Eternal torment

[Guncher]

Today I asked some fellow believers about eternal torment for unbelievers
I posed a hypothetical story. A king has a subject who steals a bowl of fruit from him, so as a punishment , he has them burned with a hot iron for the rest of their lives
My friends thought that that was terrible and asked where the king was. I told them , in the Bible
Christianity today tells people that because theysin that God,the King,will torment them for ever
I then asked how could I enjoy Heaven when I know that unbelieving Family and Friends are being hurt
God is love, how can that be called love. He punishes people today for the sin of two people Adam and Eve
As I read through the OldTestament , I see that God punishes sin, but always with the aim of correction and to reconcile

[seekingtruth]

Guncher,
You're absolutely right, I came to the same conclusion. Many teach that nearly all the people who have ever lived will suffer in eternal torment in hell. This has been based on a translation of the word aion which has translated as eternal, everlasting, forever this is offered as the proof within the scriptures that punishment goes on forever,
However the translation for aion only means endless when it derives its meaning or endlessness from the nature of the subject to which it is connected. Best translated as “The entirety of time for the object being discussed”. Hence when applied to God it is certainly to be considered unending, when applied to smoke rising, until the consumption of the item being burned, and to the torment of the wicked, until all has been paid. God will not torture a non-believer for eternity
For those being punished, the punishment will be proportional to their “sins” ending in annihilation. Eternal life is promised to believers and gifted to adherents, it is not something possessed by all of mankind. Eternal torment is not torment for eternity but torment to completion with eternal consequences. This concept is in keeping with the justice that God requires but with the Love that God is.

My opinion – Wm

[david]

Gruncher, that is a great way to make people actually think about it, rather than put up a wall of emotional belief.

[Proclaimer]

The Catholic Church (the extension of Rome and the Holy Roman empire) taught this as a way to control people by keeping them in fear and saying that they had the keys to their salvation. It is not what scripture says, but in the Dark Ages people wouldn't have known that because the scriptures were not given to the people but remained in the hands of those who propagated this deception.

[Stu]

So scripture says that anyone judged negatively will be permanently destroyed by fire. The destruction is the state that lasts forever, not the punishment. Have I got this right? This is one thing of the things I have learned here, and I am careful not to make a strawman of the “eternal punishment” thing.

Stuart

[2besee]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 29 2012,02:18)

Today I asked some fellow believers about eternal torment for unbelievers I posed a hypothetical story. A king has a subject who steals a bowl of fruit from him, so as a punishment , he has them burned with a hot iron for the rest of their lives My friends thought that that was terrible and asked where the king was. I told them , in the Bible Christianity today tells people that because  theysin that God,the King,will torment them for ever I then asked how could I enjoy Heaven when I know that unbelieving Family and Friends are being hurt God is love, how can that be called love. He punishes people today for the sin of two people Adam and Eve As I read through the OldTestament , I see that God punishes sin, but always with the aim of correction and to reconcile

1John 4:4-21,

“Little children, you are of God, and have overcome them; for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
They are of the world, therefore what they say is of the world, and the world listens to them.
We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.

He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his own Spirit.

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
So we know and believe the love God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

In this is love perfected with us, that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so are we in this world.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love.
We love, because he first loved us.
If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. “

Meditate on those words.

[2besee]

Here is some verses:

Mark 9,

“And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”

“Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather FEAR HIM WHO CAN DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell.”

Genesis 3:1-4,
'Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God say, `You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?”
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden;
but God said, `You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, LEST YOU DIE.'”
But the serpent said to the woman, “YOU WILL NOT DIE. '

“And then God said to Adam 'In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust,
and to dust you shall return.”

Matthew 13,
“So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.”

For how long?

Revelation 20:12-15,
“Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH, THE LAKE OF FIRE;
and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Romans 6:23,
'For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord'.

“For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven other persons, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomor'rah to ashes he condemned them to extinction and made them an example to those who were to be ungodly;
and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked (for by what that righteous man saw and heard as he lived among them, he was vexed in his righteous soul day after day with their lawless deeds),
then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority.”

Kept in punishment until the day of judgment, this is not for eternity.

John 3:16,
'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not PERISH but have eternal life.'

