Every Knee Shall Bow And Confess to God!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi w, Do you actually worship a trinity God then. How do you do this? Jesus told us true worshipers worship the Father but this must be quite different. Romans 8 tells us the Spirit helps us worship God. Does the Spirit help you to worship Himself or how do you go about this? Is there an order of worship or just as one trinity are they worshiped?

NH

Do you worship God who is the Spirit?

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
God ministers to us by His Spirit and we can reach into God's heart and mind by the help of that same Spirit so that we are one with God just as He is one with the Son. That always was the plan of God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 28 2007,02:30)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 28 2007,20:40) Nh it depends on how define Oneness! Oneness also means:   “the quality or state or fact of being one:” Merriam-Websters. My wife and I are One flesh! The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One God! We can be and should be one with God and one with his son. Trinity logic applied to Jesus being one with God is wrong because if we apply it to us, then we are God too. Of course it means united as you pointed out. It doesn't mean unit. And the Lord God is one God means 1 God. Not 3 united persons. It is written that there is one God (the Father) and that Jesus God, is the Father and his God is our God. So in order to not break scripture, we should teach that there is one God the Father. He is our God and the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. These things are written after all.

T8

You say…

Quote

We can be and should be one with God and one with his son. Trinity logic applied to Jesus being one with God is wrong because if we apply it to us, then we are God too.

Whos says so.

Do you make yourself equal to the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God?

Were you with God in the beginning when he created all things?

Are the scriptures written of you calling you God?

Did the Father command the Angels to worship you?

The problem with the Arian thinking is it makes Jesus into a creature rather than the creator.

So tell me t8, what is your definition of “One” with God?

My wife and I are “One” flesh, but two different persons.

Humanity is “One” but, made up of many humans.

The Body of Christ is One, but made up of many members.

I am Spirit, Soul and Body, but I am one man.

An atom is One, but made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons.

The universe is One, but made up of billions of planets and star systems.

So we see that there are many possibly thousands of examples of “plurality in One”

So simply because you say that “Trinity logic applied to Jesus being one with God is wrong”,
does not mean it is wrong, or by quoting a few scriptures that say the Father is God!

But elevating yourself to the level of Christ is wrong.

For there are scriptures that say the Son is God as well as the Spirit.

We need biblical evidence that is in harmony with the whole of scripture!

You say…

Quote

Of course it means united as you pointed out. It doesn't mean unit.

I am not sure where I said One means united. If I did I would never have implied that Jesus is just united with his Father. The Oneness he has with the Father is much more than unity.

You say…

Quote

And the Lord God is one God means 1 God. Not 3 united persons

As we have already seen, One can be plural. Do you not believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE?

So if you insist on your logic “the Lord God is One God means 1 God and not 3 persons”. Then the Father is the Only Lord!

And you are in denial of a boat load of scriptures both Old and New Testament which show that Jesus is Lord and God!

The very first scripture in the Bible tells us of both the plurality and oneness of God.

Gen 1:1
n the beginning God, (Elohim. It is a plural noun) created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

27 God,(the “us” and “our”), created man in His own image, in the image of God, (the “us” and “our”), He created him; male and female He created them.

In the above passages who is “us” and “our”?

All the major translators translate these scriptures with the “us and “our”.

Heb 1:
10 And, Thou, Lord, (Jesus) in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Here we see Jesus is the creator and yet we read…

Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
“I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone,

Is 45:18
For thus saith the LORD (YHWH) that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Ill say again what I said to NH…

Let scripture interpret itself then you will see that the Lord YHWH alone created all things.

Now If I hold your view of Yeshua (YHWH is salvation), then we have a contradiction in scripture.

YHWH says he created all things by himself and the above says that all things were made by Jesus.

Thus John writes…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You see by revelation John knew who the Monogenes, (Unique) Son was, the Word/God made flesh taking on human form, a body. The Lord from heaven, God manifest in the flesh.

You say…

Quote

It is written that there is one God (the Father) and that Jesus God, is the Father and his God is our God. So in order to not break scripture, we should teach that there is one God the Father. He is our God and the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. These things are written after all

You say “Jesus God” which is true, he is a man also and calls his Father God, and yet the Father calls him Lord and God!

Matt 22:44
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb. 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

In the beginning God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit created all things!

Selah

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
Christ and the Father are one but they are two beings.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:53)

Hi W, Do you abandon all need for order and consistency when you accept the trinity faith such that you can pick and choose when God means THE FATHER or a TRINITY GOD?

