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From the Institute for Creation Research, Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. had this to say about 'eternally begotten:'
Quote Eternally Begotten
He is not just the only begotten Son of the Father, for He is also the eternally begotten Son of the Father. He is eternally “in His bosom,” yet always “going forth” to “declare” the Father–once as the creating Word, occasionally in pre-incarnate theophanies, also through the Holy Spirit conveying God's written Word (which had been “eternally settled in heaven” [Psalm 119:89]) down to man through divinely chosen prophets, then ultimately appearing as the incarnate Word to live forever as the God/man.
The doctrine of “eternal generation” was what the older theologians called this great truth. He did not become the only Son by His virgin birth. He was the only begotten Son from eternity, “set up from everlasting” (Proverbs 8:23).Dennison or someone that can read Greek,
I found the Nicene Creed in the Greek:http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm
I would like to know what word/words were translated as eternally begotten. I am guessing that 'begotten before the ages' is a more accurate translation. I know some Greek but I depend on an interlinear and a morphological study
Can anyone help with this? Thanks!
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,11:21) From the Institute for Creation Research, Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. had this to say about 'eternally begotten:' Quote Eternally Begotten
He is not just the only begotten Son of the Father, for He is also the eternally begotten Son of the Father. He is eternally “in His bosom,” yet always “going forth” to “declare” the Father–once as the creating Word, occasionally in pre-incarnate theophanies, also through the Holy Spirit conveying God's written Word (which had been “eternally settled in heaven” [Psalm 119:89]) down to man through divinely chosen prophets, then ultimately appearing as the incarnate Word to live forever as the God/man.
The doctrine of “eternal generation” was what the older theologians called this great truth. He did not become the only Son by His virgin birth. He was the only begotten Son from eternity, “set up from everlasting” (Proverbs 8:23).
KathiFor the life of me, I do not understand why you pick sources and imply their quotes mean that Jesus had a beginning before the ages?
This is a quote from the same page of your source…
But it is never applied in this sense to Christ, for He is not a created son of God (as the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cultists teach), but a begotten Son of God–in fact, the only begotten Son of God. “HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING, for He was there in the beginning(John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5).
In that wonderful Old Testament Christmas prophecy about His coming human birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), we are told that His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” His human body was, indeed, “brought forth” from “she which travaileth” (Micah 5:3). “BUT LONG BEFORE THAT, HE HAD BEEN EVERLASTINGLY GOING FORTH FROM “THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER.” As noted in John 1:18, He was still “in the bosom of the Father,” even while He was on Earth manifesting the Father. Source
Why do you think that Trinitarians agree with you that Jesus “begetting” means he had a beginning through procreation?
The doctrines of “Arius” believing Jesus had a begining before time was settled by the church centuries ago.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 10 2010,05:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,11:21) From the Institute for Creation Research, Henry M. Morris, Ph.D. had this to say about 'eternally begotten:' Quote Eternally Begotten
He is not just the only begotten Son of the Father, for He is also the eternally begotten Son of the Father. He is eternally “in His bosom,” yet always “going forth” to “declare” the Father–once as the creating Word, occasionally in pre-incarnate theophanies, also through the Holy Spirit conveying God's written Word (which had been “eternally settled in heaven” [Psalm 119:89]) down to man through divinely chosen prophets, then ultimately appearing as the incarnate Word to live forever as the God/man.
The doctrine of “eternal generation” was what the older theologians called this great truth. He did not become the only Son by His virgin birth. He was the only begotten Son from eternity, “set up from everlasting” (Proverbs 8:23).
KathiFor the life of me, I do not understand why you pick sources and imply their quotes mean that Jesus had a beginning before the ages?
This is a quote from the same page of your source…
But it is never applied in this sense to Christ, for He is not a created son of God (as the Jehovah's Witnesses and other cultists teach), but a begotten Son of God–in fact, the only begotten Son of God. “HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING, for He was there in the beginning(John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5).
In that wonderful Old Testament Christmas prophecy about His coming human birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2), we are told that His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” His human body was, indeed, “brought forth” from “she which travaileth” (Micah 5:3). “BUT LONG BEFORE THAT, HE HAD BEEN EVERLASTINGLY GOING FORTH FROM “THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER.” As noted in John 1:18, He was still “in the bosom of the Father,” even while He was on Earth manifesting the Father. Source
Why do you think that Trinitarians agree with you that Jesus “begetting” means he had a beginning through procreation?
The doctrines of “Arius” believing Jesus had a begining before time was settled by the church centuries ago.
