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I'd like some comments on this scripture:
Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, [outside the south wall of Jerusalem] in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.”
If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.
Jeremiah 7:31 (New International Version)
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.Jeremiah 7:31 (The Message)
They've constructed Topheth altars for burning babies in prominent places all through the valley of Ben-hinnom, altars for burning their sons and daughters alive in the fire–a shocking perversion of all that I am and all I command.Jeremiah 7:31 (Amplified Bible)
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of Ben-hinnom [son of Hinnom], to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire [in honor of Molech, the fire god]–which I did not command, nor did it come into My mind or heart.Jeremiah 7:31 (New Living Translation)
They have built the pagan shrines of Topheth in the valley of the son of Hinnom, where they sacrifice their little sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!Jeremiah 7:31 (King James Version)
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.Jeremiah 7:31 (Contemporary English Version)
At Topheth in Hinnom Valley you have built altars where you kill your children and burn them as sacrifices to other gods. I would never think of telling you to do this.Jeremiah 7:31 (Young's Literal Translation)
And have built the high places of Tophet, That [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, To burn their sons and their daughters with fire, Which I did not command, Nor did it come up on My heart.Jeremiah 7:31 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
They have built the high places of Topheth (A) [a] in the Valley of Hinnom (B) in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing I did not command; I never entertained the thought.Jeremiah 7:31 (New International Reader's Version)
The people have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom. There they worship other gods. And there they sacrifice their children in the fire. That is something I did not command. It did not even enter my mind.Later, Jehovah describes what they did as “detestable” if I remember correctly. And I think I do.
Burning their sons and daughters in the fire alive was, according to these various translations:
“something [God] did not command, nor did it enter [His] mind,” “a shocking perversion of all that I am and all I command,” “I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!” “I would never think of telling you to do this.”
“a thing I did not command; I never entertained the thought.”
“It did not even enter my mind.”The things stated above are with reference to burning people alive, as you will note simply by reading the scriptures, and how various translations connect the words.
If the idea of doing something like this had never entered God’s mind, if he had never “entertained the thought,” or “would never think of telling [them] to do this,” if it had “never even crossed [God’s] mind to command such a thing,” then does it seem reasonable that he had earlier created such a place of torment on a much larger scale? Does that make sense?The idea of such human sacrifices came into the heart of the religious apostates back there, but never into the heart of Jehovah God.
Comments?
Hi david,
Jer 7 is getting a little tired from overuse on this matter.
Is it all you can offer to say the warning message of scripture was false?Quote Is it all you can offer to say the warning message of scripture was false?
Perhaps you missed the last page.I was actually at the end going to comment that anyone “other than Nick” should reply. Because no one other than you has really ever commented ont this. If you are tired of this matter, (and I understand how you would confuse tiredness with annoyance) please feel free to step out of the conversation. Not that I don't enjoy your witty banter.
Hi david,
Jer 7 relates to the treatment of one's children.
Are all men children of God in His eyes?
What of those that are said to have satan as their father?Hi David
Good point and I agree.
But, then why would scriptures even mention such phrases? ie:lake of fire etc. Why would Jesus say state in Mark 9:43,44 '..if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched…'? This is only a few out of a lot more that I have mentioned.I still dont understand what the purpose of mentioning 'lake of fire', 'eternal punishment' and so on if the thought was not even in Gods mind.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote I still dont understand what the purpose of mentioning 'lake of fire', 'eternal punishment' and so on if the thought was not even in Gods mind. Child sacrifice, throwing someone alive into fire never even came into Jehovah's mind.
But the “eternal punishment” of DESTRUCTION, through the lake of fire (fire being a symbol of destruction, as all the worlds incinerators attest to) is a very different thing.If Jehovah wanted to indicate to someone that they would be destroyed with no hope of being resurrected or brought back to life, what sort of understandable thing could you compare this to?
Everyone understands that if you crush something, cut it up, freeze it, etc, it is still there. Everyone everywhere understands that fire is something that destroys.
Unfortunately, people confuse the fact that it is also something that is painful.
When Jesus compared death to sleep, we understand this: At death, you are unconscious, but like sleep, you can be awoken, or raised up to life. Yet, death and sleep aren't the same in every way. If I poke a dead person, he won't wake up.
The lake of fire is symbolic of destruction. It doesn't have to be exactly like fire in every respect.david
Hi david,
So the lake of fire is only symbolic and imaginary?
Perhaps a warm or even a cold fire?
Utterly painless?Did God tell you this or are you making it all up?
Quote So the lake of fire is only symbolic and imaginary? In your mind, symbolic = imaginary? ? ?
Symbolic means that it is a symbol of something or means something.
Quote Did God tell you this or are you making it all up? “. . .were hurled into the lake of fire. THIS MEANS the second death, the lake of fire.”–The Bible
The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction, the second death, from which there is no resurrection possible.Quote Child sacrifice, throwing someone alive into fire never even came into Jehovah's mind.
But the “eternal punishment” of DESTRUCTION, through the lake of fire (fire being a symbol of destruction, as all the worlds incinerators attest to) is a very different thing.Oh. Well why post something totally different to the subject of the thread then?
Quote If Jehovah wanted to indicate to someone that they would be destroyed with no hope of being resurrected or brought back to life, what sort of understandable thing could you compare this to?
Everyone understands that if you crush something, cut it up, freeze it, etc, it is still there. Everyone everywhere understands that fire is something that destroys.
Unfortunately, people confuse the fact that it is also something that is painful.Well, what would you make of the statement that Jesus stated in Mark 9:43
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:The way I see that verse is that it is better to cut your hand off and suffer the pain and consequences of that than to endure the pain of eternal punishment.
