Eternally begotten

Participant

all

this was Jesus forecast of what was to follow soon;Jn 9:4 As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.

this would be after the dead of all the apostles; even before they died many were going astray with there own little views just like today ,or just like here on HN ,they do not understand why you have to stick to the written word,many here did not study the scriptures and believe them to be all true ,with that base, go figure what the outcome will be .

even some have been so brainwashed by religion leaders they still spin and believe that they have understanding.

some have the believe that they have found the light source in wish they recieve new light ,

this shows the power that was alive then and it still alive today,

the angels are still at work and separate the sheep from the rest of the herd,Christ knows his sheep ,

can you answer that question ,why does Christ know his sheep what do they have that the others do not have

Pierre

November 3, 2010 at 10:23 am#222923

Baker

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 03 2010,13:47)

Irene,
you said:

Quote

kathi! I only know that the Catholic Creed says All three Father Son and Holy Ghost..The creed also is a Catholic creed, so they believe in the trinity, so I have no idea what you are talking about….The creed says all three and that is why it is the trinity. I don't know how far back you are talking about the early fore Fathers. It was in the third century when Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian came up with the trinity. And after three centuries of bloody and brutal persecution of the first Christians, it was Constantine who stopped all persecution and made the Universal Roman Church the Church of the land…..Out of it the Roman Catholic Church was formed. I really don't think that before the third century that any fore Fathers preached the word of God….most died a horrible death….i really would not believe any thing you can get over the Internet or were ever you got those Articles….. .Peace and Love Irene

1 Peter

The Nicene Creed names all three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and so does the Bible, soooooo?

1Pe 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father by being set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling 1 with Jesus Christ’s blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure!

Quote

I really don't think that before the third century that any fore Fathers preached the word of God….most died a horrible death….i really would not believe any thing you can get over the Internet or were ever you got those Articles…..

And you know that NO forefathers preached the word of God because how? Do you know anyone that preached the word of God in the first or second century, Irene? According to you, when did people start preaching the word of God?

Do you realize that the horrible deaths that many forefathers died was because the pagan government did not like what they were preaching much like why the apostles died horrible deaths. Do you know what a martyr is Irene.

Kathi! . None of the l Christians worship openly, or they would die. And Millions did die…..Also as far as the creed is concerned, I said it is a Catholic creed, and they believe in the trinity,which is also listed in the creed by saying Father Son and Holy Ghost……I was in that Church I should know, where You? No…….And you want to tell me what they did and still do……
You quoting 1 Peter, did you also know that the Christians did not read any Books of the Bible, there was no Bible then. Most also were illiterate…… The Apostles wrote the letters, which later the Catholic Monks took and put them into Books….. And all of the Apostles also died a horrible death, except for John, who was exiled to the Island of Petmus( I don't know if I spelled that right)where He wrote Revelation……When I said that the fore Fathers did not
preach the word if God, I meant they did not do it openly…..they all met underground……In the first three centuries there was no organized Church.. And yes, I know what Martyr is. In fact there is a good Book out about the Martyrs……And about the Two Babylonians…….good Book to read too……

November 4, 2010 at 5:33 am#223062

Participant

Irene,
I am not reading what the early church fathers preached in sermons but instead, I am reading their writings. They mentioned the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit many times and so does the Bible, not always side by side but the three names are throughout the NT. That fact alone doesn't equal the trinity doctrine, does it?

Also, you said that the Nicene Creed is a Catholic creed but it is also a Protestant Creed which I have been a part of all my life, so yes, I should know about the creed even though I was never Catholic.

You make it sound like mentioning the three names equals the trinity doctrine and there is much more to it than that. Compare the difference between these three creeds, the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed I agree with, the Athanasian Creed I question where they came up with some of it:

APOSTLES' CREED

1.I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2.And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3.Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4.Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5.The third day he rose again from the dead:

6.He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7.From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8.I believe in the Holy Ghost

9.I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10.The forgiveness of sins:

11.The resurrection of the body:

12.And the life everlasting. Amen.

NICENE CREED

325 A.D.

EARLY CHURCH FATHERS

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets. And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

ATHANASIAN CREED

1.Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;2.Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.3.And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;4.Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.5.For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.6.But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.7.Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.8.The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.9.The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.10.The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.11.And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.12.As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.13.So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.14.And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.15.So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;16.And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.17.So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;18.And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.19.For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;20.So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.21.The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.22.The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.23.The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.24.So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.25.And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.26.But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.27.So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.28.He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.29.Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.30.For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.31.God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.32.Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.33.Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.34.Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.35.One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.36.One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.37.For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;38.Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;39.He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;40.From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.41.At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;42.and shall give account of their own works.43.And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.44.This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

November 4, 2010 at 9:57 am#223087

Participant

Kathi

are you believing in this creed??

