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Hi david,
The second death is not the same as the first. It is the lake of fire. These are not my words david so do not attack me. They are the words of the bible you claim to love.Hi david,
Rev 20 14
” Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire”Given that Hades as described by Jesus in Lk 16 is a waiting place then what of “death ” here? It is not the “second death” and that continues in Revelation as the lake of fire in the next verse. Is it the “death” that is “swallowed up in victory”, the last enemy to be destroyed by King Jesus in 1 Cor 15.26? I do not think so as that is the curse on every individual man since Genesis.
I think it is Sheol, the place of the “dead”, or more specifically “the bosom of Abraham” shown with Hades by Jesus in Lk 16. Both places serve a temporary purpose until judgement and there will be no need for either after then, so it seems appropriate that both are thrown together into the lake of fire.
Hi ,
Compare Hab 2.5
“…He enlarges his appetite like Sheol, and he is like death, never satisfied”
Is 38.18f
“For Sheol cannot thank You, death cannot praise You; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness. It is the living who give thanks to you as I do today”
Hos 14.14f
” Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol? Shall I ransom them from death? O death where are your thorns? O Sheol, where is your sting?”Certainly death and Sheol are used interchangeably here I have seen this used to justify a doctrine that Sheol therefore is only another name for the common fate of all men, or a common allegorical grave. I offer you the possibility that the reverse is true. Sheol is a place for souls and “death” is another name for this place as well as it's more common meanings.
Quote The second death is not the same as the first. It is the lake of fire. These are not my words david so do not attack me. They are the words of the bible you claim to love.
I realize this Nick. The second death is eternal destruction.Hi david,
What is the difference between destruction and eternal destruction? Is there any destruction that is not permanent? In your view then they mean the same thing? So the word “eternal” is superfluous?Scripture does not waste words or use them unnecessarily.
That is because the term relates to continued destruction for eternity.
“continued destruction for eternity,” Nick?
Well then it's not really destruction is it?
If you start destroying something now, and are still destroying it a million years from now, or a billion or a million billion, or a billion billion, or a ….. well, eternity just doesn't end does it. So neither would the destruction end. Thus, it would never actually be destroyed (put out of existence).
Common sense and logic based on the simple meaning of these words does not allow for your beliefs.Does eternal destruction mean:
1. Destroyed forever?
2. Being destroyed forever?IF SOMETHING IS BEING DESTROYED FOREVER, THEN IT IS NEVER ACTUALLY DESTROYED, AND THUS A CONTRADICTION. You are thus wrong.
As far as your argument that there is no difference between “destruction” and “eternal destruction,” well, that's just wrong.
The Bible indicates that not all destruction is eternal. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Hebrew word ´avad·dohn´ (destruction) is used twice to parallel “Sheol.” (Job 26:6; Pr 15:11) The prophet Zephaniah spoke of the destruction of Assyria, whereas Ezekiel said that the Assyrians would go down to Sheol. (Zep 2:13; Eze 32:21, 22) When speaking of the destruction of the rebels Dathan and Abiram, Moses wrote that they went down “alive into Sheol.” (Nu 16:31, 33) Since Sheol in the Bible denotes the common grave of mankind from which there will be a resurrection, it is evident that not all destruction—not even all destruction at the hand of God—is necessarily eternal.
This is also illustrated by what happened to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and their inhabitants. Jude indicated that these cities were everlastingly destroyed. (Jude 7; compare 2Pe 2:6.) However, Jesus’ words recorded in Matthew 10:15 show that at least some of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah will receive a resurrection.David
Quote So it is bounded by time then?
By definition, “eternity” goes on forever. It doesn't go on for three seconds or five days. It cannot stop tommorow or in a year. So it is bound or restricted as to when it will end. In fact, eternity has no end.
I'm not really sure where you were going with that question or line of reasoning.Nick that scripture tells us what the “punishement” or “penalty” is: It is destruction. It is destruction without any hope of life–“eternal destruction.”
The punishment is not to be punished forever. The punishement is destruction. This is what this very simple un-allagorical, un-parabolical (made up words) scripture says. It is straight forward. It is clear.I'm not sure what “borer” is. It's not in my dictionary.
As for a house being destroyed by fire or by “borer,” if the intent (or punishement in our comparison) is to 'destroy' the house (person) so that it will not ever be rebuilt (brought back to life), then ….[[Actually, until I know what “borer” is, I'd prefer not comment on this.]]Let's not put this in human terms, as though we bore the responsibility of carrying out the “punishment” of “eternal destruction.”
WHAT IF GOD WANTED TO DESTROY THE HOUSE IN QUESTION? He might use the symbol of fire (because we understand then when a house is burnt down, no amount of repairs will bring that house back) or he might even use actual fire to destroy the house, but the big question is this:
If God wanted to destroy a house–If that was his purpose: Eternal destruction for the house. WOULD IT TAKE AN ETERNITY?
If you wanted to destroy your old house, it most likely wouldn't even take you an eternity. And you are not God. If God or even you wants to destroy a house, (or a person) using fire, or the symbol of fire, if that was the “punishment”–“destruction” would it take an eternity to accomplish this destruction?What is a borer?
Hi david,
A borer is like your termites.