Quote
The lake of fire is symbolic of destruction. It doesn't have to be exactly like fire in every respect.I honestly think you may have underestimated that concept. Although I do not believe that it is 'eternal' like some seem to say, I do believe that there will be a fire so hot that it will utterly destroy all who are engulfed by it. I do understand that the word 'for ever' is stated in some scriptures, there are also other similar passages that demonstrate it to mean as long as a person lives for example…
Ex 21:6
6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.Clearly that shows the slave shall serve the master for as long as he lives
I think the expression 'eternal fire' would be better understood in the terms of 'consequences' instead of duration, as in the example of Sodom and Gommorrha. Dont you agree?
Phoenix
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 28 2007,07:01) Hi David Good point and I agree.
But, then why would scriptures even mention such phrases? ie:lake of fire etc. Why would Jesus say state in Mark 9:43,44 '..if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched…'? This is only a few out of a lot more that I have mentioned.I still dont understand what the purpose of mentioning 'lake of fire', 'eternal punishment' and so on if the thought was not even in Gods mind.
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix,Many of the scriptures that were translated to say eternal, say nothing of the kind. The word eon or aion were mistranslated to say eternal. They actually mean for an age.
That age will change to another age.As for the lake of fire,
Rev 21:8 But the fearful (timid), and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.My wife is timid, I am afraid of hieghts. who among us has never told a lie? Now I know that Jesus has forgiven us, but
that pretty much says that virtually every person alive will have their part in the lake of fire. So unless the lake is something other than a place for people to burn eternally, there is no hope.Tim
2Pe 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example unto those that should live ungodly;
Sodom and Gomorrah is an example to the wicked. Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts.
The wicked “shall be ashes”. Burned up, destroyed, ASHES.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are found guilty: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
The inhabitants of the earth are burned and few men left.
Mat 3:12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will BURN UP with unquenchable fire.
The fire is unquenchable NOT those thrown in the fire! Those thrown in the fire are BURNED UP!
Mat 10:28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
God will DESTROY body and soul, NOT continually burn them forever and ever.
Rev 21:4 and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Second death NOT second eternal life in fire!No crying in the New Kingdom. Could you watch your son being tortured forever?
I being sinful couldn't burn anyone forever how is a God who is love and righteousness burn His children forever.LOVE ME OR ELSE! Please I wouldn't want that kind of love which isn't love but fear of being tormented for eternity!
Honey I love you but unless you love me back I will beat you forever.
A false doctrine that filled the churches with money!
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 28 2007,05:13) Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 28 2007,04:59) Quote (charity @ Mar. 28 2007,00:22) We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Hi Charity, the correct translation of that last sentence is… “let Us be making them in our image”. This is the present and future tense, to be completed at the consummation.
Blessings.
Hi ChosenoneHmmm…that isnt what my bible says.
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix, There are many versions (translations) of the scriptures. For an accurate transaltion, use the “Interlinear Scripture Analyzer”, this gives a word for word of the Greek and Hebrew to English translation as well as sentence structure. It is available as a free download from “www.scripture4all.org”. I find this most enlightening when trying to find the true interpetation by useing this translating method. It removes the bias of the interperter.
Blessings.Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 28 2007,18:41) Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 28 2007,05:13) Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 28 2007,04:59) Quote (charity @ Mar. 28 2007,00:22) We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Hi Charity, the correct translation of that last sentence is… “let Us be making them in our image”. This is the present and future tense, to be completed at the consummation.
Blessings.
Hi ChosenoneHmmm…that isnt what my bible says.
Hugs
Phoenix
Hi Phoenix, There are many versions (translations) of the scriptures. For an accurate transaltion, use the “Interlinear Scripture Analyzer”, this gives a word for word of the Greek and Hebrew to English translation as well as sentence structure. It is available as a free download from “www.scripture4all.org”. I find this most enlightening when trying to find the true interpetation by useing this translating method. It removes the bias of the interperter.
Blessings.
Hi ChosenoneI went to check out which transliteration of the Hebrew text they use and they havent answered it.
Also, thanks to Nick he showed me the one they have on this site. So, would it be the same as the one you have shown me?
I havent downloaded it but if you think it is similar then its no point me downloading it when I can use the one Heaven.Net shared.
Hugs
PhoenixHi Phoenix,
You can use this one on the net.
You do not need to download it.
http://www.scripture4all.org/index.htmTim
Hi Tim
That the exact same thing Chosenone gave me.
Edit: Oh I found the online one that you are talking about. Well, I guess that looks ok.Cheers
Quote (Phoenix @ Mar. 28 2007,20:45) Hi Tim That the exact same thing Chosenone gave me.
Edit: Oh I found the online one that you are talking about. Well, I guess that looks ok.Cheers
That web page works very well Phoenix.Just click on whether you are looking for greek translations or Hebrew translations.
Obviously the old testament is in the Hebrew, and the new is in the Greek.Tim
Hi Tim,
All of us are influenced by other things but what controls us?
The sons of God ARE LED BY the Spirit of God.
We cannot bury the investment given us but must use it to make a profit for God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2007,23:34) Hi Tim,
All of us are influenced by other things but what controls us?
The sons of God ARE LED BY the Spirit of God.
We cannot bury the investment given us but must use it to make a profit for God.
I'm sorry Nick,You lost me.
Tim
Hi Tim,
We are all works under construction.
When we are reborn we are like Joshua entering the promised, but occupied land.
We are to be overcomers.
We must listen to and learn from the Spirit.
Then the Spirit will lead us.
We are to use the investment given us and not let FEAR cause us to hold back..mt 25
” 18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
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