APOSTLES' CREED

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:

4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:

5. The third day he rose again from the dead:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:

7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:

8. I believe in the Holy Ghost

9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:

10. The forgiveness of sins:

11. The resurrection of the body:

12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

is this creed better as the one of the church or are they the same ?

Pierre

November 4, 2010 at 3:25 pm#223123

Participant

Pierre,
I agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. They are both creeds in the Protestant churches that I have gone to.

November 4, 2010 at 5:43 pm#223135

Baker

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,02:25)

Pierre,
I agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. They are both creeds in the Protestant churches that I have gone to.

Yes, and all believe in the trinity……They are no better then the Catholic Church. All Churches are Splinter groups of the Catholic Church. All that are today came out of the Roman Universal Church…Martin Luther was the first one, and others followed….
If you Kathi believe in the creed, you too worship the trinity….

Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Both creeds were created by men. At the first in

AD 325 Constantine calls the first ecumenical council at Nicaea.

and much, much more. They changed the Sabbath to Sunday. All Holy Days became Holidays, like Christmas and Easter.
Christmas is around the corner and with all the glamor and glider.
Yet Christ was not born on Dec. 25….

You don't believe me do you? When I say that the creed started in the Catholic Church. And all came out of that Church….Just because the creed does not say trinity, does not, mean that it is not now……..When you asked a Catholic who their first Pope was, they will say to you it was Peter……But at that time there was no organized Church. All Christians went underground to worship God….and you know the rest…..

Peace Irene

November 4, 2010 at 7:01 pm#223138

Participant

Irene,
If you want to say that I worship a trinity because I worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit then I worship a trinity but I do not worship a trinity doctrine which goes beyond acknowledging worship to the Father, the Son and to the Holy Spirit. It is the way the Athanasian Creed defines the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit that I do not find all of what is said in that creed as being scriptural. Much of it is scriptural and the rest, I haven't got peace about being scriptural.

I would bet that most people who consider themselves as trinitarians would not be able to tell you what is written in the Athanasian Creed and so how do we know that they would agree with all of it or not?

I will make a new topic regarding the Apostle's Creed and another one regarding the Nicene Creed and we can discuss it thought by thought…how about that? Let's see what we agree with and what we do not and then see if we can defend our beliefs. OK?

November 4, 2010 at 7:25 pm#223140

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,22:06)

They both had valid points. Much like HN. We will probably see a new creed in our lifetime that takes 'only begotten' out of it entirely. This will further the evolution away from the original intent as I see it.

Kathi

Your point above shows bias, because the creeds didn't come until the third century. So there was an evolution from the orginal Apostles beliefs until then. You have chosen to stop there, when the church went further in clarifying their beliefs.

There is no contradiction in any of the creeds, but the contradiction comes when you accept one and not all because of your own interpretation of the word begotten.

As Irene has pointed out they were Trinitarians who believed in the worship of “One true God” who were of “One essence” not dividing the substance.

Do you believe they worshipped 2 or 3 Gods, or divine beings Kathi?

How can you claim that Jesus is part of the One God that is to be worshipped when you claim they are two beings?

Do you see the problem you have here? No early Father worshipped two “Gods”.

November 4, 2010 at 7:30 pm#223141

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2010,14:01)

If you want to say that I worship a trinity because I worship the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit then I worship a trinity but I do not worship a trinity doctrine which goes beyond acknowledging worship to the Father, the Son and to the Holy Spirit.

Kathi

Ah, but you do go beyond scripture for you worship “2 Gods” and then the Holy Spirit. This is nothing less than Polytheism no matter how you cut it.

It is idolatry to worship anything or anyone but the “One True God”, do you agree?

November 4, 2010 at 7:46 pm#223142

Participant

Keith,
I posted a quote from a church father a while back explaining how, when speaking of both the Father and the Son, you would specify one as God and one as Lord so as to not confuse to say there are two Gods or two Lords. Even though each was understood to be both called God and Lord. You agreed with that explanation, do you remember where I put that? I think it was in the procreation thread. Maybe I can find it. Wanna race to find it?

