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Hi W,
Some things.
The Lake of fire was not designed by God for man but the angels.Matt 25
“41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: “The body and the soul can be destroyed there.
Matt 10
” 28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. “It is to be avoided at all cost
Mk 9
” 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
which quotes Is 66 speaking of the endtimes
“22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
Which speaks of the vengeance of God in 2 Thess 1
” 5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; “
Indeed men perish in the wrath of God.
How long does it take to destroy a soul in the everlasting flames?Check then rev 19 speaking of the human beast and the false prophet.
” 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
and compare Rev 20 AFTER the 1000 yr reign
” 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. “
They are still there after 1000yrs.
Then be sure you are in Christ.
Jn 3
” 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
1Thess 1
“10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”Quote Hi W,
David's approach on this matter is to abandon any attempt at scriptural exegesis and to appeal to emotion. He seems to think we can design a God according to what niceness is.Nick, I know what the word “God” means. I know what the word “is” means. And I know what the word “love” means. And I know what it means if you put them all together. And it is not I who put them together. “God is love.” (The Bible)
The thing is Nick, the Bible, and not me tells us that God is just. He isn't just fair. He is the ultimate in justice. If justice is torturing someone for all time because of the sins of 70 years, then our justice systems are not just at all. We should be doing the same. Jehovah is a God of justice. The Bible says this, not me.
If it is justice to torture people for all time for the sins of a few years, then our human perceptions of justice are completely out of whack.
Someone sins against me and I guess I (who should imitate Jehovah's ways) would be just in lighting him on fire, but not enough to kill him and to do so for his entire life. No, not just his entire life. That would be too good. Forever.
Our court systems must be all screwed up. Jehovah's ways are just. And Jehovah tortures people for all time for the sins of 70 or 80 years. We look at people like hitler as sadistic. I guess we had that all wrong.You keep accusing me of trying to put human limitations of what God is capable of.
He isn't capable of lying. The Bible says it's impossible for God to lie. We should know this, without the bible saying it, because of his character. We should also be able to discern that because God IS love and because His word tells us to love our enemies, that he would not torture His enemies for all time in the worst way imaginable.This Satanic belief amazes me. It amazes me how people could believe it. It benefits Satan in that it paints Jehovah to be a cruel vindictive unloving, uncaring sadistic God. He is none of these things.
Nick, if you look up all those words, you'll find the definitions all apply to someone who burns someone else for purposes of torture.What benefit does God get out of burning people for all time? Where is the benefit to him? What love does it show to anyone?
It only serves Satan's interests.
And Nick, you keep saying I am avoiding scripture. You'll notice the points I discussed in my post above all have scriptures behind them. The scriptures behind them are very CLEAR. They aren't parables that can be taken more than one way. They aren't symbolic as revelation is. They are clear words easily understood by most 5 year olds. God is love.
Tell your child that. He'll understand. Then tell him that God burns people forever in unending fire alive. He'll have this confused look on his face. It doesn't fit, with what you told him before: God is love. It's a contradiction and a clear one. “God is love” isn't hard to understand.
Again, no parables or symbolisms. Easy simple language.Nick, if you have yet to discern this, let me say it again: How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
That would be hypocritical, wouldn't it? God is not hypocritical. Another contradiction.
Again, this scripture is unclear. It isn't a parable that is hard for some to understand. It's not found in revelations symbols. It's pretty clear. Easy words. Easy to understand. God's word tells us to love our enemies.
Yet, if God tortures his enemies and for all time while alive none the less, we can assume, can't we, that he hates his enemies?
I mean, why else would you torture someone? Out of love?
Nick I love you…I'm going to light you on fire. No. Makes no sense.Nick, the bible doesn't contradict itself does it?
Since these verses are extremely simple and clear and not ambigous and not parabolic or a revelation, but easy to understand…then maybe your understanding of other places in the Bible is…well, it's just wrong.Unless the Bible contradicts itslelf. And we know it doesn't.
david
The problem David is that scripture appears to say just that as Nick pointed out.
I believe that when sin was first found in satan it was only apparent to God. The trouble was, that God knew that the sin in satan would grow and ruin all of heaven itself. So He created the lake of fire to destroy the irredeemable (which I believe that those exposed to Gods glory and still allow sin a place cannot be redeemed). But if He were to throw satan in prior to his sins being apparent to the rest of heavens inhabitants, they would not see the Love and Justice of God as obviously satan was popular and I do not believe that satan had done anything openly evil (something heaven probably didn't understand anyway).
