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Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 22 2010,13:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 22 2010,08:02) Quote (JustAskin @ Nov. 21 2010,08:48) LU, Was 'Jesus' called 'the Angel of God' in the Old Testament?
Did Jesus deliver the Word of God?
Did God call Jesus, 'His Servant'?
JA,
Yes I believe that He was called the Angel of God in the OT but I don't believe that He was ever of the angelic nature and therefore not one of the angel kind. Angels were called 'men' in the OT but they didn't have human nature, nor were they part of mankind. My point is, just because the angels were called men, that didn't make them men. They appeared as men though. The pre-Jesus may have appeared as an angel but not truly have been an angel.Jesus delivered the word of God and is called the Word of God…two different senses.
Jesus was a servant as a deity Son to a deity Father, always. The Son is perfect.
Think about what perfect means. I think we cannot truly grasp the fullness of it but a perfect Son would always serve His perfect Father.
Greetings Kathi……It is always enlightening to read through the passages chapter and verse….I have to agree with you on several facts that I have overlooked through time…I could't ignore the fact that Lot was refering to the two men that visited as, Lords…And the conversation Abraham had was with God in the personage of a man…The man was indeed the Word in the flesh…as I read further God announced that sarah was to have a child and his name would be Isaac….at the same time Abraham pleaded for Ishmaels' favor and God promised that the seed of both would bring forth great nations,however,his covenant will be with Isaac and from his seed would come the Christ….This is where I go off the track….from these passages I get the sense that the Jesus we know through the Virgin birth was present at these events but was in the capacity of the word and became the Christ….this not to say or deminish his existence from the beginning….Iam convinced that the Bible reveals itself as God sees fit and by design it is meant to confuse and confound wise and learned…
Thanks Ted,
I am glad to agree with you because you truly seem to shoot straight and not play games which is a sign of maturity and that is a welcome relief here and I do know that you understand what I mean from what you said about power plays in the boardroom. That post was very insightful.The two men that go on to see Lot are referred to as angels. see here:
Gen 19:1-2
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.
2 And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant's house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.” They said however, “No, but we shall spend the night in the square.”
NASUThey are called lords and the word for 'lords' is from the Hebrew word 'Adonai' and the Lord that Abraham remained standing before was 'Yahweh' or Jehovah.
adonai:
OT:113 /oda*
'adown (aw-done'); or (shortened) 'adon (aw-done'); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. controller (human or divine)Then there is the verse later in the 19th chapter, v. 25 that speaks of two called 'Yahweh' and I believe one is Yahweh, the Son/Word, and the other is Yahweh, the Father. What do you think:
Gen 19:23-25
23 The sun had risen over the earth when Lot came to Zoar.
24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven,
25 and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
NASUNice to hear from you!
Kathi….. I got it….( Baruch Abba Hashem Adanoi ) Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord….
These are the words of a messianic hymm I have heard several times…LU,
What is it you can't understand that 'Lord' is used to address anyone of standing.
Lot clearly saw that the 'men' were not normal everyday passersby, but men of good nature and of etter standing than himself.It is perfectly natural to call such a persin, 'Lord'. It does not mean he knew them as anything else.
Lot knew what the people were like and could not bear to see two such persons being subjected to abuse such as was normal in Sodom.
It is a thing anyone Godfearing person would do…and Lot was more righteous than anyone else in Sodom.
Latterly, we might say, 'Sirs'.
Lot did not know they were Angels in human form but he could see they were 'godly' men not worthy of exposure to that which Lot knew could occur but the 'men' wished to 'test' Lot, to see how Righteous he was.
Maybe the 'men' had tested others in Sodom…'if you find ten Just men, would you spare Sodom?'.
Clearly, not even five were found?JA: Interesting that Lot would be considered more righteous (various degrees?) than anyone else in Sodom. Shortly after he left Sodom he got super drunk and had sex with both his daughters that produced offspring from both! Our churches today would probably kick him out as a sinner. It could be we have misunderstood what sin is? It may be the most important thing we could search out in the Bible. TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 23 2010,20:20) JA: Interesting that Lot would be considered more righteous (various degrees?) than anyone else in Sodom. Shortly after he left Sodom he got super drunk and had sex with both his daughters that produced offspring from both! Our churches today would probably kick him out as a sinner. It could be we have misunderstood what sin is? It may be the most important thing we could search out in the Bible. TK
Greetings Tim…..The story of LOT and the incestrial relations he had with his daughters is clearly an example of the carnality of man….and speaks to the sin of drunkardness….Now lets examine the motivation of his daughters,and bear in mind this is in no way an excuse of their actions,merely the reasoning for their sin….In the days of Lot women were purposed for procreation first and formost and were to be subject to their husbands….They just witnessed the total destruction of the city they lived in,they witnessed their mother be turned into a pillar of stone…..Having witnessed what they did they felt their purpose in life was tenuous and so in their reasoning they were compeled to full fill their ultimate purpose…..If God can forgive these actions…There should be no spirit filled church that wouldn't be able to do the same…..( To Err is human to forgive is devine )LU,
You seek what is right in front of you.You cannot understand a simple phrase. It was not meant with any hidden point.
