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I do not believe that wicked men will burn (consciously) forever.
First off, the spirit (the part that makes the soul live) goes back to God who gave it. If God lets the wicked live in pain for eternity, then it would be fair to say that his breath (life) would have to remain in them and consequently the breath (spirit) of God would also exist in the Lake of Fire.Secondly, there are quite a lot of scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked. The word 'perish and 'wicked' is also used together many times. These scriptures are very clear about the fate of the wicked. They are not symbolic rather clear teachings.
Thirdly, eternal life is given to the righteous. The wicked do not have eternal life even if it is in a constant state of pain I would have thought. To live is to be conscious surely?
There is even a scripture that talks of the wicked suffering the same fate as animals or beasts. Yet I find it nowhere in scripture where it says that God will torture animals forever once they are dead.
Anyway there are scriptures that seem to contradict the scriptures that talk about the wicked perishing and being destroyed as Nick points out. I would like to look closely at these some time soon, (when I have time). But for now I would like to stress this scripture again as I think it puts this subject into perspective.
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.So it seems clear that the judgement fire will destroy everything i.e., this present universe and the wicked. They are both destroyed in the same way.
I guess if we can make an argument to say that the wicked will not perish or be destroyed then we could equally apply that to the universe, because it clearly says “everything will be destroyed in this way”.
Thanks for listening.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 25 2006,00:25) Hi,
Read Rev 19.20f
Follow this with Rev 20 2-3 and then look at Rev 20.10How long are the humans, the beast and the false prophet shown to be in the lake of fire?
Hi Malcolm,
What do you think of these matters?Hi t8,
Obviously the heavens mentioned here must be the atmosphere etc,and not the throne of God.
I wonder what scripturally is a THING?
Is it matter, created and visible?
Does it relate to spirit beings too?
Who knows?Yes I too think it is talking of the heavens, or physical universe and not the throne, third heaven, paradise, or whatever it is called.
Quote (t8 @ June 25 2006,07:28) I do not believe that wicked men will burn (consciously) forever.
First off, the spirit (the part that makes the soul live) goes back to God who gave it. If God lets the wicked live in pain for eternity, then it would be fair to say that his breath (life) would have to remain in them and consequently the breath (spirit) of God would also exist in the Lake of Fire.Secondly, there are quite a lot of scriptures that talk about the destruction of the wicked. The word 'perish and 'wicked' is also used together many times. These scriptures are very clear about the fate of the wicked. They are not symbolic rather clear teachings.
Thirdly, eternal life is given to the righteous. The wicked do not have eternal life even if it is in a constant state of pain I would have thought. To live is to be conscious surely?
There is even a scripture that talks of the wicked suffering the same fate as animals or beasts. Yet I find it nowhere in scripture where it says that God will torture animals forever once they are dead.
Anyway there are scriptures that seem to contradict the scriptures that talk about the wicked perishing and being destroyed as Nick points out. I would like to look closely at these some time soon, (when I have time). But for now I would like to stress this scripture again as I think it puts this subject into perspective.
2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.So it seems clear that the judgement fire will destroy everything i.e., this present universe and the wicked. They are both destroyed in the same way.
I guess if we can make an argument to say that the wicked will not perish or be destroyed then we could equally apply that to the universe, because it clearly says “everything will be destroyed in this way”.
Thanks for listening.
Hi t8:What do you make of the verses below, for example?
Luke 10:Luk 10:10 “But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say,
Luk 10:11 'Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off {in protest} against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
Luk 10:12 “I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.
Luk 10:13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
Luk 10:14 “But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you.Thanks Cubes.
My thoughts on this are as follows:
These verses are speaking of the judgment, not punishment/destruction/second death. The judgement is more tolerable, in other words more favourable or less severe.
We are all judged and have to stand before the judgement seat of Christ. Some will have more or should I say worse judgement than others.
As a believer I think it is wise to let God judge us as much as possible while we are here. This means we will hopefully have a more tolerable judgment there. I personally think that if we desire to have a 100 fold return in the next age, then we should also expect to be judged more harshly while we are here.
Also I believe that God's judgment comes from his grace. It may seem harsh, but it is there to show wrongs and to correct them. But it is also there to pronounce reward for the righteous.
Some believers will receive 100 fold, others 60 or 30. Still others will have no reward, but yet will be saved because they were found on the true foundation.
Hi,
Hopefully we do not need to know too much about what condemnation means if we are found in Christ. For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, they have already passed from death into life.[Rom 8, Jn 5]
Jn 3.30
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life;but he who does not obey the Son does not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him”Hi t8,
In this case wouldn't the outcome of the judgment for those that are condemned also reflect degrees of severity depending on what they've done?