WJ
WJ What you are quoting is from Humans, I for one do not depend or even read such nonsense…… The Bible clearly tells us that God s above all in
Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
And
Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD
And
1Cr 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.And by Jesus own words in
Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
All these Scriptures are taken from the Blue Letter Bible on the Internet.
This is of the subject, but I find it out of respect for my Heavenly Father in Heaven that I put these Scriptures up……
Jesus did have beginning, how could He even call Jehovah God Father. He came forth from His Father, just like we all did too. Only He was not created out of the dust of the earth like we did……
Sorry Kathi….
What I do not like about that article is also The Word of God is to them just a spoken Word and not Jesus…… They do not go by Scripture otherwise they would know better, that Jesus did have a beginning…..Peace Irene
Ya'll,
I'm just researching some here to see how different ones explain 'eternally begotten' whether or not I agree with them, I will still post their opinions. I just want to have a place for the various opinions that I come across to be located in one topic.Keith,
Quote For the life of me, I do not understand why you pick sources and imply their quotes mean that Jesus had a beginning before the ages? I am realizing that these kind of statements:
” “HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING, for He was there in the beginning(John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5). “
are not very substantial to build a doctrine around. He was there in the beginning just means that He was there in the beginning, before that is unclear.
I am not implying they agree with me, I am bolding words that relate to the topic and also bolding words that clearly might show you or others how they disagree with you for your own information.
I am not about debating people's opinions here, this is more of a gathering of the various explanations of the term 'eternally begotten' mainly for my own understanding and hopefully it will be interesting to others.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,21:38) Keith, Quote For the life of me, I do not understand why you pick sources and imply their quotes mean that Jesus had a beginning before the ages? I am realizing that these kind of statements:
” “HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING, for He was there in the beginning(John 1:1). In His prayer to the Father in the upper room, He spoke of “the glory which I had with thee before the world was” (John 17:5). “
are not very substantial to build a doctrine around. He was there in the beginning just means that He was there in the beginning, before that is unclear.
I am not implying they agree with me, I am bolding words that relate to the topic and also bolding words that clearly might show you or others how they disagree with you for your own information.
I am not about debating people's opinions here, this is more of a gathering of the various explanations of the term 'eternally begotten' mainly for my own understanding and hopefully it will be interesting to others.
KathiSo what you are saying is that they are contradicting themselves?
Because they do not believe “Monogenes” or “Begotten (gennao)” means Jesus had a beginning before time.
I agree with them, but you say I am not?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,21:38) I am not implying they agree with me, I am bolding words that relate to the topic and also bolding words that clearly might show you or others how they disagree with you for your own information.
KathiWhy are you seeking to find things that they disagree with me on? I thought you were searching for truth that they agree with you on? They are Trinitarians and I agree with them.
Should I set out to post all the things about the Holy Spirit that they disagree with you on?
WJ
Keith,
You ought to know that there are scholarly trinitarians that disagree with you because you don't seem to acknowledge that. I don't mind if you post things that you think disagree with me, you do it all the time. Just put it in the right topic. I am not purposely looking especially for those that disagree with you, I just easily come across them when looking for something about the only begotten Son. Since I see them, I thought that you would be interested to see their viewpoint.Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:11) Keith,
You ought to know that there are scholarly trinitarians that disagree with you because you don't seem to acknowledge that. I don't mind if you post things that you think disagree with me, you do it all the time. Just put it in the right topic. I am not purposely looking especially for those that disagree with you, I just easily come across them when looking for something about the only begotten Son. Since I see them, I thought that you would be interested to see their viewpoint.
KathiVery little, in fact I can't think of anything.
My view on the word “Monogenes” is supported by the NET and AT Robertson and many other Trinitarians.
I agree that not all agree in every point. But I am not solely basing my beliefs on just my opinions but in fact my beliefs are solidly backed by scriptures and confirmed by many of the experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek and by my own study and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Not in that order of course!
WJ
I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:53) I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
KathiAnd just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is.
So please show me how I am not in agreement!
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:53) I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
KathiBut it is your view that totally disagrees because you believe Monogenes means Jesus had a beginning before time!
WJ
keith,
When I say the Son had a beginning before creation, I equate that with He was generated before creation. Just like what it says here:Quote Council of Constantinople II “If anyone does not confess that there are two generations of the Word of God, one from the Father before all ages, without time and incorporeally, the other in the last days when the same came down from heaven and was incarnate . . . let such a one be anathema” (Anathemas Concerning the Three Chapters, canon 2 [A.D. 553]).
I think that you disagree with this confession, don't you?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 09 2010,23:12) Quote (Lightenup @ Oct. 09 2010,22:53) I know Keith, but your view isn't supported as to your translation of monogenes with the early church fathers and the writers of the creeds.