Jesus was 'Begotten' as Son of God…and will be so forver, Eternally.
What other meaning are you after from the Fathers?
Begotten Eternally..begotten from eternity? No…Eternity is from whenever it starts until forever…
Scriptures tells us clearly when Jesus was begotten….Romans 1:3-4.
This is the True Son of God who fulfilled that which Adam was originally set to do.
That which was set for the first Man, was accomplished in the second Man.
And that second man 'will be' Eternally begotten as Son of God.
It does not make any sense to say he was previously eternally begotten when:
A) He EMPTIED Himself of his Divinity and became man.
B) He died…How is he still begotten when he emptied himself. If he didn't 'empty himself of his 'begottenship', as you would say, then what else did he not empty himself of? You make him a liar, scriptures a liar, and God a liar…
And if he died…and he did…then how is he 'begotten' when he is dead? Can the dead be 'begotten'?
No, Kathi, when he was RAISED UP again, God said, 'You are my Son….today, I have become your father'…because Jesus, the Christ had fulfilled the greatest act anyone could fulfill and was therefore worthy to be called '[True] Son of God'..and he was, and is, and will be from THEN until ETERNITY…Eternally Begotten.Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 21 2010,15:53) JA,
you ask so many questions, let's start here:Quote Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity?
The literal Son of God with God's own nature would be deity.
He is called:
Mighty God, everlasting Father.
The word was God. John 1:1
The only begotten God. John 1:18
My Lord and my God…Thomas called Him that.
The EXACT representation of God's nature.
The form of God.Quote If Jesus was 'Deity' then he should be worshipped. But God said, Before ME, there was no Diety formed, and After Me also, there shall be none'.
Neither before Him, during, nor after, shall a deity be formed.He is worshiped as the Son of God or as one from God several times and I do worship Him as the Son of God:
Quote And here is a list of passages that show that Jesus is receiving the worship “proskuneo” of others: Matt 2:1-2
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
KJVMatt 2:7-8
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
KJVMatt 2:11-12
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
KJVMatt 8:1-4
When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
KJVMatt 9:18-35
18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples.20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.26 And the fame hereof went abroad into all that land.27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou Son of David, have mercy on us.28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.31 But they, when they were departed, spread abroad his fame in all that country.32 As they went out, behold, they brought to him a dumb man possessed with a devil.33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.34 But the Pharisees said, He casteth out devils through the prince of the devils.35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
KJVMatt 14:26-36
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
34 And when they were gone over, they came into the land of Gennesaret.
35 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
KJVMatt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
KJVMatt 20:20-28
20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them
for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
KJVMatt 28:8-10
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
KJVMatt 28:16-20
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJVMark 5:1-20
5 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.14 And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.16 And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.17 And they began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.20 And he departed, and began to publish in Decapolis how great things Jesus had done for him: and all men did marvel.
KJVLuke 24:44 – 53
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.John 9:30-39
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
KJVHeb 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
KJVIs that not enough proof for you?
When God said there was no deity formed, that is true. The deity of God, the Father is the same as the deity of the Son, not a different form of deity. Like begat like, not like begat not like. The deity of the Son is of the eternal kind, and at one point the Father begat Him in a sense where the Son's deity was outstretched like the sun turning on the ray was like the Father begetting the Son. The Son was always within the Father like the potential ray was always within the sun. By the Father's word, “Let there be Light,” the perfect nativity of the Son was produced as far as Tertullian and I see it.
Quote So, how was Jesus a deity?
As an only begotten Son of God.Quote And when he Emptied himself, hewas fully 'MAN, not a God'.
We aren't given specifics. He became flesh and was made in the appearance as a man, He felt suffering and pain and hunger and tiredness etc. but never did He nor could He stop being deity, He handicapped Himself by emptying Himself of whatever was necessary to become an infant with the memory of an infant. During His life in the flesh, He grew in wisdom as God identified Him and taught Him and gave Him all things. No one can deny their past history, He was who God created the world through and much later He became like the created man that He took part in creating. He never stopped being the deity that was involved i
n creation, He just handicapped Himself to become a man too.Quote Then when he was raised up again, was he again a God?? He never stopped being deity, that would be impossible.
