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Quote (chosenone @ April 18 2007,15:25) Eternal Torment? Where in scripture does it say that? Most translations in most bibles have mis-translated the word eon as eternal. If you would identify the scriptue used, I would like to know and check it in the Interlinear Scripure Analyser as to accuracy. Blessings.
Read Revelation 20 friend.Quote (acertainchap @ June 30 2007,11:45) Quote (chosenone @ April 18 2007,15:25) Eternal Torment? Where in scripture does it say that? Most translations in most bibles have mis-translated the word eon as eternal. If you would identify the scriptue used, I would like to know and check it in the Interlinear Scripure Analyser as to accuracy. Blessings.
Read Revelation 20 friend.
I assume you refer to Rev.20:10. This is a translation error in most versions. I should read….. tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. Not ….for ever and ever.Blessings.
I remember this one time, my son got involved in drugs and did some very bad things. So I lit him on fire.
Looking back, it was the just, loving, wise thing to do. And how could a God that does similarly condemn me for it? That would be hypocritical.
Anyway, none of this is based in fact. (I don't have a son, nor would I ever even consider doing such a thing.) Nor is the eternal torment of the wicked by a God of love and justice. It is simply not taught in scripture. Yes, there are those accounts in the highly symbolic book of revelation. Combine that with a parable that you take the way you choose and we have something–a satanic myth that brings great reproach and slander upon the name of our holy and clean heavenly Father.
It is a major theme throughout scripture that the wicked will perish and the wicked will be destroyed. We cannot argue against this truth without seriously questioning scripture itself.
Interpretations of prophecy is however a different thing.
So the question I would like some people to think about is this:
Is clear teaching clear, or not?
How many prophecies happened the way you thought they would?Which do we trust more, accepting a clear biblical teaching or your understanding of a prophecy?
Here are some clear biblical teachings to consider:
2 Peter 2:12
But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.2 Corinthians 4:3
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.2 Thessalonians 2:10
and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.2 Peter 3:11-13
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.NOTE the connection in the last 2 verses.
Now to interpret prophecy correctly, it would have to be in line with the scriptures above. If not, then we have contradiction.
Quote (david @ July 03 2007,14:55) I remember this one time, my son got involved in drugs and did some very bad things. So I lit him on fire. Looking back, it was the just, loving, wise thing to do. And how could a God that does similarly condemn me for it? That would be hypocritical.
Anyway, none of this is based in fact. (I don't have a son, nor would I ever even consider doing such a thing.) Nor is the eternal torment of the wicked by a God of love and justice. It is simply not taught in scripture. Yes, there are those accounts in the highly symbolic book of revelation. Combine that with a parable that you take the way you choose and we have something–a satanic myth that brings great reproach and slander upon the name of our holy and clean heavenly Father.
Hi david,
Logic rules now?
Why not scripture?
JW doctrine again.So you are a nice guy.
God is a nice guy like you.
You woundn't harm even a fly.
God would not be any different.Did your God order the anihilation of the Amelekites?
No Nick.
Scripture rules. And the many scriptures that speak of God's JUSTICE,
his LOVE, his WISDOM, mean very little to some.Some don't understand the word justice and haven't the faintest concept of love. Yet, scripture speaks of these attributes of God.
Quote Did your God order the anihilation of the Amelekites? “anihilation.” Yes, he destroyed them.
Anihilation and burning someone for all eternity are in no way on the same scale. They're not comparable.
Me killing a fly is closer to God wiping out the Amelikites, then him wiping out the Amelikites is to him burning even one puppy for all time, much less a human.
They are not on the same scale.
Quote So you are a nice guy.
God is a nice guy like you.
You woundn't harm even a fly.
God would not be any different.A better analogy:
I am a nice guy and I command everyone in the universe to be nice.
I, as a nice guy wouldn't take a child and pour gasoline all over it, and light a match. Me, being a nice guy, is having trouble even conceiving the thought. Oh, but I don't just let the fire kill the child. I extinguish it quickly so I can light it again, and again, and again, for all time.
Wait, that doesn't seem nice. Seems somewhat satanical, vindictive, serving no real purpose but hate…The God of all the earth, the judge of all the earth, has the clear and definite right, to remove anyone from the earth he so chooses. He has done this in the past, a couple times.
This in no way at all compares to what you suggest–the eternal live torture of people for the sins of a few years.
This in no way fits with the God of justice.
I really don't think you know God, at all.
This is a reproachful, satanic, slanderous belief.
I ask you to trace it's origin, through time, through Greece, to Babylon, I believe.
Funny how Babylon the Great in general hold to this belief. What reproach they have brought upon our Father's name.Disgusting!
david
Hello David! You are so right in what you Posted. My Husband and I have that believe and I cant understand how come some belief that God is a merciful God, but yet He lets People burn for ever in Hell. It just not even makes sense to me, and mostly not according to Scripture. We own a Book called “THE TWO BABYLONS” By Alexander Hislop. Have you read it? Thank you for your Post. We have not met to many People that believe like we do. Mrs. IM4Truth
Another false doctrine from the RUC (Roman Universal Church).
If anyone runs to God for fear of burning forever and ever then how could their love for God be true?
I caught my pastor in a lie then the church was teaching the prosperity message, you know (or maybe not) where You speak things into existance! Well that didn't sit with my spirit at all going through all this plus the pastor's lie I did what I should have done from the beginning. I sought God.