I believe it was at this point God created man with the intent purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.
We know that God has His faithful angels and we're told satan has his but I believe that there are still those sitting on the fence. But in Revelation where we are told that war breaks out in heaven and this is where I think the host of heaven have their fill of satan's ways and expel him and his from heaven
Now God who would have been reduced in stature had He have tried to explain His actions, is glorified for His wisdom, Holiness, Love and forgiveness. He has also gained more sons proven through fire than He lost to satan.
Now I believe that this lake of fire is God's justice and will destroy what is thrown in but only at a rate equal to the evil of the one thrown in. In other words the antichrist whom I assume is the most evil person to ever live will have to pay in torment for all he will have done, but those of lesser sins will suffer less, then cease to exist eternally.
The regret alone would be more then I could bear. To know what could have been and to know that it will never be, to have no hope! That scares me more than the fire.
I'm not teaching the above, it is only what I believe and I'm sharing it to help explain why I believe that the scriptures are being misunderstood and eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences.
That concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.
Just my opinion (although I believe it to be backed by scripture).
Quote (david @ Oct. 21 2006,09:31) Quote Hi W,
David's approach on this matter is to abandon any attempt at scriptural exegesis and to appeal to emotion. He seems to think we can design a God according to what niceness is.Nick, I know what the word “God” means. I know what the word “is” means. And I know what the word “love” means. And I know what it means if you put them all together. And it is not I who put them together. “God is love.” (The Bible)
The thing is Nick, the Bible, and not me tells us that God is just. He isn't just fair. He is the ultimate in justice. If justice is torturing someone for all time because of the sins of 70 years, then our justice systems are not just at all. We should be doing the same. Jehovah is a God of justice. The Bible says this, not me.
If it is justice to torture people for all time for the sins of a few years, then our human perceptions of justice are completely out of whack.
Someone sins against me and I guess I (who should imitate Jehovah's ways) would be just in lighting him on fire, but not enough to kill him and to do so for his entire life. No, not just his entire life. That would be too good. Forever.
Our court systems must be all screwed up. Jehovah's ways are just. And Jehovah tortures people for all time for the sins of 70 or 80 years. We look at people like hitler as sadistic. I guess we had that all wrong.You keep accusing me of trying to put human limitations of what God is capable of.
He isn't capable of lying. The Bible says it's impossible for God to lie. We should know this, without the bible saying it, because of his character. We should also be able to discern that because God IS love and because His word tells us to love our enemies, that he would not torture His enemies for all time in the worst way imaginable.This Satanic belief amazes me. It amazes me how people could believe it. It benefits Satan in that it paints Jehovah to be a cruel vindictive unloving, uncaring sadistic God. He is none of these things.
Nick, if you look up all those words, you'll find the definitions all apply to someone who burns someone else for purposes of torture.What benefit does God get out of burning people for all time? Where is the benefit to him? What love does it show to anyone?
It only serves Satan's interests.
And Nick, you keep saying I am avoiding scripture. You'll notice the points I discussed in my post above all have scriptures behind them. The scriptures behind them are very CLEAR. They aren't parables that can be taken more than one way. They aren't symbolic as revelation is. They are clear words easily understood by most 5 year olds. God is love.
Tell your child that. He'll understand. Then tell him that God burns people forever in unending fire alive. He'll have this confused look on his face. It doesn't fit, with what you told him before: God is love. It's a contradiction and a clear one. “God is love” isn't hard to understand.
Again, no parables or symbolisms. Easy simple language.Nick, if you have yet to discern this, let me say it again: How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)
That would be hypocritical, wouldn't it? God is not hypocritical. Another contradiction.
Again, this scripture is unclear. It isn't a parable that is hard for some to understand. It's not found in revelations symbols. It's pretty clear. Easy words. Easy to understand. God's word tells us to love our enemies.
Yet, if God tortures his enemies and for all time while alive none the less, we can assume, can't we, that he hates his enemies?
I mean, why else would you torture someone? Out of love?
Nick I love you…I'm going to light you on fire. No. Makes no sense.Nick, the bible doesn't contradict itself does it?