NH

What order and consistency are you talking about?

Mans order? Mans finite understanding of an Infinite God?

Jesus said it is given to us to know the Mysterys of the kingdom!

This is done by the Spirit of truth.

So if order and consistency goes against the truth, it should be abandoned!  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:54)

Hi w, You ask “Jn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. Whos sheep are they NH? Was Jesus a Sheep like us?” Do you not know of the LAMB OF GOD?

NH

The Lamb of God, is the Good Shepherd of the sheep!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:57)

Hi W, You choose KJV for Jn 3.13 “Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” NASB 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ESV 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” NIV  13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a] Footnotes: John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven

NH

As it shows some manuscripts and interpretations say he is in heaven.

Take your pick. I choose he is in heaven because he said the Kingdom of God was in him. The Kingdom of God was at hand and could be grasped!

The Lord from heaven who was in heaven!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,19:01)

Hi W, Was the Word WITH GOD? Was the Word IN THE FORM OF GOD? Was Christ the LORD from heaven? Of course, it is written. None say he was a part of or an aspect of a multipersonality being called a trinity. God is the Father and the God of Jesus. That is written. Where is trinity written?

NH

You left out, “and the Word was God”.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:27)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:53) Hi W, Do you abandon all need for order and consistency when you accept the trinity faith such that you can pick and choose when God means THE FATHER or a TRINITY GOD? NH What order and consistency are you talking about? Mans order? Mans finite understanding of an Infinite God? Jesus said it is given to us to know the Mysterys of the kingdom! This is done by the Spirit of truth. So if order and consistency goes against the truth, it should be abandoned!

Quite so W.
Scripture says God is the Father.

So no more messing about with syntax to twist scripture and create barriers between God and his innocent children.

When scripture speaks of God, with a few well known exceptions, it means the Father.

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:38)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:57) Hi W, You choose KJV for Jn 3.13 “Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” NASB 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ESV 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” NIV  13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a] Footnotes: John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven NH As it shows some manuscripts and interpretations say he is in heaven. Take your pick. I choose he is in heaven because he said the Kingdom of God was in him. The Kingdom of God was at hand and could be grasped! The Lord from heaven who was in heaven!

Hi W,
Would you prefer the exceptions to support a weak case?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:39)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,19:01) Hi W, Was the Word WITH GOD? Was the Word IN THE FORM OF GOD? Was Christ the LORD from heaven? Of course, it is written. None say he was a part of or an aspect of a multipersonality being called a trinity. God is the Father and the God of Jesus. That is written. Where is trinity written? NH You left out, “and the Word was God”.

Hi W,
The Word was God…….. but not the God he was with.

Now where is trinity written?

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:33)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:54) Hi w, You ask “Jn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. Whos sheep are they NH? Was Jesus a Sheep like us?” Do you not know of the LAMB OF GOD? NH The Lamb of God, is the Good Shepherd of the sheep!

Hi w,
No new revelations there.
He is also the door for the sheep.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,09:51)

Quote I believe that my opening remarks in the first two paragraphs as well as my closing remarks are enough to establish the spirit in which I wrote. If Paul can say, 1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. then I have by no means attained, but I too press on for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ seeking to grow in the knowledge of the True God.   I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. If God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, then Trinitarians and Modalists are worshipping the wrong God. Our sincerity matters little in this regard since God calls us to worship HIM as GOD and no other God.  And how does ascribing worship to the wrong God differ from those of other faiths?  Do they not worship their God(s) in sincerity? That, my friend, is the real question of concern. Cubes Its is interesting to me how you post your response with all of your qoutes and then continue to assert your position without addressing any of my post. You say… Quote I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   Then please take my common scriptures and give me your interpretation and how they fit into your modal, then maybe we can have some serious dialogue based on scripture and facts rather than playing word games and politics. You had said the burden of proof was on you in a previous post. I think the same burden is on each one of us who hold what we believe to be the truth of Gods word. You say… Quote If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. You said it! You say… Quote Fair enough.  Which Jesus?  The three in one Jesus or the only begotten Son of God who worships God? These are the issues, WJ. I question what Jesus you are speaking of! Blessings!

Hi WJ,

Thanks once again for your response.  I am in agreement.
You know what the scriptures say that if you bring an offering to the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, then you are to leave your gifts at the altar and go and try and seek resolution before coming back.

There was no point in delving into scripture without an attempt to clear the air, so to speak.  