KathiAnd just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is.
So please show me how I am not in agreement!
WJ
Keith,you said:
Quote And just how is that? Because the word “Monogenes” is not in the creeds. The word “Gennao” is. Both of the words are in this creed…monogenes and gennao as far as I can tell. Look at the Greek:
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/niceneg.htm
Look for : τον μονογενη I believe that is 'the only begotten' or monogenes
and
γεννηθέν which would be gennao if I am not mistaken
γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων
I do think that would be translated as begotten before the ages and not eternally begotten unless 'begotten' is written in the imperfect tense.I would like to know if that “γεννηθέν” is written in the imperfect tense. The imperfect tense would indicate a continuous action. Do you know, Keith? I'll have to try to figure that out…get out the Greek textbook and do some digging
Quote Received Text of the Greek Church Greek text from the Acts of the First Council of Constantinople and in The Acts of the Council of Chalcedon.
Πιστεύομεν εις ένα Θεον Πατερα παντοκράτορα, ποιητην ουρανου και γης, ορατων τε πάντων και αορατων.Και εις ένα κύριον Ιησουν Χριστον, τον υιον του θεοθ τον μονογενη, τον ει του πατρος γεννηθέν τα προ πάντων των αιώνων, φως εκ φωτος, θεον αληθινον εκ θεου αληθινου, γεννηθέντα, ου ποιηθέντα, ομοουσιον τωι πατρί· δι' ου τα παντα εγένετο· τον δι' ημας τους αιθρώποους και δια την ημετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθοντα εκ των ουρανων και σαρκωθέντα εκ πνεύματος αγίου και Μαρίας της παρθένου και ενανθρωπήσαντα, σταυρωθέντα τε υπερ ημων επι Ποντίου Πιλάτου, και παθοντα και ταφέντα, και ανασταντα τηι τρίτηι ημέπαι κατα τας γραφάς, και ανελθόντα εις τους ουρανούς, και καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιων του πατρός, και πάλιν ερχόμενον μετα δόξης κριναι ζωντας και νεκρούς· ου της βασιλείας ουκ έσται τέλος.
Και εις το Πνευμα το Άγιον, το κύριον, (και) το ζωοποιόν, το εκ του πατρος εκπορευόμενον, το συν πατρι και υιωι συν προσκυνούμενον και συνδοξαζόμενον, το λαλησαν δια των προφητων· εις μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικην και αποστολικην εκκλησίαω· ομολογουμεν εν βάπτισμα εις άφ
εσιν αμαρτιων· προσδοκωμεν ανάστασιν νεκρων, και ζωην του μελλοντος αιώωος. Αμήν.Now do you see how you are not in agreement? The word monogenes is in the creed and is translated as 'only begotten.'
Augustine:
Quote Augustine “In the way that you speak a word that you have in your heart and it is with you . . . that is how God issued the Word, that is to say, how he begot the Son. And you, indeed, beget a word too in your heart, without temporal preparation; God begot the Son outside of time, the Son through whom he created all things” (Homilies on John 14:7 [A.D. 416]).
http://www.catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp“…God begot the Son outside of time, the Son through whom he created all things”
So begotten 'outside of time' is how Augustine puts it and not 'eternally begotten' according to this quote.
Pierre,
I would like to think that WJ really didn't realize that monogenes was in the nicene creed. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt…that is always a better way! Also, I would really like to keep this topic free of belittling others and believing that is possible since I really am asking for people's, especially non-member's, opinions on the term 'eternally begotten' and everyone is entitled to their opinion. If the quotes are from people that aren't here on HN, then there really is no need to debate 'them.' This is just a gathering place of info. Find more opinions in the early church father's writings on the term 'eternally begotten' and put them up here or find other 'Christians' opinions in books or on the web and put them up here also. It would help if you bolded the part that I am actually looking for within their quotes. Thanks Pierre!Kathi,
Eternally Begotten…
JustAskin's opinion… Jesus, once begotten, will remain begotten, eternally.
Jesus, after he was begotten by the father when he was resurrected from the dead, remains eternally so, eternally begotten.
Fractally…just as Isaac was 'figuratively' Sacrificed and raised up again and became the begotten Son of Abraham (Note that Isaac was already the son of Abraham before he was 'begotten' of Abraham, because the 'begetting' was 'In Spirit', just as those of mankind who obtain their new Spirit will ALSO become 'Begotten SONS of GOD', eternally).Eternal. Adam was a Son of God but did not remain so 'eternally'. But that one that came after, will be so 'eternally'.
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