Since these verses are extremely simple and clear and not ambigous and not parabolic or a revelation, but easy to understand…then maybe your understanding of other places in the Bible is…well, it's just wrong.Unless the Bible contradicts itslelf. And we know it doesn't.
david
Hi david,
Most of my post was scripture.
Most of your post is rationalisation.We learn best from what is written rather than man's weak logic.
In the flesh we cannot escape this judgment we are condemmed. Only through grace and by faith (putting our trust in Gods work of the cross that when we repent of our ways and seek His that He has provided the way) can we escape this judgment and even be rewarded for the works of this life (not that our works save us but God rewards us for them after testing them by fire).
Hey Guys!
Nick good to discuss another subject!
How ever guys im inclined to agree more with David!
Nick you say “Matt 25
“41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”The body and the soul can be destroyed there.”
To say that the body and soul will be destroyed there could be assuming and speculation!
Jesus also said he could have called for legions of angels and did not!
You say “47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”
Which quotes Is 66 speaking of the end times”22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”
The Greek word for worm is skolex {sko'-lakes} which means a worm, spec. that kind which preys upon dead bodies Maggots! The maggots eat the flesh that is decaying until there is no more!
The Greek word for Quenched is sbennumi {sben'-noo-mee} which means:
1) to extinguish, quench
a) of fire or things on fire
1) to be quenched, to go out
b) Metaphor. to quench, to suppress, stifle
1) Of divine influence
Anything put on fire burns until it is no more or ashes!
Its amazing to me how that we have been taught the doctrine of eternal suffering and torment when Jesus never taught it. When Jesus used the word hell in almost every case he was referring to the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem. The Greek word for hell is geenna {gheh'-en-nah} which was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. The maggots were the type of the putrification of mans filth works in the flesh!
Jesus was giving us a metaphor. Not a literal place of suffering and torture for ever and ever!
Like David says in paraphrase there is no room in a loving heavenly Father for such evil. No man could do this to his child. How much more the Creator who loves all beyond our imagination so much that he gave his Son for us. Ah and before you say that’s the point there is no excuse because he gave Jesus! I say that to throw billions of people that he loves into a fiery inferno forever he would have to let his son suffer that torment also to pay the price for those of us who believe!
I don’t agree with Jehovahs witnesses on much but I do believe their doctrine on eternal punishment to a point!
Hi w
“The body and the soul can be destroyed there.Matt 10
” 28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. “Yes but isn't that the point. That the body and soul can be destroyed.
If so, that contradicts the eternal burning in flames doctrine because to suffer in a flame forever is not destruction, but eternal punishment for the living.
I too cannot believe that God would do such a thing. I believe it for 2 main reasons.
1) Scripture doesn't teach the Catholic doctrine of eternally buring in flames and screaming in pain for all eternity. It teaches that the wicked will be destroyed and will perish. This is taught not one or twice but tens of times, perhaps hundreds.
2) God is merciful and expects us to be merciful. If a merciful God tortures sinful men and woman, then should we also torture our children when they make mistakes and sin?
Surely if we tortured our own children, even if they were extremely rebellious, would not the law throw us into prison. Even sinners would be disgusted with someone that malicious and vindictive. Yet are we to believe that God does this, even though it is written many times in scripture that the wicked shall perish and the wicked shall be destroyed?
It reminds me of Christians who say that all who commit suicide will burn in hell forever. But when your child runs away from school and to home because he cannot hack it, do you not embrace him and are you not merciful to him? Just because some people cannot hack life, doesn't mean that the Father in Heaven will torture them for trying to run home or escape the school of hard knocks.
My opinion is that we should stick to scripture and the teachings of the apostles. These clear and unmistakeable teachings that teach that the wicked will persish, should never be tainted by our misunderstandings of visions and prophecies.
Quote If so, that contradicts the eternal burning in flames doctrine because to suffer in a flame forever is not destruction, but eternal punishment for the living. Yes T8, that is a HUGE CONTRADICTION. But here's where things get bizarre in the extreme. Nick believes that they are being destroyed, but forever. He believes they are apparently never actually in fact destroyed, but forever in the process of being destroyed. Hence a paradox. If something is forever being destroyed, it will never be destroyed.
So what is happening to it then? It's not being destroyed. This is a paradox. It's a contradiction. It goes against the meaning of the word “destroy.”