Quote Remember this…Jesus was Raised to a HIGHER Position to that which he left…..
You ought to make a distinction between the Pre-Jesus who was not man and the Jesus who was man and deity. The Pre-Jesus, some call Him 'the Word,' was the Outstretched Arm of God as God's only Son, the Son of God. The one that is exalted after dying is the Son of God/Son of Man, the Messiah. He receives the office of High Priest and Mediator because of His victory over sin. Before creation the Son had no need to be in the position of a High Priest and Mediator because there were no people. Before coming in the flesh, the Son did not hold those positions, that doesn't make Him less deity. After the resurrection He received those positions. Those positions weren't available before coming as a man.Quote How can there be TWO Complete Rulers in Heaven? And if Jesus was 'STILL' God when he was MAN on earth, LU, you open up a whole new can of worms. God's rule is through the Son. There is one Ruler, the Father, and the one He does that ruling through who in a sense can be considered a ruler too, the Son expressing the one rule of the Father.
Maybe it would help to realize there are three distinctions of God, the Father who is the one true God, and His Son who is the one true 'God of/from God,' and the Spirit of God. All three distinctions cooperate to accomplish the fullness of deity. Some call this a Godhead. The Father is distinct, the Son is distinct, and the Spirit is distinct although, imo is not a person like the other two but maybe is the inner-person of the Father. Our spirit is our 'inner-person.'
If you need specific scriptural references let me know but I think you probably can figure them out.
JA,
You are running over with questions and you have not discussed the answers I gave you. I will try to keep this limited to one question at a time. Here is your question and my answer. What do you agree with or disagree with about it?JA,
you ask so many questions, let's start here:
Quote
Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity?The literal Son of God with God's own nature would be deity.
He is called:
Mighty God, everlasting Father.
The word was God. John 1:1
The only begotten God. John 1:18
My Lord and my God…Thomas called Him that.
The EXACT representation of God's nature.
The form of God.JA,
you said:
Quote Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity? I said:
The literal Son of God with God's own nature would be deity.
He is called:
Mighty God, everlasting Father.
The word was God. John 1:1
The only begotten God. John 1:18
My Lord and my God…Thomas called Him that.
The EXACT representation of God's nature.
The form of God.So…what do you say, JA?
Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 23 2010,21:48) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 23 2010,20:20) JA: Interesting that Lot would be considered more righteous (various degrees?) than anyone else in Sodom. Shortly after he left Sodom he got super drunk and had sex with both his daughters that produced offspring from both! Our churches today would probably kick him out as a sinner. It could be we have misunderstood what sin is? It may be the most important thing we could search out in the Bible. TK
Greetings Tim…..The story of LOT and the incestrial relations he had with his daughters is clearly an example of the carnality of man….and speaks to the sin of drunkardness….Now lets examine the motivation of his daughters,and bear in mind this is in no way an excuse of their actions,merely the reasoning for their sin….In the days of Lot women were purposed for procreation first and formost and were to be subject to their husbands….They just witnessed the total destruction of the city they lived in,they witnessed their mother be turned into a pillar of stone…..Having witnessed what they did they felt their purpose in life was tenuous and so in their reasoning they were compeled to full fill their ultimate purpose…..If God can forgive these actions…There should be no spirit filled church that wouldn't be able to do the same…..( To Err is human to forgive is devine )
theodore: It is from love and respect that I respond and in no way do my responses have any intention toward you or anyone else. I feel my war is against untruth/religion about God. Believing in sin denies or blocks the power of God.If drunkenness were a sin or caused sin then at the wedding in cana where Jesus made over a hundred gallons of wine after they were well drunk (intoxicated) it would surly have been considered a sin. It is not a sin.
If in truth, with spirit understanding, a man is drunk with error, or mans beliefs about God/religion, or is misguided in thinking or not knowing the truth of God, lost in darkness, like a drunk man, staggering to find his way to God, that drunkeness is separation of God in mind. Sin is error of thought.
Mankind has made up many rules, rituals and religious beliefs and so established them in their minds that they actually believe that if they do certain things God leaves them.
If people believe in any form of separation from God or any unclean thing they have done, or anything of any kind that could possibly impare, hinder, taint or block the love of God
flowing freely then they cause their own blockage through self-judgment, self-condemnation for themselves or for others.