John 4:1,
“Whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

John 5:24,
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

John 10:28,
“And I give eternal life to them, and they will never PERISH; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”

Rom 6:23,
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

James 5:20,
'Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from DEATH.'

James 2:26,
For AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so faith without works is dead also.

Rev. 20:14,
“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

And Matthew 7:13,
“Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

[Guncher]

I am typing this with my feet because. I have chopped off two hands and with only one eye
The Hell Jesus mentions should be interpreted as Ghenna

[Guncher]

Further is God just to torment forever mentally ill people who could not understand the gospel
Also where do the Aborted/ Still born babies go

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 29 2012,17:05)

So scripture says that anyone judged negatively will be permanently destroyed by fire.  The destruction is the state that lasts forever, not the punishment.  Have I got this right?  This is one thing of the things I have learned here, and I am careful not to make a strawman of the “eternal punishment” thing. Stuart

Correct. They are destroyed forever.

However, it doesn't say that it will be effective immediately. And there are clues in scripture that indicate that depending on the extent of sin this depends on the punishment.

But scripture is clear, that Death and Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire which is the Second Death. It is clear even from this that Hell is not eternal.

Here is a list of scriptures that prove that the bible teaches the destruction of the wicked.

Scripture likens the wicked to animals or beasts. In other words they are temporary like them and do not have eternal life.  

“And like beasts they too will perish”.

We know that God doesn't torture animals forever. No they simply perish or are destroyed forever. They do not possess eternal life like a person can obtain.

Here are a few more scriptures describing the fate of the Godless and wicked.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 29 2012,22:28)

Further is God just to torment forever mentally ill people who could not understand the gospel Also where do the Aborted/ Still born babies go

God doesn't torment forever any person.

People who are destroyed are those that reject God. Why is that? Because God is life. If you reject God you reject life and free will means our destiny is our choosing. And on that subject, have the unborn rejected God?

The wicked will perish/be destroyed. They will be cast into what is called the Second Death. It is final death/destruction.

It does not mean that you have eternal life and suffer.
No, by it's very definition it means the opposite of eternal life.

[Stu]

Quote (t8 @ Nov. 29 2012,20:29)

Here are a few more scriptures describing the fate of the Godless and wicked. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will perish. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. They will be punished with everlasting destruction (i.e., they are destroyed forever). And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. http://www.heaven.net.nz/answers/answer26.htm

It will seem bizarre to be dug up after my death and in some way judged by a hypocritical god then set on fire, but the end result will be little different from what I am expecting anyway. My lack of worry during my non-existence for billions of years of the past makes me unworried about my eventual lack of existence for billions of years into the future.

It was astonishing to be born capable of understanding the universe in some small way regardless of what else happens.

Of course I don't accept that any of this really will happen. It was all made up by ambitious politicians many centuries ago, for their own advancement.

Stuart

[Guncher]

I don't like the term godless. It sounds as if these people are wicked
We are talking about people who have never had a chance to reject the good news of the gospel
The aborted, still born, mentally incapable have not made a decision one way or another
There has to be a provision for these
Imagine a young child in a lost tribe situation. She may have a consciousness of a supreme being, but has never heard that Jesus paid the price for her sin and was offering eternal life
She gets raped and gets aids and then dies. She ,hypothetically, arrives at the pearly gates and is refused admission. She is then directed to the torture chamber. Never to escape
What an outcome. Something is not right

[terraricca]

this fire has puzzled me for years,then I ask what was it in the case of the first murder in premeditation in scriptures

Cain was judged by God ,and was send away from those that had favor in Gods eyes and also to an land that was as rude as his crime,and so that no one would harm him God made a sign on his forehead,he his now in a state of dead but yet not physically dead ,because he as to pay for what he had done ,

Jesus also told the scribe and pharisees HOW COULD THEY ESCAPE THE FIRE BY ACTING THE WAY THEY DID TOWARDS THE TRUTH OF GOD

