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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,02:22) Hi CO,
In the Garden of Gethsemane
did Christ not show that he had free will
but chose to follow the will of God, the Father?
It was Gods will that He chose Gods will.Hi,
To understand God we must take on board that his mercy was not extended to His own son.
Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,03:13) Hi co,
So he had free will and chose the will of the Father and not his own will?
Nick, Eph.1:11 Being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the councel of His will.
What do you not understand about this scripture?Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 27 2007,04:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,03:13) Hi co,
So he had free will and chose the will of the Father and not his own will?
Nick, Eph.1:11 Being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the councel of His will.
What do you not understand about this scripture?
Hi co,
That depends on what it means to you.
Can you expand a little?Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 27 2007,01:55) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2007,08:53) Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 26 2007,07:48) God says, “love your enemies”. Why would He tell us that when he is going to torture His enemies forever?
Hi CO,
Welcome. Hope you enjoy it here. Interesting username you selected, why did you chose it?
Hi Is.1:18, You inquire why I chose this username. I believe the scriptures teach the salvation of all mankind. “All is of God” (1Co.11:12 2Co.5:18 Ro.11:36) …”Out of Whom all is”. (1Co.8:6) , I believe these scriptures say God is in complete control, the teaching of “free will” is unbiblical. Scripture also says “His achievement are we”. (Eph.2:10), also we are …designated beforehand…(Eph. 1:3-6) also
Thus, “the purpose of God may be remaining as choice, Not out of acts, but of HIM WHO IS CALLING. (Ro. 9:11).
We cannot do anything to “qualify” or “Earn” our salvation, we are saved “by the grace of God”. To think otherwise is to take away Gods glory, assuming pride in ourselves, that some how we are smarter than others by making the right choices.
That is why I use this username, I can take no credit at all for my salvation. “ALL IS OF GOD”.
Thanks for the explanation.
Quote Hi Tim,
Thanks.
You see the point.
We need some sound proofs not emotional or logical derivations.
If you are going to state doctrines then you must do so from what is written in scripture.
To say God is nice and would not allow anything horrible to happen is appealing to logic and emotional resources and not resorting to a scriptural base.
It is similar to the universalist circular deceptive dogma that God wants everyone to be saved and can save everyone so everyone will be saved.
God is merciful and will save many who will be totally surprised at this outcome as Matt 25 shows but that mercy is given only to the merciful and in particular mercy is given to those who have shown mercy to the sons of God.–Nick
Quote If you are going to state doctrines then you must do so from what is written in scripture. It is written: “God is love.”
If a loving father would never do something like this to his children, and yet the God who “is” love would, then apparently we humans have no concept of what “love” is.It is written: “He is a lover of righteousness and justice.”
Again, it is written: “all his ways are justice.”
And: “A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice;”Again, it is written: “For Jehovah is a lover of justice,”
Justice is “the quality of being just or fair.” –wordnet.princeton.
“Fair” is “conforming with established standards or rules.”–wordnet.princeton.This means Jehovah, a lover of justice would be fair or conform to his own standards or rules. To not do this would be hypocritical, afterall.
So Jehovah is just, he conforms to his own standards, obviously.I'm sorry if that's too logical for you. I would think it more of common sense and a plain understanding of normal words.
If Jehovah conforms to his own standards, and Jehovah tells us to love our enemies, in what world or universe could you imagine that Jehovah would be fair or just and conform to this standard if He tortured his own enemies for all time.
-If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
Along the same lines, what does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
-If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?I suspect Nick will accuse me of logic or using the scriptures. Let him.
Quote Hi WIT,
Some good thought there.
More like a siege than commando warfare?
My suggestion is that no one scripture can be used as a proof
but it must have two supporting witnessing verses.Nick, are you willing to listen to your own words?
Quote Hi david,
So is God so loving that the lake of fire idea has been canned?Nick, it is sometimes the loving thing to do to put a dog out of his misery, by ending his life.
But to burn that dog, while keeping him alive, for years and years and years and years and years and years…
By any definition, in any country in any dictionary at any time in history, that would be described as SADISTIC!can you not see an enourmous difference?
Out of love, Jehovah will lovingly and fairly remove those who would ruin life for the righteous. This shows love on his part. So they will perish. But burning them alive would seem to serve no purpose, except trouble those who remain alive.
Just looking back a few pages and would like to revist a thought:
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Nick contends that this eternal destruction means they are being destroyed forever, eternally. I believe that it means they will be destroyed for all time with no hope of coming back, ie, the second death.
In an earlier post I wrote:
“continued destruction for eternity,” Nick?
Well then it's not really destruction is it?
If you start destroying something now, and are still destroying it a million years from now, or a billion or a million billion, or a billion billion, or a ….. well, eternity just doesn't end does it. So neither would the destruction end. Thus, it would never actually be destroyed (put out of existence).
