Eternal torment

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ July 26 2006,18:34)

Hey t8. Why the change in avatars? What does your change in avatars mean?

In some posts it was getting to be a bit of a war zone and I wanted to make sure that I had the full armour on.

I will probably change it back.

[Cubes]

Quote (t8 @ July 26 2006,04:41)

Quote (david @ July 26 2006,18:34) Hey t8.  Why the change in avatars?  What does your change in avatars mean? In some posts it was getting to be a bit of a war zone and I wanted to make sure that I had the full armour on. I will probably change it back.

t8!

Ha ha!

Please do not tarry in so doing!

DAVID: Thanks for asking. “Enquiring minds want to know.” I was going to ask today in “CHAT” but forgot.

[Cubes]

Quote (david @ July 26 2006,04:34)

Hi Nick.  From what I remember, you believe that they will never actually be destroyed, but will be in the state of being destroyed forever.  In other words–never actually destroyed.  “eternal destruction” for you means eternally being destroyed, and never actually facing destruction.  For me, eternal destruction means being destroyed with no hope of life again–eternally destroyed. The scripture doesn't say they don't die.  It says “their worm” doesn't die.  The fire “is not quenched.”  So, these worms must be superhuman.  Or perhaps, it's just saying that there is no way back from where they are coming.  It is a fire so consuming that it never dies.  Notice that scripture doesn't say “they” don't die.  It says the fire (and I belie elsewhere the smoke too) lasts forever.   Fire was used in Bible times as the most thorough means of destruction. Hence, Jesus used fire to illustrate the complete destruction of the wicked. PSALM 112:10 “The wicked one himself will see and certainly become vexed. He will grind his very teeth and actually melt away. The desire of the wicked ones will perish.”

Hi David:

I don't have time to devote to this study right now but wanted to say that from a human perspective, eternal torment seems like a very far out idea… and surely, there must be an end sometime to such torment.

Until you consider that since Adam, estimated 6,000 years ago, people have been suffering and dying and it gets worse with time, and as far as concerns this world, the worst is yet to come…., and suddenly, eternal torment doesn't seem like such an impossible far out idea.

All I know is that God has the means to back up whatever he purposes to do.

[kenrch]

ETERNAL DEATH
Consider this! Perhaps the most familiar and often-quoted verse in the Bible is understood by almost no one. John 3:16 states, “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Millions quote this verse while ignoring one of its key points.
Reread it. Notice that it exactly mirrors Romans 6:23! This time, eternal life is contrasted to perishing—death.
The Greek word translated perish is apollumi and it means, “to destroy fully, to die, lose, perish.” There is no doubt what these words mean. “Perishable” items, such as fruits and vegetables, are those that rot—until they are “fully destroyed” or “lost.” This is not hard to understand when we are talking about anything other than a human being. Those who receive salvation are promised that they “should not perish” but “have everlasting life”! If hell is a place of eternal torture, then the people suffering there have eternal life. But the verse says, “should not perish,” not “should not suffer eternal life in torment.”

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Weeping and gnashing of teeth does not sound like a pleasant pastime and it seems to go on awhile.

[Proclaimer]

Luke 13:28
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

In this context the weeping seems to imply a regret that they never made it to the Kingdom with Abraham etc. The gnashing of teeth could imply an intolerable existence, if so, they must surely be destroyed eventually to fulfill what is written.

When one is “thrown out” is that in reference to hades or the Lake of Fire?

[Proclaimer]

We know from scripture the following:

[david]

Quote

Hi David: I don't have time to devote to this study right now but wanted to say that from a human perspective, eternal torment seems like a very far out idea… and surely, there must be an end sometime to such torment. Until you consider that since Adam, estimated 6,000 years ago, people have been suffering and dying and it gets worse with time, and as far as concerns this world, the worst is yet to come…., and suddenly, eternal torment doesn't seem like such an impossible far out idea.

Hey Cubes.
The idea of eternal torment doesn't seem impossible to me at all. If Jehovah was a cruel vindictive God, an unjust God, than he could definitely do such a thing. Thankfully, He is not. “God is love.” And he is supremely “just.” Eternal torment is not an impossible thing. It's a thing that doesn't at all match Jehovah's personality or what the Bible says on the subject.

david

[Proclaimer]

I agree.

God allows us to suffer, and surely we do on this earth at times. After this life, the wicked await the judgement. I assume that they are not waiting in a 5 star hotel however.

I think they are in torment while they sleep if we are to take the rich man and lazarus parable literally the way Jesus said it.

But God says that the wicked will perish and they will be destroyed.

After their judgment, hades is thrown into the lake of fire. The same fire that destroys this world. I thank God for this act of mercy. That he doesn't allow them to live as sinners forever. What a sentence that would be, but thankfully God destroys them lest they not only suffer for all eternity, but become a blot on God's new creation where he will dwell in all.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

1 Corinthians 15:26-28
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

[Scripture Seeker]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 26 2006,06:54)

Hi, Weeping and gnashing of teeth does not sound like a pleasant pastime and it seems to go on awhile.