SO MY QUESTION IN MY MIND BECAME ;is dead worse than destruction by fire scriptures says that burned by the fire mean second dead ,

but what is the difference between the first dead and the second one Paul says that we were dead without God (gentiles) but now we also came to live because of Christ ,

so I came to some understanding that the fire could well mean a fire of our own doing LIKE REAP WHAT YOU HAVE SOWN after all justice as to be rendered, SO COULD THE LAND OF NOD BE THE LAND OF FIRE ,THERE IS ALSO A FIRE THAT THE TRUE CHRISTIANS HAVE TO GO THOUGH IN THIS WORLD THAT FIRE ARE THE TEMPTATIONS AND LIES OF THIS WORLD ,

GOD FOR SURE WILL RENDER JUSTICE ,AND ALL WILL BE SEPARATED THE GOOD FROM THE BAD,

THE FIRST DEAD DID NOT LEAD US TO BE SEPARATED FROM OUR CREATOR FOR EVER BUT ONLY UNTIL THE RESTORATION WAS PUT IN PLACE ,BUT IN THE SECOND DEAD THEIR WILL BE NO RESTORATION AVAILABLE ,NEVER SO THE CONDITION WILL REMAIN THE SAME FOREVER WITHOUT HOPE ,

COULD IT BE THAT THE ONLY ESCAPE WOULD BE THE ACT OF JUDA ISCARIOT SOME QUESTION I COULD NOT FIND AN ANSWER FOR IT YET ,

[Guncher]

Does God get what he wants
God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth 1Timothy ch 2v 4
So does get what He wants Will all people be saved or will God not get what He wants
In Phillipians ch 2Paul states thatEvery knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father
Psalm 22 v says that all who go down into the dust will kneel before Him
So everybody who dies will kneel before God
Is history tragic. Have billions of people been created only to spend eternity in conscious punishment and torment
Or will God take care of us

[terraricca]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 30 2012,00:17)

Does God get what he wants God wants all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth 1Timothy ch 2v 4 So does get what He wants Will all people be saved or will God not get what He wants In Philippians ch 2Paul states that Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of the Father Psalm 22 v says that all who go down into the dust will kneel before Him So everybody who dies will kneel before God Is history tragic. Have billions of people been created only to spend eternity in conscious punishment and torment Or will God take care of us

GOOD QUESTIONS.

but what about the things we do now in our live time

are we not paying already for not turning to God i think so ,

but what you asking is about all those who did not know the God of creation and his son right

in this case the second resurrection comes in ,because all have to know and make a choice either believe in Christ or not to believe ,and so do something about it ,

but for those that do not want to believe that voluntarily decline the offer that God made to us through his son ,they also will know but the end of them is now left to them in a place were they only can harm themselves and without hope of ever be able to change that place,they are now totally spiritually dead twice dead ,i would believe that an animal would be better off than them but it was their own choice ,

stupidity is a sin were their his no cure for it that i know of,is there one

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Stu @ Nov. 30 2012,01:22)

Of course I don't accept that any of this really will happen. It was all made up by ambitious politicians many centuries ago, for their own advancement.

No. Written by prophets mainly but some kings. Includes Jesus Christ too.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guncher @ Nov. 30 2012,03:40)

We are talking about people who have never had a chance to reject the good news of the gospel.

There are 3 ways that we are judged by God and one way we are saved.

1) If you have not received the gospel, but the written law, then you are judged by the law, “thou shalt not kill” etc. But you will also be shown mercy by grace because the penalty of death for sin has been paid. The demand of the law has been met. Hence those that lived before the gospel such as Ezekiel are not damned because they have not heard the gospel. Neither is anyone today who has not heard.

2) If you don't know the law or the gospel, you are judged by your conscience. Con (with) Science (knowledge) is the law of God that is part of your primary programming. We all know it is wrong to kill. Even if there was no written law about nuder, we know it is wrong. Being judged by conscience is simple. Did you live by it or did you sear the conscience and hence rebel against the one who gave it to us. All can be judged by this alone.

3) If you have received the gospel, you have received the most powerful message. It is the power of God unto salvation. If it is rejected, it shows you have rejected God. If you accept it, then you accept God. It is black and white. It is clear cut. Unlike the law and conscience, there is a clear line in the sand that we can see and we can live knowing that we are saved whereas with the first 2 options it is not so clear cut who will be saved.

[charity]

hmmmm

Never underestimate the power of a group of really stupid people.

A script is a Movie.

[Stu]

t8 seems to think Jesus wrote things down for us, too.

Stuart

[Author]

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