You constantly try to apply physical knowledge to spiritual things.You imply that God can and so does always destroy everything instantly. But our only information on destruction is what we see on earth – material things being burned to nothing in little time. We cannot apply these principles to what we do not and cannot know-how things happen in the spiritual world.
We have never seen or touched souls or angels. How can we teach in any depth on their nature except according to what is revealed about them in The Word-unless we head off into speculation.
The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. In it God can destroy our body and our soul.
“If “eternal destruction” means “destruction forever” then the term is surely an oxymoron. Only you teach “potential life to be given in the future ” and not the bible, so it can only be understood in your bizarre and unbiblical terms. We who teach no such dogma are all left in the dark.
The term “forever” is very frequently used in the NT and OT. If this is what God had meant then surely this is the word He would have chosen.
Hiya Nick, you wrote
Hi Bastion,
Speaking of Isaiah, what do you make of the scripture at the end of Isaiah that Jesus quoted in Mk 43-48? He was speaking of the lake of fire.What book did you mean Mk 43:48 does not exist.
Bastian
Hi bastion,
Sorry.
Mk 9.43f
” If you hand sauses you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go to hell, into the unquenchable fire[where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched]. If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than having two feet, to be cast into hell[where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched] If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched”
The hell spoken of here is the lake of fire.Hey guys,
It is evident that Jesus used Gehenna (“hell” in your Bible) as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible. (Mt 10:28; Lu 12:4, 5) The scribes and Pharisees as a wicked class were denounced as ‘subjects for Gehenna.’ (Mt 23:13-15, 33) To avoid such destruction, Jesus’ followers were to get rid of anything causing spiritual stumbling, the ‘cutting off of a hand or foot’ and the ‘tearing out of an eye’ figuratively representing their deadening of these body members with reference to sin.—Mt 18:9; Mr 9:43-47; Col 3:5; compare Mt 5:27-30.Jesus also apparently alluded to Isaiah 66:24 in describing Gehenna as a place “where their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mr 9:47, 48) That the symbolic picture here is not one of torture but, rather, of complete destruction is evident from the fact that the Isaiah text dealt, not with persons who were alive, but with “the CARCASSES of the men that were transgressing” against God. If, as the available evidence indicates, the Valley of Hinnom was a place for the disposal of garbage and carcasses, fire, perhaps increased in intensity by the addition of sulfur (compare Isa 30:33), would be the only suitable means to eliminate such refuse. Where the fire did not reach, worms, or maggots, would breed, consuming anything not destroyed by the fire. On this basis, Jesus’ words would mean that the destructive effect of God’s adverse judgment would not cease until complete destruction was attained.
The people of Jesus time who heard these words would have understood. They knew what Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom was. It was basically a garbage dump, for refuse.
Of course, before Jesus' time, Judean Kings Ahaz and Manasseh engaged in idolatrous worship there, which included the making of human sacrifices by fire to Baal. (2Ch 28:1, 3; 33:1, 6; Jer 7:31, 32; 32:35) Later, to prevent such activities there in the future, faithful King Josiah had the place of idolatrous worship polluted, particularly the section called Topheth.—2Ki 23:10.
Some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment.
*HOWEVER, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna.
It may be noted that God prophetically decreed that the Valley of Hinnom would serve as a place for mass disposal of dead bodies rather than for the torture of live victims. (Jer 7:32, 33; 19:2, 6, 7, 10, 11)
By the time Jesus said his words at Mark 9, it was understood by all that the Valley of Hinnom was used as a place for the disposal of waste matter from the city of Jerusalem. (At Mt 5:30 Ph renders géenna as “rubbish heap.”)In Bible times the most thorough means of destruction in use was fire. (Jos 6:24; De 13:16) Hence Jesus at times used the term “fire” in an illustrative way to denote the complete destruction of the wicked. (Mt 13:40-42, 49, 50; compare Isa 66:24; Mt 25:41.)
2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the PUNISHMENT OF ETERNAL DESTRUCTION* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)
Hey Nick,
Here's a scripture I'm not sure if we really looked at:
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)dave
Quote (david @ Dec. 04 2005,23:03) Hey guys,
It is evident that Jesus used Gehenna (“hell” in your Bible) as representative of utter destruction resulting from adverse judgment by God, hence with no resurrection to life as a soul being possible.
Hi david,
Do you mean that some are not resurrected at all?Do not all face judgement or do you think the judgement was in them dying in the first place?
Or do you mean they are not resurrected in the first resurrection to unto eternal life?
Hi,
Mk 9.47
“And if your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell, where their worm does not die and the Fire is not quenched”So when the NASB uses the word 'hell” it means geena, the Lake of Fire. So this is after the second resurrection, the fate of the goats as shown in Mat 25.and Matt 10.28. The scripture quoted from the OT here is Is 66.24. If worms do not die there then what becomes of the soul of man?
Every KNEE shall bow, subservience, every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ, He is Lord! does every mean some? or none? And if it means some, HOW NICK HASSAN DID YOU< AND I MEAN YOU HAVE ANYTHING IN YOUR BEING THAT WOULD CONFESS JESUS CHRIST IS LORD< EXCEPT BY FORTUNATE CIRCUMSTANCES< YOU WERE CHOSEN BEFORE IRANIANS!
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