I agree Nick.

Why would the wicked be raised at all if they where just going to be sent back to there grave?

Everlasting is everlasting!

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [‛ôlâm] life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING [‛ÔLÂM] CONTEMPT.

If ‛ôlâm doesn’t mean everlasting what does???

H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: – always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

The worm will not die, and neither will the fire be quenched……  

Isa 66:24  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: FOR THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; AND THEY SHALL BE AN ABHORRING UNTO ALL FLESH.

Mat 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.

Mat 13:41  The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42  And shall CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

Can it get any clearer EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT?

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mar 9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, INTO THE FIRE THAT NEVER SHALL BE QUENCHED:
Mar 9:44  Where their worm dieth not, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Doesn’t sound like this fire is going to be quenched

Mar 9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46  WHERE THEIR WORM DIETH NOT, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

2Th 1:9  WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

And they will have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT….?

Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Is it just lights out for the devil? Is he really just going to be disappear into nothing?

Rev 20:10  AND THE DEVIL that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, AND SHALL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT FOR EVER AND EVER.

Hell is prepared for the Devil and his angels who will be tormented DAY and NIGHT FOREVER.  Hell is everlasting and is made for the devil BUT MAN CAN STILL GO THERE.

Mat 25:41  THEN SHALL HE SAY ALSO UNTO THEM ON THE LEFT HAND, DEPART FROM ME, YE CURSED, into EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:
Mat 25:42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

By the grace he has given us, let us always see Him in the least of his people. What we do to the least of His we do to him! Let our hearts flow with his compassion for the poor and needy.

Jdt 16:17  Woe to the nations that rise up against my kindred! the Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them in the day of judgment, IN PUTTING FIRE AND WORMS IN THEIR FLESH; AND THEY SHALL FEEL THEM, AND WEEP FOR EVER.

Here’s another clear example of the truth of Hell!

Luk 16:23  And IN HELL he lift up his eyes, BEING IN TORMENTS, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; FOR I AM TORMENTED IN THIS FLAME.

THE FLAME DOESN’T DESTROY HIM, IT TORMENTS HIM FOREVER!

Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, AND LIKEWISE LAZARUS EVIL THINGS: but now he is comforted, AND THOU ART TORMENTED.
Luk 16:28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, LEST THEY ALSO COME INTO THIS PLACE OF TORMENT.

God isn’t going to raise someone from the dead to warn us about Hell’s everlasting reality….

Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, THEY HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS; LET THEM HEAR THEM.
Luk 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: BUT IF ONE WENT UNTO THEM FROM THE DEAD, they will repent.
Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, NEITHER WILL THEY BE PERSUADED, THOUGH ONE ROSE FROM THE DEAD.

All praise and honor to Jesus for paying the ultimate price in his blood. Praise you Father for giving us your Son.
Truly there was no greater Love they could have given.

Love and blessings in the name of Jesus.

[NickHassan]

HI SS,
Remember that Lk 16 identifies the rich man as being in HADES and not the Lake of Fire.
Hades is cast into the Lake of fire.

[Proclaimer]

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Aug. 01 2006,04:09)

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: FOR THEIR WORM SHALL NOT DIE, NEITHER SHALL THEIR FIRE BE QUENCHED; AND THEY SHALL BE AN ABHORRING UNTO ALL FLESH. Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE.

I haven't had much time to get stuck into this topic as I would like, but to get started I thought I would comment on the verses you quoted Scripture Seeker.

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE means that it cannot be put out. But what is the fire? It is the “second death”. So the second death will be ongoing. What is the second death then? Is it seperation from God forever? Surely it encompasses that, for only God gives life. To be seperated from God is to be seperated from life surely. Eternal life is given only to the righteous.

In any case it actually says that “he will throughly purge his floor” and that “he will burn up the chaff” as you quoted Scripture Seeker.

When you throw something into a fire and it burns up, what does that actually mean?

I would have thought it means destruction. And of course this is what we find written many times regarding the wicked.

The wicked will be destroyed, as it is written. They will never again have life. But the second death has no power over the saints.

[Casey S Smith 29]

“Protestants, however should be quick to question any such notion of absolute religious certainty, The concept of the individual's responsibility before God is deeply ingrained in Protestant theology. We cannot say “the pope told me to do that” or “the prophet instructed me to believe that doctrine.” God hold us individually responsible for our beliefs and actions. This was one of the great scandals of the Reformation: the idea of the plowman and the merchant carrying and reading the Bible was unthinkable to the medeival Catholic theoligan. How could the layman understand religious things without asking the priest?”
“Many people fulfill their their longing for 'certainty' in religious matters by swearing allegiance to a particular leader or system. For example Roman Catholics find the idea of an infallible pope very 'comforting,' for when things get confusing they always have a source of certainty and absolute authority to turn to. In a similar many Mormons look to the Prophet and the Apostles in Salt Lake City, and Jehovah's Witnesses look tothe Governing Body in Watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.” – James R White, King James Only Controversy pg 94 paragraph's one and two.