Love is the annointing power of God. All powerful healing
works are done by the annointing of God which cannot work through an unclean, sinful mind/heart.If one believes it, he is cleansed of sin and made perfect for the power works of God through the work of Jesus. The disciples ask Jesus, what must we do to work the works of God….and Jesus answered with, this is the work of God….THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHO IS SENT! Believe in what he accomplished. Jesus truth united God/Man to their original union/communion together.
No buildings, no laws, no rituals, no sacrifices, no new moons or sabbaths, no religion, just personal union, one with one, God/Man. The only way to saparate God/Man is in the mind of the man. In truth it can't be done. Yet if a man believes a lie of separation, probably due to sin, then to him he is separated and lost. God bless. TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 25 2010,21:00) Quote (theodorej @ Nov. 23 2010,21:48) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 23 2010,20:20) JA: Interesting that Lot would be considered more righteous (various degrees?) than anyone else in Sodom. Shortly after he left Sodom he got super drunk and had sex with both his daughters that produced offspring from both! Our churches today would probably kick him out as a sinner. It could be we have misunderstood what sin is? It may be the most important thing we could search out in the Bible. TK
Greetings Tim…..The story of LOT and the incestrial relations he had with his daughters is clearly an example of the carnality of man….and speaks to the sin of drunkardness….Now lets examine the motivation of his daughters,and bear in mind this is in no way an excuse of their actions,merely the reasoning for their sin….In the days of Lot women were purposed for procreation first and formost and were to be subject to their husbands….They just witnessed the total destruction of the city they lived in,they witnessed their mother be turned into a pillar of stone…..Having witnessed what they did they felt their purpose in life was tenuous and so in their reasoning they were compeled to full fill their ultimate purpose…..If God can forgive these actions…There should be no spirit filled church that wouldn't be able to do the same…..( To Err is human to forgive is devine )
theodore: It is from love and respect that I respond and in no way do my responses have any intention toward you or anyone else. I feel my war is against untruth/religion about God. Believing in sin denies or blocks the power of God.If drunkenness were a sin or caused sin then at the wedding in cana where Jesus made over a hundred gallons of wine after they were well drunk (intoxicated) it would surly have been considered a sin. It is not a sin.
If in truth, with spirit understanding, a man is drunk with error, or mans beliefs about God/religion, or is misguided in thinking or not knowing the truth of God, lost in darkness, like a drunk man, staggering to find his way to God, that drunkeness is separation of God in mind. Sin is error of thought.
Mankind has made up many rules, rituals and religious beliefs and so established them in their minds that they actually believe that if they do certain things God leaves them.
If people believe in any form of separation from God or any unclean thing they have done, or anything of any kind that could possibly impare, hinder, taint or block the love of God
flowing freely then they cause their own blockage through self-judgment, self-condemnation for themselves or for others.
Love is the annointing power of God. All powerful healing
works are done by the annointing of God which cannot work through an unclean, sinful mind/heart.If one believes it, he is cleansed of sin and made perfect for the power works of God through the work of Jesus. The disciples ask Jesus, what must we do to work the works of God….and Jesus answered with, this is the work of God….THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHO IS SENT! Believe in what he accomplished. Jesus truth united God/Man to their original union/communion together.
No buildings, no laws, no rituals, no sacrifices, no new moons or sabbaths, no religion, just personal union, one with one, God/Man. The only way to saparate God/Man is in the mind of the man. In truth it can't be done. Yet if a man believes a lie of separation, probably due to sin, then to him he is separated and lost. God bless. TK
Greetings Tim…..I find your dialogue informative and take no offense to the truth, in this case as always, the things you hold to be true….IMO…Lot was the adult among the threesome,had he not succumb to drink he would not have allowed the event to happen as for he was a rightous man….I have been known to have a drink on many an occasion and enjoyed it….One of the purposes of wine is to make the heart of the man merry…At cana the comment to the host was that they saved the best wine for last and Iam sure it was quite a party….I love to party,please don't think you have offended me ….Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 25 2010,12:38) JA, you said:
Quote Where, for instance, does it say that Jesus was deity? I said:
The literal Son of God with God's own nature would be deity.
He is called:
Mighty God, everlasting Father.
The word was God. John 1:1
The only begotten God. John 1:18
My Lord and my God…Thomas called Him that.
The EXACT representation of God's nature.
The form of God.So…what do you say, JA?
KathiThe “nature” of God is spirit, that is the image God has created his Son in, so are the rest of the angels, they are spirit too, but, they were created “through” the Son, that however doesn't make the son or the angels deities.