Nick tries to rationalize it, but he ends up in the surreal world of paradox where words no longer mean what they mean. He clings to his belief which he has created using about 3 scriptures that are either parables or symbolic and rejects the other 400 or so clear scriptures that deal with this subject. (I may have exagerated there, but only a little)T8:
“It teaches that the wicked will be destroyed and will perish. This is taught not one or twice but tens of times, perhaps hundreds.“Exactly. But Nick closes his eyes to those tens or hundreds or perhaps 400 scriptures so that he can cling to his understanding and interpretation of one or two parables.
What that would tell the average person is that Nick is trying really hard to justify this belief. But I have no idea why. It is slander of God to the highest degree.Quote
2) God is merciful and expects us to be merciful. If a merciful God tortures sinful men and woman, then should we also torture our children when they make mistakes and sin?
T8, Nick has plainly explained to me about 24 times that this is speculation and a rationalisation and human reasoning and we cannot attempt to understand God's ways.
T8, even though what we consider love and justice wouldn't allow it, God's view of love is so much higher than ours. His love and justice allows him to do such things T8. Or so Nick thinks.Quote Surely if we tortured our own children, even if they were extremely rebellious, would not the law throw us into prison. Even sinners would be disgusted with someone that malicious and vindictive. Yet are we to believe that God does this, even though it is written many times in scripture that the wicked shall perish and the wicked shall be destroyed?
Human Reasoning! T8, there's this one parable which I have interpreted to mean that God tortures people in fire forever for the sins of a few years. I reject the rest of the Bible and choose to only see that one scripture. Your human thinking won't work on me T8. Or so Nick says.Quote My opinion is that we should stick to scripture and the teachings of the apostles. These clear and unmistakeable teachings that teach that the wicked will persish, should never be tainted by our misunderstandings of visions and prophecies. Again, EXACTLY!
The visions, the symbolisms, the parables are not a good place to pick and choose how to believe things. There are hundreds of scriptures that are clear on this.
But Nick will look at his one scripture and try to make the other hundreds fit in with that parable.
I don't know how he justifies calling God a monstor who tortures people in fire? God will have an accounting with him….by burning him…just kidding. That's ridiculous. Even if you accuse God of something as horendous as this, he's still not going to by hypocritical and do something he has commanded us not to.'Have love for your enemies.' But I'm going to torture mine.–God.
No.
God is not hypocritical. He's not unjust. He's not unloving.
david
Nick,
It seems that you are not holding avery popular belief at the moment!
Consider this from THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE Doctrine of Endless Punishment BY THOMAS B. THAYER
Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good — PAUL
CHAPTER I.
THE PERIOD BEFORE THE LAW.
The following two positions will be admitted without question, it is believed, by all Christians.1st. If the doctrine of endless punishment be, as affirmed by its believers, absolutely and indispensably necessary to the preservation of virtue, and to perfect obedience to the laws of God; if this be the salutary and saving influence of the doctrine, then it constitutes one of the strongest possible reasons for its being revealed to man at the very earliest period of the world's history.
2d. If endless punishment be true, it is terribly true to all those who are in danger, – wherein is found another powerful reason why it should have been made known in the clearest manner, on the very morning of creation! In the clearest manner: it should not have been left in doubt, and obscurity, by the use of indefinite terms; but it should have been proclaimed in language which no man could misunderstand, if he would. Rather than that there should even be the possibility of a mistake in a matter of such vast and fearful moment, it should have been graven by special miracle into every soul that God sent into the world.
Let us, then, proceed to inquire if we have any such revelation of the doctrine. When God created Adam and Eve, and placed them in the garden of Eden, did He announce to them any law for their observance, having attached to it the penalty in question? Surely justice demanded, if He had forced them into being subject to this awful peril, that He should set out before them both the law and its punishment in the most specific manner. Did He do this? Where is the record of it? Read diligently the first and second chapters of Genesis, and see if anything of this sort is recorded there, in connection with the creation of man.
In chapter ii 15-17, we have this statement: “And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
This is the only record we have bearing on the subject; but there is no moral law here, which is declared as the future rule of life for them, and for all their posterity. They are simply commanded not to eat of the forbidden tree. Now, whether this is understood in a literal or allegorical sense, we cannot suppose that we have here the formal announcement of a divine law, which claimed the obedience of all mankind on the penalty of endless torment. We certainly cannot believe that God would open the great drama of our life on this earth, involving such infinite consequences, in such brief and doubtful language, and with so little specification where so much was needed.