Now, if you don't mind, could you kindly refer me to a page(s) where you want me to go back and address the scriptures you presented? The thread is moving fast and I am unable to keep up as I ought but we can begin with your next post.

Regards.

[Cubes]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,12:06)

My wife and I are “One” flesh, but two different persons. Humanity is “One” but, made up of many humans. The Body of Christ is One, but made up of many members. I am Spirit, Soul and Body, but I am one man. An atom is One, but made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons. The universe is One, but made up of billions of planets and star systems. So we see that there are many possibly thousands of examples of “plurality in One”

Hi WJ,

I completely agree with the examples you've used here though they do not serve the Trinity cause.  If all your examples were analyzed, we'd find that not all parts of the groups are equal.  Even Water has a 2:1 ratio of Hydrogen and Oxygen.  I'll add one more, We being many are one body with Christ.  Are we not?

And yet, is Christ not our head?

To hurt one little member of Christ's body is to hurt Christ, remember what he said to Saul on the Road to Demascus?

Act 9:5  And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Did Paul ever actually ever persecute Jesus in person that we know of?  We've only been told that Saul persecuted the FOLLOWERS of Christ.  He admits to the same, never to actually ever having seen or met Christ beforehand, let alone persecute him.

Well, if you would DISagree with my interpretation of this scripture and that Eternal GOD is our Heavenly Father, then why can't you include us in the identity and being of the Trinity, since this is yet another way to prove that we ARE Christ, by the Trinity interpretation of scripture regarding GOD.

You have to stick with your own rules, WJ.  According to your rules, we are literally Christ Jesus!

Recall what Paul said to the Gentiles?  
Rom 11:17   And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18   do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

And also the scripture regarding the potter and the clay?  
Rom 9:20   But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21   Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Since GOD is the begetter of the Son, he is literally the potter and Christ is the clay.  I believe that Father God was in total control of his Word, decision to speak and to beget Christ.  That is what makes him God.  If Christ could have spoken himself into being and begot himself as Messiah and the Son of God, we wouldn't be having this discussion.  We will all be modalists!

Jesus was desired/wanted by the Father, so he beget him.  “To which of the angels did he say….?”  He could have, but chose not to say it to any angel but to the Christ.  GOD is in perfect and total control of whatever HE does.

God desired something, so he spoke!

GOD IS THE FATHER, Not the Son of God and Son of Man.

[Cubes]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2007,19:44)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,09:51) Quote I believe that my opening remarks in the first two paragraphs as well as my closing remarks are enough to establish the spirit in which I wrote. If Paul can say, 1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. then I have by no means attained, but I too press on for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ seeking to grow in the knowledge of the True God.   I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. If God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, then Trinitarians and Modalists are worshipping the wrong God. Our sincerity matters little in this regard since God calls us to worship HIM as GOD and no other God.  And how does ascribing worship to the wrong God differ from those of other faiths?  Do they not worship their God(s) in sincerity? That, my friend, is the real question of concern. Cubes Its is interesting to me how you post your response with all of your qoutes and then continue to assert your position without addressing any of my post. You say… Quote I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   Then please take my common scriptures and give me your interpretation and how they fit into your modal, then maybe we can have some serious dialogue based on scripture and facts rather than playing word games and politics. You had said the burden of proof was on you in a previous post. I think the same burden is on each one of us who hold what we believe to be the truth of Gods word. You say… Quote If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. You said it! You say… Quote Fair enough.  Which Jesus?  The three in one Jesus or the only begotten Son of God who worships God? These are the issues, WJ. I question what Jesus you are speaking of! Blessings! Hi WJ, Thanks once again for your response.  I am in agreement. You know what the scriptures say that if you bring an offering to the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, then you are to leave your gifts at the altar and go and try and seek resolution before coming back. There was no point in delving into scripture without an attempt to clear the air, so to speak.   Now, if you don't mind, could you kindly refer me to a page(s) where you want me to go back and address the scriptures you presented?  The thread is moving fast and I am unable to keep up as I ought but we can begin with your next post.   Regards.