November 4, 2010 at 7:57 pm#223143

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html

Participant

Yeah, I win just kidding…it wasn't so hard to find after all.

Quote

And this is not all, but there is another remark to make: that if you say, “Because it is said ‘One God,’ therefore the word God doth not apply to the Son;” observe that the same holds of the Son also. For the Son also is called “One Lord,” yet we do not maintain that therefore the term Lord applies to Him alone. So then, the same force which the expression “One” has, applied to the Son, it has also, applied to the Father. And as the Father is not thrust out from being the Lord, in the same sense as the Son is the Lord, because He, the Son, is spoken of as one Lord; so neither does it cast out the Son from being God, in the same sense as the Father is God, because the Father is styled One God.

November 4, 2010 at 8:10 pm#223144

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2010,14:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,22:06)

Kathi

There is no contradiction in any of the creeds, but the contradiction comes when you accept one and not all because of your own interpretation of the word begotten.

As Irene has pointed out they were Trinitarians who believed in the worship of “One true God” who were of “One essence” not dividing the substance.

Do you believe they worshipped 2 or 3 Gods, or divine beings Kathi?

How can you claim that Jesus is part of the One God that is to be worshipped when you claim they are two beings?

Do you see the problem you have here? No early Father worshipped two “Gods”.

Keith,

Quote

There is no contradiction in any of the creeds, but the contradiction comes when you accept one and not all because of your own interpretation of the word begotten.

You say that my interpretation of the word 'begotten' is not inline with the intent of the creed? I disagree. I believe that it is your interpretation of the word 'begotten' that is not inline with the intent of the creed. The early church did not teach of a predesignated begetting to take place in the future in time, in Mary, but a begetting which took place before the ages in the perfect tense, not a future tense nor in an ongoing tense. The Nicene Creed also speaks of a birth in Mary. It teaches both times of a coming into existence. The early church father's taught of a begetting that brought an offspring, a literal Son.

November 4, 2010 at 8:13 pm#223145

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,09:25)

Pierre,
I agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. They are both creeds in the Protestant churches that I have gone to.

kathi

well you have been ,accepting the catholic creeds raped in a tender rapping paper with acceptable small truths but with one of its abomination as well the trinity,i guess no one caches people
without truth in it ,the devil way.

and Constantine is the Antichrist,he did a good job did he?yes he still trapping people like you in his web.

Pierre

November 4, 2010 at 8:31 pm#223146

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html

Participant

Here is more of what Chrysostom says about there being one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ;