Common sense and logic based on the simple meaning of these words does not allow for your beliefs.Does eternal destruction mean:
1. Destroyed forever?
2. Being destroyed forever?IF SOMETHING IS BEING DESTROYED FOREVER, THEN IT IS NEVER ACTUALLY DESTROYED, AND THUS A CONTRADICTION. You are thus wrong.
As far as your argument that there is no difference between “destruction” and “eternal destruction,” well, that's just wrong.
The Bible indicates that not all destruction is eternal. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Hebrew word ´avad·dohn´ (destruction) is used twice to parallel “Sheol.” (Job 26:6; Pr 15:11) The prophet Zephaniah spoke of the destruction of Assyria, whereas Ezekiel said that the Assyrians would go down to Sheol. (Zep 2:13; Eze 32:21, 22) When speaking of the destruction of the rebels Dathan and Abiram, Moses wrote that they went down “alive into Sheol.” (Nu 16:31, 33) Since Sheol in the Bible denotes the common grave of mankind from which there will be a resurrection, it is evident that not all destruction—not even all destruction at the hand of God—is necessarily eternal.
This is also illustrated by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their inhabitants. Jude indicated that these cities were everlastingly destroyed. (Jude 7; compare 2Pe 2:6.) However, Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 10:15 show that at least some of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a resurrection.Clearly, it is a contradiction of the very word to believe that something can be eternally destroyed, without ever actually being destroyed. If something is being eternally destroyed, then it in fact is never actually destroyed at all.
For someone who understands love and justice and has spent any time attempting to discern Jehovah's qualities and personality, it should be obvious that such a thing has never come up into his heart. (Jeremiah 7:31)
Quote Talk with the Author.
He will only preserve what is sanctified.–Nick
“preserve”: continue: keep or maintain in unaltered condition; cause to remain or last.
Yes Nick, the wicked will not remain or last. They will perish.
Hey david
Not sure if this helps….
Isa 57:15 ¶ For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isa 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [which] I have made.
I think it’s a call for humility or you may as well live your days out tormented to the second death the lake of fire
charity
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,05:11) Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 27 2007,04:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,03:13) Hi co,
So he had free will and chose the will of the Father and not his own will?
Nick, Eph.1:11 Being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the councel of His will.
What do you not understand about this scripture?
Hi co,
That depends on what it means to you.
Can you expand a little?
Nick, I believe it means just as it reads, not to difficult is it?Hi co,
O well then I will have a go.
Eph 1
9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
So God wills, that all things that will be in Christ, will be gathered as one in Him.
Then names are written in the book of life as each responds to grace.Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 27 2007,15:01) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,05:11) Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 27 2007,04:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2007,03:13) Hi co,
So he had free will and chose the will of the Father and not his own will?
Nick, Eph.1:11 Being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the councel of His will.
What do you not understand about this scripture?
Hi co,
That depends on what it means to you.
Can you expand a little?
Nick, I believe it means just as it reads, not to difficult is it?
Hi chosenonewelcome and God bless you
Why is it a thing so hard to understand that God created for himself a co author as a help mate
leading us in judgement back to beginning to be the making of and then helping towards the creation?
And by this wisdom offering knowledge of witty Inventions we are lead to be co inheritors of God with Christ whom waxed strong in the spirit of wisdom as he grew up
By Solomon words he recorded; whom obtained wisdom from God; knowledge of before the foundations were layed being the wisest of all men the witty inventions of God are hidden; even sort after in other ways?
That if you chose the Law of Grace; you will find not to hand Solomon over to the Law given to the transgressor to judge and condemn him as also his father David has been judged not worthy of report;Wisdom to all men
Pro 8:12 ¶ I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:charity
We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Quote (charity @ Mar. 28 2007,00:22) We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Hi Charity, the correct translation of that last sentence is… “let Us be making them in our image”. This is the present and future tense, to be completed at the consummation.
Blessings.Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 28 2007,04:59) Quote (charity @ Mar. 28 2007,00:22) We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Hi Charity, the correct translation of that last sentence is… “let Us be making them in our image”. This is the present and future tense, to be completed at the consummation.
Blessings.
Hi ChosenoneHmmm…that isnt what my bible says.
Hugs
PhoenixQuote (chosenone @ Mar. 28 2007,04:59) Quote (charity @ Mar. 28 2007,00:22) We all have a set of knees; use them rightly?
As Solomon was given a gift; whatsoever he asked of God
God has asked us also and said I will give you your hearts desire; make it the top priority wisdom his help mate; wisdom that he himself was not alone when he said Let us Make male and female in our Image.charity
Hi Charity, the correct translation of that last sentence is… “let Us be making them in our image”. This is the present and future tense, to be completed at the consummation.
Blessings.
Love it Thanks chosenone
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