WJ,

For clarification, I do not believe in the Modalism of GOD.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2007,16:40)

Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2007,19:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,09:51) Quote I believe that my opening remarks in the first two paragraphs as well as my closing remarks are enough to establish the spirit in which I wrote. If Paul can say, 1Cr 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. then I have by no means attained, but I too press on for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ seeking to grow in the knowledge of the True God.   I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. If God is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, then Trinitarians and Modalists are worshipping the wrong God. Our sincerity matters little in this regard since God calls us to worship HIM as GOD and no other God.  And how does ascribing worship to the wrong God differ from those of other faiths?  Do they not worship their God(s) in sincerity? That, my friend, is the real question of concern. Cubes Its is interesting to me how you post your response with all of your qoutes and then continue to assert your position without addressing any of my post. You say… Quote I have made no judgments about you or any one else's sincerity to worship God that I can recall.  But I do challenge any assertions made that God is a Trinity based on our common scriptures.   Then please take my common scriptures and give me your interpretation and how they fit into your modal, then maybe we can have some serious dialogue based on scripture and facts rather than playing word games and politics. You had said the burden of proof was on you in a previous post. I think the same burden is on each one of us who hold what we believe to be the truth of Gods word. You say… Quote If God is a Trinity, or modal,  then I am worshiping the wrong God. You said it! You say… Quote Fair enough.  Which Jesus?  The three in one Jesus or the only begotten Son of God who worships God? These are the issues, WJ. I question what Jesus you are speaking of! Blessings! Hi WJ, Thanks once again for your response.  I am in agreement. You know what the scriptures say that if you bring an offering to the altar and remember that your brother has something against you, then you are to leave your gifts at the altar and go and try and seek resolution before coming back. There was no point in delving into scripture without an attempt to clear the air, so to speak.   Now, if you don't mind, could you kindly refer me to a page(s) where you want me to go back and address the scriptures you presented?  The thread is moving fast and I am unable to keep up as I ought but we can begin with your next post.   Regards. WJ, For clarification, I do not believe in the Modalism of GOD.

Cubes

Good! Amen! Me either.

I am busy but will get to your other post.

blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Can you see that promoting nonbiblical teachings is rebellion against the ways of God? Rebellion is the opposite of bowing to God.

Do you want the blessing of Lk 12?

“42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2007,07:58)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:53) Hi W, Do you abandon all need for order and consistency when you accept the trinity faith such that you can pick and choose when God means THE FATHER or a TRINITY GOD? NH What order and consistency are you talking about? Mans order? Mans finite understanding of an Infinite God? Jesus said it is given to us to know the Mysterys of the kingdom! This is done by the Spirit of truth. So if order and consistency goes against the truth, it should be abandoned!   Quite so W. Scripture says God is the Father. So no more messing about with syntax to twist scripture and create barriers between God and his innocent children. When scripture speaks of God, with a few well known exceptions, it means the Father.

NH

There should be no exceptions in the scriptures. Or you have a weak foundation to be sure.

100s of Scholars, Greek and Hebrew experts have brought us the scriptures.

True there may be different interpretations of the scriptures.

But NH what if I said that 1 Cor. 8:6 should be thrown out because it seems to support the Arian theololgy?

I am quite sure that the few exceptions you are talking about support the trinitarian view like Jn 1:1.

Jn 1:1 is enough for me. All the experts agree that John was not a liar.

Maybe you should write you own Bible like the JWs. Then you can change what you want to fit your doctrine.

So you have chosen to build your faith on “Questionable scriptures”.

Please show me which scriptures we should throw out of the Cannon NH.

What credentials do you have to question the 100s of experts?  

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 01 2007,07:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 01 2007,07:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2007,18:57) Hi W, You choose KJV for Jn 3.13 “Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” NASB 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” ESV 13″No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.” NIV  13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[a] Footnotes: John 3:13 Some manuscripts Man, who is in heaven NH As it shows some manuscripts and interpretations say he is in heaven. Take your pick. I choose he is in heaven because he said the Kingdom of God was in him. The Kingdom of God was at hand and could be grasped! The Lord from heaven who was in heaven! Hi W, Would you prefer the exceptions to support a weak case?

NH

How about all of the scriptures. I accept them all, but I dont force them into my belief.

I let the scriptures interpret themselves.

If a scripture dosnt harmonize with the whole, then I pray about it until the Holy Spirit gives me light on it.

You should do the same.

How do you know when to throw out the scriptures NH.

I dont think the Spirit of God is telling you!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2007,01:19)

Hi w, Can you see that promoting nonbiblical teachings is rebellion against the ways of God? Rebellion is the opposite of bowing to God. Do you want the blessing of Lk 12? “42And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.”

NH

LOL. You dont even believe all the scriptures and you have the nerve to accuse me of false teachings and rebellion!

How do you know that the scriptures you quote are true since you have such doubt?

Unbelievable!

[Author]

Posts