[5.] Ver. 5. “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, as there are gods many and lords many; yet to us there is one God, the Father, of Whom are all things, and we unto Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” Since he had said, that “an idol is nothing” and that “there is no other God;” and yet there were idols and there were those that were called gods; that he might not seem to be contradicting plain facts, he goes on to say, “For though there be that are called gods, as indeed there are;” not absolutely, “there are;” but, “called,” not in reality having this but in name: “be it in heaven or on earth:—in heaven,” meaning the sun and the moon and the remainder of the choir of stars; for these too the Greeks worshipped: but upon the earth demons, and all those who had been made gods of men:—“yet to us there is One God, the Father.” In the first instance having expressed it without the word “Father,” and said, “there is no God but one,” he now adds this also, when he had utterly cast out the others.
Next, he adduces what indeed is the greatest token of divinity; “of Whom are all things.” For this implies also that those others are not gods. For it is said (Jer. x. 11.), “Let the gods who made not the heaven and the earth perish.” Then he subjoins what is not less than this, “and we unto Him.” For when he saith, “of Whom are all things,” he means the creation and the bringing of things out of nothing into existence. But when he saith, “and we unto Him,” he speaks of the word of faith and mutual
114
appropriation (οἰκειώσεως), as also he said before (1 Cor. i. 30.), “but of Him are ye also in Christ Jesus.” In two ways we are of Him, by being made when we were not, and by being made believers. For this also is a creation: a thing which he also declares elsewhere; (Ephes. ii. 15.) “that He might create in Himself of the twain one new man.”
“And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things, and we through Him.” And in regard to Christ again, we must conceive of this in like manner. For through Him the race of men was both produced out of nothing into existence, and returned from error to truth. So that as to the phrase “of Whom,” it is not to be understood apart from Christ. For of Him, through Christ, were we created.
[6.] Nor yet, if you observe, hath he distributed the names as if belonging exclusively, assigning to the Son the name Lord, and to the Father, God. For the Scripture useth also often to interchange them; as when it saith, (Ps. cx. 1.) “The Lord saith unto My Lord;” and again, (Ps. lxv. 8.) “Wherefore God Thy God hath appointed Thee;” and, (Rom. ix. 5.) “Of Whom is Christ according to the flesh, Who is God over all.” And in many instances you may see these names changing their places. Besides, if they were allotted to each nature severally, and if the Son were not God, and God as the Father, yet continuing a Son: after saying, “but to us there is but One God,” it would have been superfluous, his adding the word “Father,” with a view to declare the Unbegotten. For the word of God was sufficient to explain this, if it were such as to denote Him only.
And this is not all, but there is another remark to make: that if you say, “Because it is said ‘One God,’ therefore the word God doth not apply to the Son;” observe that the same holds of the Son also. For the Son also is called “One Lord,” yet we do not maintain that therefore the term Lord applies to Him alone. So then, the same force which the expression “One” has, applied to the Son, it has also, applied to the Father. And as the Father is not thrust out from being the Lord, in the same sense as the Son is the Lord, because He, the Son, is spoken of as one Lord; so neither does it cast out the Son from being God, in the same sense as the Father is God, because the Father is styled One God.
[7.] Now if any were to say, “Why did he make no mention of the Spirit?” our answer might be this: His argument was with idolaters, and the contention was about “gods many and lords many.” And this is why, having called the Father, God, he calls the Son, Lord. If now he ventured not to call the Father Lord together with the Son, lest they might suspect him to be speaking of two Lords; nor yet the Son, God, with the Father, lest he might be supposed to speak of two Gods: why marvel at his not having mentioned the Spirit? His contest was, so far, with the Gentiles: his point, to signify that with us there is no plurality of Gods. Wherefore he keeps hold continually of this word, “One;” saying, “There is no God but One; and, to us there is One God, and One Lord.” From which it is plain, that to spare the weakness of the hearers he used this mode of explanation, and for this reason made no mention at all of the Spirit. For if it be not this, neither ought he to make mention of the Spirit elsewhere, nor to join Him with the Father and the Son. For if He be rejected from the Father and Son, much more ought He not to be put in the same rank with them in the matter of Baptism; where most especially the dignity of the Godhead appears and gifts are bestowed which pertain to God alone to afford. Thus then I have assigned the cause why in this place He is passed over in silence. Now do thou if this be not the true reason, tell me, why He is ranked with Them in Baptism? But thou canst not give any other reason but His being of equal honor. At any rate, when he has no such constraint upon him, he puts Him in the same rank, saying thus: (2 Cor. xiii. 14.) “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God and the Father,9494 καὶ Πατρος, om. in rec. text. and the fellowship of the Holy Ghost, be with you all:” and again, (ch. xii. 4.) “There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit: and there are diversities of administrations, but the same Lord; and there are diversities of workings but the same God.” But because now his speech was with Greeks and the weaker sort of the converts from among Greeks, for this reason he husbands it (ταμιεύεται) so far. And this is what the prophets do in regard of the Son; no where making mention of Him plainly because of the infirmity of the hearers.

November 4, 2010 at 8:39 pm#223148

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2010,15:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,09:25)

Pierre,
I agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. They are both creeds in the Protestant churches that I have gone to.

kathi

and Constantine is the Antichrist,he did a good job did he?yes he still trapping people like you in his web.

Pierre

Pierre,
Why do you take the role of the Accuser of the Brethren when you disagree?

Was 'Accuser of the Brethren' listed among the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Nope.

“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

The Accuser of the Brethren would get his gift of being an Accuser of the Brethren from satan, not the Holy Spirit.

November 4, 2010 at 9:33 pm#223153

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2010,14:57)

Yeah, I win

just kidding…it wasn't so hard to find after all.

Quote

Kathi

Win what? I never said there was total agreement of the Fathers. I said that those who wrote the creeds were Trinitarian and believed in worshipping only “One God” and not dividing the substance.

Sure you will have disagreement among the Fathers because some of them were Arians or simi-Arian but history shows that the final rejection of the Arius doctrines was the Athanasian Creed. That was the final creed and blow to the damnable heresies of Arius and his followers.

The word begotten in the Athanasian creed cannot mean what you say because in the context it clearly says that Jesus is eternally God, one being with the Father. Some called it “eternal generation”, the point being they did not believe Jesus had a beginning from eternity and most Trinitarians to this day do not.

And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords.

To say Jesus is another being from God is to divide the essence.