As regards the penalty of disobeying the commandment, do we find any statement which can be mistaken for endless punishment? God says, “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die;” but this is very far from saying, “Thou shalt, after the death of the body, be subjected to the torments of an endless hell.”
We are told, to be sure, that this means “death temporal, death spiritual, and death eternal;” but where is the proof of it? So terrible a doctrine must not be assumed, but demonstrated by unquestionable evidence. Who can believe that God would reveal so frightful a punishment in language so easily misunderstood – by the single word “die,” a term employed in such a variety of senses, capable of such a wide latitude of usage?
Would any earthly parent, if the immortal salvation of his children were at stake, have been so careless of his speech? Would he have chosen language so liable to be mistaken? Would he not rather have announced the awful truth in words which would admit of no possible doubt? Beside, if the terrors of this punishment are so effectual in preventing transgression, this was another reason for a specific declaration of the consequences of disobedience. If the argument on this point is good, a plain, open threat of endless woe at the very gate of Eden, as they entered, might have kept them back from the forbidden tree, and saved them and our race from the dreadful evils which followed the introduction of sin into the world.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 21 2006,15:16) The problem David is that scripture appears to say just that as Nick pointed out. I believe that when sin was first found in satan it was only apparent to God. The trouble was, that God knew that the sin in satan would grow and ruin all of heaven itself. So He created the lake of fire to destroy the irredeemable (which I believe that those exposed to Gods glory and still allow sin a place cannot be redeemed). But if He were to throw satan in prior to his sins being apparent to the rest of heavens inhabitants, they would not see the Love and Justice of God as obviously satan was popular and I do not believe that satan had done anything openly evil (something heaven probably didn't understand anyway).
I believe it was at this point God created man with the intent purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.
We know that God has His faithful angels and we're told satan has his but I believe that there are still those sitting on the fence. But in Revelation where we are told that war breaks out in heaven and this is where I think the host of heaven have their fill of satan's ways and expel him and his from heaven
Now God who would have been reduced in stature had He have tried to explain His actions, is glorified for His wisdom, Holiness, Love and forgiveness. He has also gained more sons proven through fire than He lost to satan.
Now I believe that this lake of fire is God's justice and will destroy what is thrown in but only at a rate equal to the evil of the one thrown in. In other words the antichrist whom I assume is the most evil person to ever live will have to pay in torment for all he will have done, but those of lesser sins will suffer less, then cease to exist eternally.
The regret alone would be more then I could bear. To know what could have been and to know that it will never be, to have no hope! That scares me more than the fire.
I'm not teaching the above, it is only what I believe and I'm sharing it to help explain why I believe that the scriptures are being misunderstood and eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences.
That concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.
Just my opinion (although I believe it to be backed by scripture).
Seekintruth my thoughts exactly!! Too the TEE! Thanks!!HI Seeking, I agree with some of what you are saying. But I believe that the word “destroy” does mean destroy.
Quote In other words the antichrist whom I assume is the most evil person to ever live will have to pay in torment for all he will have done, but those of lesser sins will suffer less, then cease to exist eternally.
There are “many antichrists.” (the bible.)
They already existed in the time of the apostles.There is not Biblical reason for expecting one super antichrist, is there?
Quote So He created the lake of fire to destroy the irredeemable
I agree. To destroy.Quote I believe it was at this point God created man with the intent purpose of exposing what sin would do if allowed to run unchecked and to show the length He would go and the price He would pay to redeem His creation if it was possible.
Are you saying that God created man with the intent purpose of exposing sin?Quote Now I believe that this lake of fire is God's justice and will destroy what is thrown in but only at a rate equal to the evil of the one thrown in.
Much of what you're saying in that post has no basis in scripture, of course.Quote I'm not teaching the above, it is only what I believe and I'm sharing it to help explain why I believe that the scriptures are being misunderstood and eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences. I believe the scriptures are being misunderstood because “Christianity” is actually 9 parts Greek philosophy, 1 part Christianity.
I do believe that eternal consequences are of course what is meant. But I'm not sure that torment to completion makes sense, or people being tormented longer because they're more evil.
Here's what I think, regarding those scriptures:Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be TORMENTED with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and THE SMOKE OF THE THEIR TORMENT [Greek, basa·ni·smou′] ascendeth up FOR EVER AND EVER: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be TORMENTED day and night for ever and ever.”
