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Quote (t8 @ April 10 2007,17:10) Yes it seems that it is the ultimate judgement and the punishment much greater than those who despised Moses' law, for they went to the grave. Yes, The Lake of Fire is a greater judgment than the grave because it is the ultimate judgement. There are no judgments after this one and it is a necessary part of the new creation that the old is destroyed, so that God can dwell in all. At this point creation is redeemed as death is overcome. God will be able to dwell in all thereafter and there will be no sin in the new creation..
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Hi T8, The “Lake of fire” is the second death, not the ultimate judgement. Cor.15:26 (your quote) The last enemy to be destroyed is death. When death is 'destroyed', all will live. Only then can God be”ALL in all”.Blessings.
Just thinking to myself.
IF death is the last enemy that is to be thrown into the lake of fire the second death, then death will be destroyed. (If it's not to be destroyed then what is the purpose of throwing death into this lake?)
And if death is destroyed, then there will be no more dead.
There will be no dead, so there can be no dead people being tortured.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,13:56) Hi CO.
Fine theory but the second death is not destroyed.
It is to be feared.
Hi Nick.
Death is death, first, second, third? When death is destroyed, there will be no more dead, all will live.Quote (chosenone @ April 12 2007,06:25) Hi Nick.
Not only popular, but biblically correct.
if you forget about the passages describing eternal suffering.Revelation 20
10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.or else The devil would be tossed in the fire and then quickly hop back out. What possible fear would the devil have in this scenario. When it says he goes about seeking whom he can destroy because he knows his time is short, I am quite sure it doesn't mean his time is short in the lake of fire.
This has never been taught in the history of the church until about the time of Origen. He only speculated that perhaps one day all would be restored, but was never dogmatic.
So, this is a New teaching a New revelation and a New aspect of the Gospel.
Galatians 1:8
8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. 10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Popular teachings do please men and their itching ears soak it up.
Could universal salvation ever eventually occur? Maybe, but that is at the Mercy of God and to even think of teaching it as fact is horribly dangerous.
Hi Morning Star.
Your quote of scripture in Rev.20:10 is very interesting. This is a good example of an incorrectly translated scripture. The correct translation is…Shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. Have a look at the Interlinear Scripture Analyser, (scripture4all.org) and you will see the original greek words properly translated. The word eon is a fixed priod of time, never endless, there are five eons mentioned in scripture, we are living in the 3rd. the wicked eon.Blessings.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2007,11:30) Hi CO,
Thank you. Tell us more about the eons.
Nick.
Get a good translation, I have found the best one to be by the ConcordantPublishing Concern.Blessings.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2007,11:30) Hi CO,
Thank you. Tell us more about the eons.
Hi Nick.
There are 173 passages in scripture with the word eon and eonian in them. It would take me too much time to list them, but you can readily see them in: http://www.gracetruth.com
Please have a look and let me know what you think.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ April 12 2007,11:19) Hi Morning Star.
Your quote of scripture in Rev.20:10 is very interesting. This is a good example of an incorrectly translated scripture. The correct translation is…Shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. Have a look at the Interlinear Scripture Analyser, (scripture4all.org) and you will see the original greek words properly translated. The word eon is a fixed priod of time, never endless, there are five eons mentioned in scripture, we are living in the 3rd. the wicked eon.Blessings.
Hi Chosenone,
I agree. Strongs translation of eon as for ever is one of the worst singular translations in the bible.An eon is an aeon is an age. When scriptures say for an eon of the eons it literally means for an age of the ages.
It is better translated as age abiding, as it is in some other translations like Young's literal translation.Tim
I recommend the following articles …
Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 13 2007,10:27) I recommend the following articles …
Thanks Adampastor,Excellent articles.
Tim
Quote (Adam Pastor @ April 13 2007,10:27) I recommend the following articles …
Adam Pastor.
Thanks for the reference to these websights, very good teachings.
See also “Concordant.org” another very good teaching websight.Blessings.
Quote (chosenone @ April 12 2007,07:33) Quote (t8 @ April 10 2007,17:10) Yes it seems that it is the ultimate judgement and the punishment much greater than those who despised Moses' law, for they went to the grave. Yes, The Lake of Fire is a greater judgment than the grave because it is the ultimate judgement. There are no judgments after this one and it is a necessary part of the new creation that the old is destroyed, so that God can dwell in all. At this point creation is redeemed as death is overcome. God will be able to dwell in all thereafter and there will be no sin in the new creation..
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
Hi T8, The “Lake of fire” is the second death, not the ultimate judgement. Cor.15:26 (your quote) The last enemy to be destroyed is death. When death is 'destroyed', all will live. Only then can God be”ALL in all”.Blessings.
Ultimate in that there are no more judgements (for sin) after that because the Lake of Fire destroys the old order of things and there will be no more sin after this judgement.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2005,13:36) Hi, In response to a post from bic I would like to initiate discussion on this subject. Public opinion favours the thought that God would not treat His human creation in this way and devise their own doctrines. But we do not follow public opinion but what is revealed in the Word of God.
Those who do not believe in the separation between soul and body have views based on that perception.Those who do believe in that concept need to decide if both are destroyed instantly -or neither.
If such a place exists [?Lake of fire]was it designed for the devil and his angels?
Do the false prophet and the beast have a destiny there too? Are they human?
Do the unsaved also share that destiny?
“eternal torment”…. what does it mean….. hmmmm“1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS ” (Merriam Webster)“eternal”: “ageless, eternal, everlasting, perpetual, unending, unceasing continuing forever or indefinitely; “the ageless themes of love and revenge”; “eternal truths”; “life everlasting”; “hell's perpetual fires”; “the unending bliss of heaven”” (WordReference)
“torment” “1 : the infliction of torture (as by rack or wheel)
2 : extreme pain or anguish of body or mind : AGONY
3 : a source of vexation or pain” (Merriam Webster)“agony, torment, torture …. intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; “an agony of doubt”; “the torments of the damned”” (WordReference)
well… I hoped that cleared things up for you
blessings,
KenApart from the listed scripture below, is that term mentioned anywhere? I know it isn't even mentioned in the verse below either but “tormented day and night” could be translated as “eternal torment” on the outset.
But are there any scriptures where “eternal torment” is actually mentioned? If no, then what are the scriptures where it is inferred? Maybe 2 strong ones like Revelation 20:10.
Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?
Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death.
This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.
Looking up the english word “torment” doesn't tell us a lot. I makes more sense to understand how the greek word that is translated as such was used.The Greek noun ba·sa·ni·stes′ occurring at Matthew 18:34 is rendered “jailers” in some translations (AT, Fn, NW; compare Mt 18:30) and “tormentors” or “torturers” in others. (AS, KJ, JB)
Torture was sometimes used in prisons to obtain information (compare Ac 22:24, 29, which shows that this was done, although ba·sa·ni′zo is not used here), so ba·sa·ni·stes′ came to be applied to jailers.Regarding its use at Matthew 18:34, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia observed: “Probably the imprisonment itself was regarded as ‘torment’ (as it doubtless was), and the ‘tormentors’ need mean nothing more than jailers.” (Edited by J. Orr, 1960, Vol. V, p. 2999)
Thus, the mentioning in Revelation 20:10 of ones who will be “tormented day and night forever and ever” evidently indicates that they will be in a condition of restraint. That a condition of restraint can be spoken of as “torment” is indicated by the parallel accounts at Matthew 8:29 and Luke 8:31.
Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context.—Re 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10.
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