Do you worship “One True God” or 2 Kathi?

November 4, 2010 at 9:36 pm#223155

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2010,15:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 04 2010,14:25)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 02 2010,22:06)

Kathi

There is no contradiction in any of the creeds, but the contradiction comes when you accept one and not all because of your own interpretation of the word begotten.

As Irene has pointed out they were Trinitarians who believed in the worship of “One true God” who were of “One essence” not dividing the substance.

Do you believe they worshipped 2 or 3 Gods, or divine beings Kathi?

How can you claim that Jesus is part of the One God that is to be worshipped when you claim they are two beings?

Do you see the problem you have here? No early Father worshipped two “Gods”.

Keith,

Quote

There is no contradiction in any of the creeds, but the contradiction comes when you accept one and not all because of your own interpretation of the word begotten.

Kathi

Please read the entire Athanasian Creed and tell me if you read where Jesus had a beginning.

Begotten does not always mean procreation and you know this. I have pointed out many quotes that you have posted of the early Fathers to support you and yet they clearly taught Jesus was with the Father always!

November 4, 2010 at 9:55 pm#223157

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxi.html

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 04 2010,14:57)

Yeah, I win

just kidding…it wasn't so hard to find after all.

Quote

Why do you insist that they taught Polytheism?

Kathi

You see, this is what I am talking about. You quote Chrysostom and distort his meaning for he also wrote…

St. Chrysostom 347-407

“What then do I say? THAT THIS FIRST “WAS,” APPLIED TO “THE WORD,” IS ONLY INDICATIVE OF HIS ETERNAL BEING, (for “In the beginning,” he saith, “was the Word,”) and that the second “was,” (“and the Word was with God,”) denotes His relative Being. For since to be eternal and without beginning is most peculiar to God, this he puts first; and then, lest any one hearing that He was “in the beginning,” should assert, that He was “unbegotten” also, he immediately remedies this by saying, before he declares what He was, that He was “with God.” AND HE HAS PREVENTED ANY ONE FROM SUPPOSING, “that this “Word” is simply such a one as is either UTTERED προφορικὸν. or CONCEIVED, ἐ νδιάθετον. by the addition, as I beforesaid, of the article, as well as by this second expression. For he does not say, was “in God,” but was “with God”: declaring to us His eternity as to person.5151 ὑ πόστασιν. Then, as he advances, he has more clearly revealed it, by adding, that this “Word” also “was God.” Source

St. Chrysostom 347-407

For this, as I before said, he has shown by the term “Word.” As therefore the expression, ““In the beginning was the Word,” shows His Eternity, so “was in the beginning with God,” has declared to us His Co-eternity. For that you may not, when you hear “In the beginning was the Word,” suppose Him to be Eternal, and “yet imagine the life of 17 the Father to differ from His by some interval and longer duration, and so assign a BEGINING to the Only-Begotten, he adds, “was in the beginning with God”; so eternally even as the Father Himself, for the Father was never without the Word, but He was always God with God, yet Each in His proper Person. Source

You do see that don't you Kathi? I win…. Just kidding!

November 4, 2010 at 10:32 pm#223169

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,14:39)

Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 04 2010,15:13)

Quote (Lightenup @ Nov. 05 2010,09:25)

Pierre,
I agree with the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. They are both creeds in the Protestant churches that I have gone to.

kathi

and Constantine is the Antichrist,he did a good job did he?yes he still trapping people like you in his web.

Pierre

Pierre,
Why do you take the role of the Accuser of the Brethren when you disagree?

Was 'Accuser of the Brethren' listed among the gifts of the Holy Spirit? Nope.

The Accuser of the Brethren would get his gift of being an Accuser of the Brethren from satan, not the Holy Spirit.

Kathi

if i accuse you with lies and untruth in relation to scriptures please correct me,

but if it is concern your views and say that those creeds are in accord with scriptures then accept my wake up call.

like i told you before i have study all those creeds,they contain part of truth and part of lies,in a deceit full way.

you try hard to change Christ view and the apostles views,
by bringing those false teachings up from the dead.

it seems that you do not believe in Christ spirit and believe that God is dead.

if not so, why then are you trying to bring back from the dead those creeds,is God no longer with us that we have to rely on men that came to live in the apostasy and supported who are dead for 1700 years ???they were attached to the Antichrist.

it is your views that are in conflict with scriptures and that is what you cannot swallow wen we tell you.

Pierre

November 4, 2010 at 10:39 pm#223172