What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer?
It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’
Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim.
At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ)
Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death, with, as you said, eternal consequences.This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.
I think we do well to consider how that word is used in Matthew and understand it's full meaning at the time it was written. Jailers were called tormenters. Something to think about.david
Hi david,
“I believe the scriptures are being misunderstood because “Christianity” is actually 9 parts Greek philosophy, 1 part Christianity.”Which parts of scripture come from greek philosophy?
I didn't SAY THAT SCRIPTURE was from GREEK philosophy Nick.
Read better. Maybe read slower.
I said that “Christianity” was 9 parts greek philospophy. And I put quotes around “Christianity” to show that I meant not Christianity but so called “Christianity.”
If you want to know which parts of “chrisitainty”–eternal torture in fire alive is one of those parts.
Why do you continually misrepresent what I say?
Hi david,
Thank you for clearing that up.
I am glad you accept all that is written as truth on this and other matters ahead of any denominations doctrines.David,
Quote There is not Biblical reason for expecting one super antichrist, is there?
I do believe that scripture teaches in Revelation that the beast is the culmination of an antichrist (with many before him).Quote Are you saying that God created man with the intent purpose of exposing sin? The scriptures say let no man say he is tempted by God. But I do believe that to be proven there must be the opportunity to dis-obey otherwise there is no choice. I do not believe God ever does anything that only accomplishes one thing but everything He does is intertwined with many others. I believe that this world was created to glorify God and yes I believe in part that God's plan was to show the results of sin in a setting which could be redeemed.
Quote Much of what you're saying in that post has no basis in scripture, of course. I agree some of it is interpretation but there is scripture that states that God's justice will be more tolerable for those with less truth. Of course the main difference between us has more to do with general interpretation of scripture then a verse here or there.
Quote worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) you've quoted “the dead know not any thing.” quite a few times as proof that many other references in scripture to the afterlife or future references are symbolic. Using your logic on the rest of the verse, being just as absolute: “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.” apparently we should have no memory of anyone that has died, but I remember a lot of people who have died.
I really was not trying to be a smart alec and I'm sorry if it came out that way. I know you believe your denomination has it right otherwise you would keep on looking. I know I have much to find out yet but at this point I do not see that the JW's are the holders of all truth and while I believe they have somethings right that many others have missed, there are somethings that the JW's are just as guilty of making scripture say what they want it to say as any of the other denominations.
I guess what I'm saying is with the doctrinal differences between us it will be hard for us to come to much of an agreement beyond what we have, other then agreeing to disagree
Quote (david @ Oct. 24 2006,05:16)
Yes T8, that is a HUGE CONTRADICTION. But here's where things get bizarre in the extreme. Nick believes that they are being destroyed, but forever. He believes they are apparently never actually in fact destroyed, but forever in the process of being destroyed. Hence a paradox. If something is forever being destroyed, it will never be destroyed.So what is happening to it then? It's not being destroyed. This is a paradox. It's a contradiction. It goes against the meaning of the word “destroy.”
To be destroyed and to perish means what it says.
Perishing and being destroyed are the process, but 'destroyed' and 'perish' are the outcome.Genesis 6:17
I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.If perish means perishing, then the old world is still here and alive, only decaying. However the truth is that the people from the old world were wiped off the face of the earth. They are no longer here. They are dead. Their bodies have returned to dust.
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish: The LORD's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish—vanish like smoke.So the wicked will perish and vanish.
Quote “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.” apparently we should have no memory of anyone that has died, but I remember a lot of people who have died. ECCLESIASTES 9:5,10
“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. . . .All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.”I see what you're saying. You remember a lot of people who have died. But perhaps you've also forgotten a lot of people who have died.
ECCLESIASTES 2:16
“For there is no more remembrance of the wise one than of the stupid one to time indefinite. In the days that are already coming in, everyone is certainly forgotten; and how will the wise one die? Along with the stupid one.”PSALM 109:15
“Let them prove to be in front of Jehovah constantly; And may he cut off the remembrance of them from the very earth;”JOB 7:10
“He will not return anymore to his house, And his place will not acknowledge him anymore.”Quote I really was not trying to be a smart alec and I'm sorry if it came out that way.