The job I had at the time had three shifts while working the graveyard sghift (10pm to 6am) with no one there but me and the Lord I knelt down and said ” Lord I don't care if the truth is that I'm going to burn for eternity, I want the Truth.” The very first thing that was revealed was there is NO eternal burning of My children no matter how bad they are they are simply destroyed never to exisit again.
Eternal hell fire is used to scare people. It is any wonder why their are atheist?
IHN&L,
Ken
(Luke 12:5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [GEHENNA]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Quote (kenrch @ July 09 2007,11:41) Another false doctrine from the RUC (Roman Universal Church). If anyone runs to God for fear of burning forever and ever then how could their love for God be true? I caught my pastor in a lie then the church was teaching the prosperity message, you know (or maybe not) where You speak things into existance! Well that didn't sit with my spirit at all going through all this plus the pastor's lie I did what I should have done from the beginning. I sought God.
The job I had at the time had three shifts while working the graveyard sghift (10pm to 6am) with no one there but me and the Lord I knelt down and said ” Lord I don't care if the truth is that I'm going to burn for eternity, I want the Truth.”
The very first thing that was revealed was there is NO eternal burning of My children no matter how bad they are they are simply destroyed never to exisit again.
Eternal hell fire is used to scare people. It is any wonder why their are atheist?
If anyone runs to God for fear of burning forever and ever then how could their love for God be true?*This is true.
I caught my pastor in a lie then the church was teaching the prosperity message, you know (or maybe not) where You speak things into existance! Well that didn't sit with my spirit at all going through all this plus the pastor's lie I did what I should have done from the beginning. I sought God.
*Yes.
The job I had at the time had three shifts while working the graveyard sghift (10pm to 6am) with no one there but me and the Lord I knelt down and said ” Lord I don't care if the truth is that I'm going to burn for eternity, I want the Truth.”
The very first thing that was revealed was there is NO eternal burning of My children no matter how bad they are they are simply destroyed never to exisit again.
*How can you be sure it wasn't the devil or an evil spirit? I hope that it was God whom spoke to your heart.
Eternal hell fire is used to scare people. It is any wonder why their are atheist?
*I hope that it isn't real. I hope that belief or disbelief in it won't affect anyone's Salvation.
Can you disprove and/or explain the meaning of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'25 “But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 “He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 “Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 ” 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 “He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' “
*Please respond to this entire message.
Quote I ask you to trace it's origin, through time, through Greece, to Babylon, I believe.
Funny how Babylon the Great in general hold to this belief. What reproach they have brought upon our Father's name.–myself
We own a Book called “THE TWO BABYLONS” By Alexander Hislop. Have you read it? Thank you for your Post. We have not met to many People that believe like we do. Mrs. IM4Truth–Mrs. IM4Truth
I wonder if those who follow this satanic teaching that slanders God in every conceivable way realize that they are part of Babylon the Great?
Probably not.No, I haven't read it. I have read many quotes from it. Maybe I should read it.
Babylon is where so many of Babylon the Great's teachings started. I wish some would study this and make the connection.Quote Can you disprove and/or explain the meaning of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus? The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'25 “But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27 “He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
29 “Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
30 ” 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31 “He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' “
I have spent much time going into great detail with this scripture with Nick (as it is the only scripture that can actually be taken in any way to support his hellfire belief)
Very very briefly:
By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?
Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”
If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.
Does that sound reasonable to you?
If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith?
But the Bible does not contradict itself.What does the parable mean?The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.
The fire is no more literal than Abraham’s bosom. (Luke 16:22-24)Hi Mrs. IM4truth, back to your Babylon comment:
The threat of painful retribution in the afterlife has counterparts in nearly every major world religion and in some minor ones as well. Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jains, and Taoists believe in a hell of one sort or another.
WHEN DID PROFESSED CHRISTIANS ADOPT THE BELIEF IN HELLFIRE?
Well after the time of Jesus Christ and his apostles. “The Apocalypse of Peter (2nd century C.E.) was the first [apocryphal] Christian work to describe the punishment and tortures of sinners in hell,” states the French Encyclopædia Universalis.
THIS IS A BABYLONISH TEACHING, BORROWED AND MELDED INTO APOSTATE CHRISTIANITY, AS WERE COUNTLESS OTHER BELIEFS, THE TRINITY INCLUDED.
This like the trinity, is designed to turn people away from God. Whereas the trinity belief makes God impersonal and unknowable, mysterious, the hellfire belief casts God as unjust, unloving and vindictive.
It is truly satanic and it comes is borrowed from Babylon.
David Just have to tell you how I came to buy the “The Two Babylons” We were in the Cath. Church all our lives. When my Husband listened to the World Tomorrow Program Mr. Armstrong was talking against the Cath, Church. Since I was very active in the Church, I was not happy at all. So I set out to prove Mr. Armstrong wrong, and I went to a Bible Bookstore to find something on cults. I found a small book on Him, but at the same time found the T.B.B. I just put it under my Arm and started to read about Mr. Armstrong, because I had to wait at the Check-out Counter. The Lady that finally waited on me asked me if I wanted to buy the T,B.B. I was so embarrassed that I had forgotten about it,I bought it too. I am so glad that God has called us out of that system.
Peace Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (Adam Pastor @ July 10 2007,22:26) (Luke 12:5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell [GEHENNA]; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Hi AP,
Surely physical death only kills the body but the soul can be killed in the second death, the lake of fire, made for the devil and his angels and THE DESTINY OF MANY MEN.
Mt 10.28
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