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Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 28 2007,20:42) Hi Phoenix, You can use this one on the net.
You do not need to download it.
http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htmTim
Hi TimothyVI, thanks for your note to Phoenix re the Interlinear Scripture Analyser, I should have mentioned what you did, that it didn't have to be downloaded to use.
Blessings.Quote “. . .were hurled into the lake of fire. THIS MEANS the second death, the lake of fire.”–The Bible
The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction, the second death, from which there is no resurrection possible.–David
Quote Hi david,
Are we allowed to call symbolic whatever we do not like?–Nick
Nick, obviously not. But the Bible indicates that it is:
The wild beast which is hurled into this lake of fire is not an actual animal is it?
The false prophet who is thrown into this fire is not an actual person, is it?
Death and hades are also hurled into this lake of fire.
What effect would a physical lake of fire have on “death” or “hades” Nick?
The dEVIL will also be thrown in. What effect Nick would literal fire have on the devil? Please do tell.Please answer those questions.
One thing we know, it is certainly not an inferno of eternal torture for the wicked, since the very idea of such a place is detestable to Jehovah. —Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 1 John 4:8, 16.
Since the lake of fire represents or means “the second death” and since Revelation 20:14 says that both “death and Hades” are to be cast into it, it is evident that the lake cannot represent the death man has inherited from Adam (Ro 5:12), nor does it refer to Hades (Sheol). It must, therefore, be symbolic of another kind of death, one that is without reversal, for the record nowhere speaks of the “lake” as giving up those in it, as do Adamic death and Hades (Sheol). (Re 20:13)
Thus, those not found written in “the book of life,” unrepentant opposers of God’s sovereignty, are hurled into the lake of fire, meaning eternal destruction, or the second death.—Re 20:15.Phoenix says:
Quote Well, what would you make of the statement that Jesus stated in Mark 9:43
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:The way I see that verse is that it is better to cut your hand off and suffer the pain and consequences of that than to endure the pain of eternal punishment.
I take it this way: Nothing is worth losing our eternal life, not a hand, not an eye, nothing. If your eye is giving you problems, cut it out, FIGURATIVELY speaking. Nothing is worth being cast into destruction, the second death, the lake of fire….nothing.
Death, inherited from Adam, and Hades will be thrown into this lake of fire. Can these two abstract things suffer? No. But the fire here can and does represent their disappearance, which will take place once they have ‘given up those dead in them,’ that is, after the resurrection of the dead.—Revelation 20:13, 14.
Hi David,
Neither of the places, death [bosom of Abraham]and Hades are abstract.
Jesus showed us what they were like.
Lk 16
' 19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
The Pope (the most holy father) just yesterday said that hell is real! And that you will suffer for eternity. So that's that::D
Hi The Lake of fire is the whole creation that returned to the dust with out promise;
Some found righteous before God but still they would return by curse to death by AdamRom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The pit opened as the great smoke of a great furnace;
Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Those consumed come forth Some to shame and some to everlasting life to wit power over the second death the end of the lake of fire verly verly noe is the time that the dead shall here the voice of the son Of God from the grave marvel not for Judgement has begun
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
The earth a hot oven and the branches that do not stay attached are gathered and burned
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Untill the every knee is bowed and every tounge confess for ever and everRev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,And the sea gave up the dead and they were judged according to there works
Isa 23:4 Be thou ashamed, O Zidon: for the sea hath spoken, [even] the strength of the sea, saying, I travail not, nor bring forth children, neither do I nourish up young men, [nor] bring up virgins.
Isa 23:5 As at the report concerning Egypt, [so] shall they be sorely pained at the report of Tyre.The harlot is consumed went up in flames by fire; yet made the prepared bride by resurrection of life
Isa 23:16 Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.
Isa 23:18 And her merchandise and her hire shall be holiness to the LORD: it shall not be treasured nor laid up; for her merchandise shall be for them that dwell before the LORD, to eat sufficiently, and for durable clothing.charity
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
By the grace and mercy of God again a second time he attempts to draw all men unto himself.
Behold the second invertation is extended
It must be four o'clock some whereQuote Hi David,
Neither of the places, death [bosom of Abraham]and Hades are abstract.Nick, I would like you to take some literal fire and burn literal death with it. Death is very real. But it's not tangible. Fire is.
You missed this:
The wild beast which is hurled into this lake of fire is not an actual animal is it?
The false prophet who is thrown into this fire is not an actual person, is it?
Death and hades are also hurled into this lake of fire.
What effect would a physical lake of fire have on “death” or “hades” Nick?
The dEVIL will also be thrown in. What effect Nick would literal fire have on the devil? Please do tell.Please answer those questions.
the lake of fire “means the second death.”
Nick, on page 13, I wrote this to you, or quoted your words:
Quote Quote
Hi WIT,
Some good thought there.
More like a siege than commando warfare?
My suggestion is that no one scripture can be used as a proof
but it must have two supporting witnessing verses.Nick, are you willing to listen to your own words?
Of course, I was speaking about your one scripture, this parable. I wonder if there is anything else concrete that you have to offer?
Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2007,07:01) Quote Hi David,
Neither of the places, death [bosom of Abraham]and Hades are abstract.Nick, I would like you to take some literal fire and burn literal death with it. Death is very real. But it's not tangible. Fire is.
You missed this:
The wild beast which is hurled into this lake of fire is not an actual animal is it?
The false prophet who is thrown into this fire is not an actual person, is it?
Death and hades are also hurled into this lake of fire.
What effect would a physical lake of fire have on “death” or “hades” Nick?
The dEVIL will also be thrown in. What effect Nick would literal fire have on the devil? Please do tell.Please answer those questions.
the lake of fire “means the second death.”
Hi david,
When in doubt allegorise?Quote Hi david,
When in doubt allegorise?No Nick, when in doubt, pick one scripture that is a parable that you can twist to fit your Greek babylonian belief and then ignore all others.
Thirdly, eternal life is given to the righteous. The wicked do not have eternal life even if it is in a constant state of pain I would have thought. To live is to be conscious surely?–T8, earlier in this thread.
This is a point I don't remember mentioning myself. The “gift” of everlasting life is “given” to deserving ones. The idea of the immortal soul is from Babylon. It also sifted its way through Greek thought.
We should read the whole Bible Nick and understand Jehovah and the scriptures as a whole instead of narrowing in on one or two scriptures while ignoring thousands of others that are clear and non-parabolic in nature.
Back to T8's unanswered question:
Thirdly, eternal life is given to the righteous. The wicked do not have eternal life even if it is in a constant state of pain I would have thought. To live is to be conscious surely?
As T8 indicated, everlasting life is mentioned in the Bible as a gift for those who are deserving. It's not something everyone just has. There is no immortal soul. If there were, there would be no need for the resurrection.
So what of T8's comment.
Hebrews 10:26
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.So the enemies of God are consumed in the Lake of Fire.
Amen.
Hi t8,
In context it still does not sound like a barrel of laughs though.
Heb 10
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Yes it seems that it is the ultimate judgement and the punishment much greater than those who despised Moses' law, for they went to the grave. Yes, The Lake of Fire is a greater judgment than the grave because it is the ultimate judgement.
There are no judgments after this one and it is a necessary part of the new creation that the old is destroyed, so that God can dwell in all. At this point creation is redeemed as death is overcome. God will be able to dwell in all thereafter and there will be no sin in the new creation..
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
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