Nothing you say on here ever comes out in the wrong way. You seem the most humble lowly minded one on here. It is refreshing.david
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 23 2006,23:43) I guess what I'm saying is with the doctrinal differences between us it will be hard for us to come to much of an agreement beyond what we have, other then agreeing to disagree
Seems to me the only thing we can agree on is Yeshua and all that pertains to him. The reason the Ekklesia appears to be invisable is the division among the believers. The only thing we can seemingly be like minded on is Yeshua is the Son of YWHW, begotten by YWHW before time as we know it begotten. The rest is created. We know that YWHW is the one true Father of all.What does it say in Ephesians: one Body, one Spirit, one Hope, one Faith, one Baptism(what did John the baptizer say: I baptize with water but the one who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit), one Lord and one Father who is over all, through all and in all.
Notice there are seven one's here. Is it a coincidence are is it what completes the Ekklesia. Is the Ekklesia the gold, silver and precious stones in 1 Cor 3 and the wood, hay and stubble the branches that did not bear fruit.
Is the Ekklesia the 5 virgins who had oil(the Holy Spirit) in their vessels. They all had oil in their lamps but only 5 had it stored up in their vessels. Are their vessels made up of body, soul and spirit.
To enjoy fellowship with our heavenly Father our hearts must be pure before him. The best definition I have read for heart is it is made up of our mind, will, emotions(the soul or self) and our conscience(the leading edge of our spirit). When our minds are enlightened by the Word, our emotions are stirred, our conscience convicted and our will subdued. Is this not what happens when we are born anew by the Spirit. At that time our heart(spiritual not fleshly) is pure and we can have fellowship with Yeshua and our Father. Where there is Light there is no darkness, where there is sin there is darkness. Where there is darkness there is no light. Does sin, darkness prevent us from having fellowship with our Father? Do we imprison him in our spirit? Is division about oneness?
Paul wrote I was made a minister of the gospel according to the stewardship(economy) or YWHW. Which was given to me to complete the Word of YWHW. The mystery which has been hidden. This mystery is simply Yeshua in you, your hope of glory. In Colossians he write judge no man according to a new moon, sabbath, holy day, for all of these are shadows, the body is Christ. These were types, Yeshua is the reality of Truth. When we stopped quibling over types and focus on the reality of Truth then maybe the Ekklesia(the House of YWHW) will become a visable presence on this earth…………
I believe our Father will send Yeshua to gather the Ekklesia for the wedding supper when enough come out of the world to establish the Kingdom of YWHW on earth. I believe I read where an Ekklesia was called when enough wanted to form a new govt in a greek city. They came out of the city and when enough had come out they went back in and formed a new goverment.
Is this what happens when enough come out of the fold into the flock.
The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures(a place for feeding, He is the bread of Life), He leadeth me beside the still waters, the waters of rest(He is the living water). We eat and we drink and He restores our soul. Then He leads us down the path of righteousness(the right way) for His namesake(to express Yeshua is to express our Father. Are we not to be His Expression as Yeshua was? Are we not created in His image as Yeshua was?
We need to be transformed by the renewing of our mind to prove what is our Father's will. We need to eat and drink Yeshua, the Word, the reality of Truth, the Light, the Life and Grace. Yeshua declared the Father in John 1:1-14 in these ways. He became the Life giving Spirit. This Life brings us to the reality of Truth(the Word) and this Truth becomes the Way to our Father. Only through Yeshua can we approach our Father.
John 14 is the key to understanding our Father's Plan. Yeshua said in that day(John 20:22) you will know that I am in my Father, you in Me and I in you. Notice we are not in the Father except through Yeshua.
I'll stop for now with these considerations: However I am going to ask you to read John 14(you may already realize this) and what I have said is not new; When you read think of where in this chapter not as a place but as a person. I go to prepare a place for you that where I am there you may be. Where is Yeshua in this chapter in the Father and in us. What is the House of YWHW. We are living stones being built up as a Spiritual House. Everytime where is mentioned in this chapter it is the matter of person not a place.
Something to consider if you haven't already.
may we all grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Yeshua our Savior, the annointed one……….dc
Hi dc,
Good post thanks.
You say
“Is the Ekklesia the 5 virgins who had oil(the Holy Spirit) in their vessels. They all had oil in their lamps but only 5 had it stored up in their vessels.”
Is this the difference between Jn 20
“21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: “
and Lk 24 and acts 1-2-the Baptism of the Spirit?
“49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
Acts 1
” 8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”“2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. “
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