To be a deity means, you are immortal, have always existed; that means, Jesus could not have died for us, nor could he have been begotten.
This is what Peter said to the saints.2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “”divine nature””, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And this is what Jesus said.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he “”given to the Son”” to have life in himself;
To have life in himself, meaning, immortality. I think this shows, the the Son did not have immortality before he came to earth.
Yes, Jesus is a mighty God, that is what the word god means.
And through whom is it that we can receive everlasting life? Jesus; and who do we call father? is it not the one who gave us life?And the “word”, Jesus, was a mighty one.
“””The only begotten God. John 1:18″”” This is not how it is written.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.Accuracy has more of an impact.
Yes, Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God, mighty one. Is he not our mighty one also? the one that won the battle over death for us?
Georg
Ps. eternally begotten means, when God beget his son, Jesus, he was to live for ever with God; so were the angels, but as we know, some of them sinned and will not live for ever.
I do not agree with you Georg. I do not think that the nature of God is spirit. The nature of God is much more. If His nature was spirit then the angels and God would have the same nature.
The nature of God is a divine nature (See 2 Pet 1:4 which you put up in your post above.) 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “”divine nature””, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The nature of angels is angelic nature.
The nature of men is human nature.
Georg,
you said
Quote
“””The only begotten God. John 1:18″”” This is not how it is written.
Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.You have to do some more studying because it is translated as God in some Bibles and the word, 'son' does not appear in the original language in the earliest manuscripts. You might read the NET notes on this verse. It explains that the word should not be 'son' but God/god.
Look at these translations and you will not see the word 'son' anywhere.
New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
New Living Translation (©2007)
No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart. He has revealed God to us.English Standard Version (©2001)
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.New American Standard Bible (©1995)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.International Standard Version (©2008)
No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him.You never seem to acknowledge that Georg. Of course I believe that the NASB has it right and that word 'monogenes' which is the Greek word for 'only begotten' has been discussed in several topics.
Georg,
you said:
Quote Ps. eternally begotten means, when God beget his son, Jesus, he was to live for ever with God; so were the angels, but as we know, some of them sinned and will not live for ever. Eternally begotten has different meanings even among the early church fathers and you can review this thread to see that. I can certainly agree with the term if it means that during eternity, the Son was begotten, thus eternally begotten as opposed to being begotten in time. I don't think it would make any sense to say that Jesus was the only eternally begotten Son if it simply meant that Jesus was to live for ever with God once He was begotten. All of us were eternally begotten then because once we get begotten we own the promise of eternal life with the Father. That would take away the significance of the Son being an ONLY eternally begotten Son. We are begotten in time by adoption and Jesus was begotten in eternity before time began in a literal way whatever way that God would literally have an offspring. We don't have that specific information.
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 02 2010,19:04) I do not agree with you Georg. I do not think that the nature of God is spirit. The nature of God is much more. If His nature was spirit then the angels and God would have the same nature. The nature of God is a divine nature (See 2 Pet 1:4 which you put up in your post above.) 2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the “”divine nature””, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
The nature of angels is angelic nature.
The nature of men is human nature.
Kathiyou like to be in opposition to Gods word is it??
Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.KJV
JN 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”ASVPierre
Pierre,
What I said does not oppose scripture.Do you think that God and angels have the same nature?
If you think that 'spirit' represents nature, then you have to say that God and angels all have the same nature and that is not to be found true.
Kathi,
Can you read John 1:18 and tell me what it means?
I mean, is John talking of 'preJesus', Jesus as preDeath Man, or postDeath Spirit-Man?I don't think any of the things you mention to me declare Jesus as Deity.
Deity means '[a] God', and Jesus is not '[a] God', for there is only One God, Jehovah, Almighty God.
Before we get into 'definitions', i mean that Jesus is not 'Almighty God', nor any other kind of 'Immortal God' in the style of mythology.
Scriptures says Jesus 'WILL BE CALLED' 'Mighty God'.Is it ok to read English in context…?
If someone Will be [called] something, is it not clear and apparent that they are, then, currently NOT that thing yet??
And, besides, 'Mighty God', is an interpretation, it is just as equal to say 'Hero', 'Powerful Person'…in no way does it imply 'God' as in 'Almighty God'….did you not read where Jesus himself says, 'What of it?? Did God himself not call them 'gods' unto whom the word of God came'? '
I said to you long ago that you see Jesus as a your own glorified son and feel the need to make him more than he is. To make him 'as God' is to bring God down, for Jesus on earth, is MAN, and after death is Man in Spirit. And God, is not MAN.
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