Hi cubes,
Since the last hope for all men is the Sheep and Goat judgement then those who fail there seem to share the same fate-the wrath of God.The outcome for the wicked is 'destruction'. They will 'perish'.
But we perhaps need to define those 2 words to understand their punishment.
Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,06:04) The outcome for the wicked is 'destruction'. They will 'perish'. But we perhaps need to define those 2 words to understand their punishment.
Hi t8:What's getting to me is this: if the inhabitants of Sodom were destroyed by fire and brimstone, and that's awful enough, and Jesus says that the fate of others would be worse than that, then wouldn't that define the meaning of the words “perish/destruction” in yet other ways than was previously understood by the examples we had?
Just wondering?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2006,05:51) Hi cubes,
Since the last hope for all men is the Sheep and Goat judgement then those who fail there seem to share the same fate-the wrath of God.
I agree…Hi Cubes, I appreciate your questions and scrutiny.
First thing I want to point out is that I am absolutely teachable and if I can see plainly that the wicked do not perish or are not destroyed then I will of course have no choice but to accept that. But I see too many scriptures that say the wicked will indeed perish.
Even the most quoted (or one of the most quoted) verses enforces this:
“For God so loved the world ……… whoever believes on him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
It appears to me that the ultimate outcome is everlasting life, or to perish/destruction. We know that the world will also perish in the same way, and I cannot see the world still existing, even if it is left in a forgotten dimension with the wicked in some kind of eternal fire that never destroys.
Of course before destruction there would surely be suffering for the wicked before their ultimate fate.
When I think of the rich man and Lazarus, we see that the rich man was in torment and this was before judgement. I assume that the final judgement for the rich man hasn't happened yet.
My personal belief is that God destroys the wicked which in my opinion is his last act of grace to the wicked. From there they will never be given life. That is their destiny. In that sense they are like the beasts who are given life for a time. The spirits/souls of the wicked decend down like the beasts. The spirits/souls of the righteous ascend up.
In both cases there is still existence and a journey to be taken before the wages are paid.
Hi all, I believe in numerous places, there is a clear choice given:
Two roads: One leads to “life.” One to “destruction.”
MATTHEW 7:13-14
““Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.”Here we are encouraged to go in through the narrow gate. We are warned of the consequences of following the other path: “Destruction.”
If he really wanted to be fair and to really prevent people from this wrong path, wouldn't he have said that eternal torment awaits those who do not choose correctly? Well Jesus is fair and he really does want people to choose correctly. He spoke truthfully when he said “destruction” awaited those who went down the wrong path.Quote (t8 @ July 20 2006,07:44) Hi Cubes, I appreciate your questions and scrutiny. First thing I want to point out is that I am absolutely teachable and if I can see plainly that the wicked do not perish or are not destroyed then I will of course have no choice but to accept that. But I see too many scriptures that say the wicked will indeed perish.
Hi t8,Similarly.
I agree with all that has been shared on this page so far, by Nick, yourself and David. Whatever the duration, it ain't going to be good to stand accused by the Son of God and we thank God for his provision in Christ.
As time permits in the future, I hope to look further into this topic. I welcome your point of view and those of others. I shall argue for the position of the other side with the objective of coming into a surer grasp of the truth, whether that happens to be what you've shown so far or what I've understood it to be.
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Prayerfully, in the Beloved
Hi,
I agree destruction is the result but we do not know how long this takes but know it takes longer than 1000 years for the beast and the false prophet.“And there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”
seems to be tied in with this second death. Can anyonre explain how such things occur with instant destruction?“Their worm will not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Hey t8. Why the change in avatars? What does your change in avatars mean?
Hi Nick. From what I remember, you believe that they will never actually be destroyed, but will be in the state of being destroyed forever. In other words–never actually destroyed. “eternal destruction” for you means eternally being destroyed, and never actually facing destruction. For me, eternal destruction means being destroyed with no hope of life again–eternally destroyed.The scripture doesn't say they don't die. It says “their worm” doesn't die. The fire “is not quenched.” So, these worms must be superhuman. Or perhaps, it's just saying that there is no way back from where they are coming. It is a fire so consuming that it never dies. Notice that scripture doesn't say “they” don't die. It says the fire (and I belie elsewhere the smoke too) lasts forever.
Fire was used in Bible times as the most thorough means of destruction. Hence, Jesus used fire to illustrate the complete destruction of the wicked.
PSALM 112:10
“The wicked one himself will see and certainly become vexed. He will grind his very teeth and actually melt away. The desire of the wicked ones will perish.”
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