undermining the confidence of other christians in the integrity of their scriptures using faulty Islamic arguments….
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2007,04:05) Hi Tim,
How much more of the bible do you want us to remove?
It is better to resolve things there rather than rushing to judgement and denying them.
Hi Nick,
Whose post are you reading?
I never said to remove any of the bible.
If that is what you got from the scriptures that I quoted
from Isaiah and Jeramiah, then that was your conclusion.It was not I that removed 1 Jn 5:7.
It was not I that removed the 14 entire books of the Apocrapha.
Your argument is with someone else.
I believe that God has warned us to read the bible with discernment. That is why we are told to rightly divide the word of God. What I do with that affects my walk with God and no one else.
I don't even understand what you mean with this statement.
“It is better to resolve things there rather than rushing to judgement and denying them.”
Please forgive my lack of understanding.Tim
Good gracious Is 1:18 ,
How can you argue that none of the bible has been corrupted by stating
that the verse that contend such a thing was corrupted itself.That makes absolutely no sense at whatsoever.:(
Is 1:18, you should think about the implications (for yourself) of undermining the confidence of other christians in the integrity of their scriptures using faulty human arguments.
But thank you for showing concern for the implications for me.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 02 2007,21:30) Hi Nick,
I did not accuse the men of old of lies, God did.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Jacob and Israel and Moses and all the men of old made sacrifices to the Lord God and encouraged others to do the same. Have you decided these things were not done under the inspiration of God because of one verse and you are happy to call them liars? Jesus spoke rather more highly of them.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 03 2007,18:04) Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 02 2007,21:30) Hi Nick,
I did not accuse the men of old of lies, God did.
Jer 8:8 “How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made {it} into a lie.
Tim
Hi Tim,
Jacob and Israel and Moses and all the men of old made sacrifices to the Lord God and encouraged others to do the same. Have you decided these things were not done under the inspiration of God because of one verse and you are happy to call them liars? Jesus spoke rather more highly of them.
Welllll,
actually I gave you seven verses that were in agreement as witnesses.
But I don't really care if other people want to believe in a God that commands his people to commit genocide, murder babies, pregnant mothers, and little children as well as offer human and animal sacrifices. I prefer to believe what God said.That He never commanded such a thing.
Jesus also spoke highly of David who was a liar, murderer and a wife stealer. Jesus also spoke highly of Abraham who was a liar and coward that told people that his wife was his sister so that he wouldn't have to defend her.
So what?
I hope that some day, Jesus will speak highly of me even though I have sinned more than Saul who said that he was the greatest of sinners.
Tim
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