Well, that pretty much says it all I would have to say…Casey Sean Smith

[Proclaimer]

Can a mortal be eternally tortured while being conscious?
I would have thought that mortal meant not being able to be aware eternally, but only for a time.

Job 4:17
'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker?

Job 10:5
Are your days like those of a mortal or your years like those of a man,

Isaiah 51:12
“I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mortal men, the sons of men, who are but grass,

Ezekiel 31:14
Therefore no other trees by the waters are ever to tower proudly on high, lifting their tops above the thick foliage. No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height; they are all destined for death, for the earth below, among mortal men, with those who go down to the pit.

Romans 1:23
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

[kenrch]

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 07 2006,09:53)

Can a mortal be eternally tortured while being conscious? I would have thought that mortal meant not being able to be aware eternally, but only for a time. Job 4:17 'Can a mortal be more righteous than God? Can a man be more pure than his Maker? Job 10:5 Are your days like those of a mortal or your years like those of a man, Isaiah 51:12 “I, even I, am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fear mortal men, the sons of men, who are but grass, Ezekiel 31:14 Therefore no other trees by the waters are ever to tower proudly on high, lifting their tops above the thick foliage. No other trees so well-watered are ever to reach such a height; they are all destined for death, for the earth below, among mortal men, with those who go down to the pit. Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

For what purpose would a God of love burn someone forever and ever and ever? Seems like that would be pure evil more so than Hitler.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, it burneth as a furnace; and all the proud, and all that work wickedness, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith Jehovah of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the sun of righteousness arise with healing in its wings; and ye shall go forth, and gambol as calves of the stall.
**Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I make, saith Jehovah of hosts**.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers; lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Burn them up! Ashes under feet! Nothing eternal about this, is there?

[david]

Quite so Kenrch. Those who believe that Jehovah burns people alive forever for the sins of a few years know neither God, nor his lover, nor his justice, nor the Bible.

1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?

2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?

4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?

5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)

6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?

8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?

9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?

10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?

david

[david]

How happy we are not to have a morbid fear of a cruel God that totures his enemies for all time, but rather, we see God's sense of justice in his destruction of the wicked and his love for his servants who will not have to contend with the wicked for all time.

[NickHassan]

Hi w,
Try this

[david]

Have you ever seen someone tortured? Deliberate torture is sickening and abhorrent. What, though, of torture inflicted by God? Can you imagine such a thing? Yet, this is exactly what is implied by the teaching of hellfire, an official doctrine in many religions.

Imagine, for a moment, the following horrific scene: A person is being roasted on a hot iron plate. In his agony he screams for mercy, but nobody listens. The torture goes on and on, hour after hour, day after day—without pause!

Whatever crime the victim may have committed, would not your heart go out to him? What of the one who ordered the torture? Could he be a loving person? In no way! Love is merciful and shows pity. A loving father may punish his children, but he would never torture them!

Nevertheless, many religions teach that God tortures sinners in an eternal hellfire. This, it is claimed, is divine justice. If that is true, who created that terrible place of eternal torment? And who is responsible for the excruciating agonies inflicted there? The answers would seem obvious. If such a place really exists, then God would have to be the creator of it, and he would be responsible for what happens there.

Can you accept that? The Bible says: “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would a God of love inflict torture that even humans with any measure of decency find revolting? Surely not! (See points # 2 and 3 above)

Is this teaching of eternal torment logical? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone perpetrated extreme wickedness for his whole lifetime, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the limited number of sins that he can commit in a lifetime. (See point #4 above)

Who knows the truth about what happens after we die? Only God can reveal this information, and he has done so in his written Word, the Bible, referred to above. Here is what the Bible says: “As the [beast] dies, so the [man] dies; and they all have but one spirit . . . All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20) There is no mention here of a fiery hell. Humans return to dust—to nonexistence—when they die.

In order to be tormented, an individual has to be conscious. Are the dead conscious? No. “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) It is impossible for the dead, “conscious of nothing at all,” to experience the agonies of hellfire.

I believe it is a Satanic teaching designed to turn us away from God. I believe it is a disgrace and blasphemy and slander towards God in the highest degree to say that Jehovah, a God of love, a God of justice, would do such an horrifically unjust thing.

david

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
David's approach on this matter is to abandon any attempt at scriptural exegesis and to appeal to emotion. He seems to think we can design a God according to what niceness is.

[Author]

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