Eternal torment

Participant

Some Biblical points to consider:

1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Check several Bibles.)
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?

2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?

4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?

5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)

6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?

8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?

9.–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?

10.–Is not the idea that the soul is immortal contrary to what you personally have observed?
–What happens when a person is knocked unconscious, faints, or is placed under an anesthetic at a hospital?
If his “soul” is really something separate from the body and is able to function intelligently apart from the body, so that even death itself does not affect its existence and its functions, why is it that during such period of unconsciousness the person is completely unaware of all activity around him?
–Why is it that he must be told afterward what happened during that time?
–If his “soul” can see, hear, feel and think after death, as religions generally teach, why does something far less drastic than death, such as a period of unconsciousness, stop all these functions?

I've recently found a few more scriptural reasons why we know God doesn't torture people forever, but I haven't organized them yet.
(For more on this subject, see “hell/hades” topic.)

david.

November 16, 2005 at 7:47 pm#19586

Participant

Hi David,

I agree with everything you posted. Also, in Genesis man became a living soul when God breathed life into him. Outside of God there is no life. Only God has life unto himself, and now Jesus his Son also has life unto himself becoming the first born of many. That is why eternal life is a gift. When a person dies the soul goes back to God.

Paul taught about the natural being first Adam from the ground, and the second Adam, Jesus Christ. This also ties in with the teaching in Hebrews about the new creation in Christ, and the different creation accounts in Genesis one and two.

take care B.

November 17, 2005 at 12:42 am#19587

Participant

Perfect. Bastain, hello. Finally, someone who responded. Someone new.
So, if you agree with everything I posted, then how do you explain the story Jesus gave of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16)? How does it compare with “everything I posted?” Is it literal?
We have discussed this topic quite a bit recently in the “hades” thread in the Bible discussions section.

Also,
Is it the soul that goes back to God, or the spirit? As you said, when God created Adam, he “became a living soul.” It wasn't a part of him. He WAS a soul.
There's also a thread about the soul in the Bible discussions section.

david.

November 28, 2005 at 8:10 pm#19588

Participant

Hello David,

Almost immediately after I posted here my computer crashed. It was an awful mess I won’t go into detail but I was almost certain all was lost. It took me a while but everything is up and running. I just wanted you to know I was not ignoring you.

November 28, 2005 at 8:33 pm#19589

Participant

Finally my reply to David

I have set before you life and death (Deuteronomy)

If we are born with immortal life in us why John 3:16.

John 11:25 I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE he that believes in me though he DIE, yet shall he LIVE; and whosoever lives and believes in me SHALL NEVER DIE

Adam was not created in God’s image. We bear the image of Adam. Adam was not immortal. Adam became a living soul (living being) just as the animals were living souls (beings, creatures).

Adam and Eve did not die spiritually as is taught. According to this teaching soul= spirit. If the soul is immortal then spiritual death is a contradiction in terms.
45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so are those who are heavenly.
49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

Man doesn’t have a soul, he is a soul, just as he doesn’t have a spirit but will become a Spirit being at the resurrection.

12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

Adam and Eve did not die spiritually as is taught. According to this teaching soul= spirit. If the soul is immortal then spiritual death is a contradiction in terms.

Paul states that if there is no resurrection then all who have fallen asleep have perished. What is Paul saying here? That all that have fallen asleep will be conscious without a body in a limbo state forever, or that they are dead in their graves and will never see eternal life.

When we or any other living creature dies, the soul (life) that God gave it goes back to God. Not to some other place.

Outside of God, there is no life. God the Father alone is immortal. As now, also the Son is immortal.

John 5:26 for just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave the Son also to have life in himself.

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight for which you were called; take hold of ETERNAL LIFE to which you were called.

I charge you in the presence of God who GIVES LIFE TO ALL THINGS, and of Christ Jesus

16, who ALONE possesses IMMORTALITY.

John 3:6 that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is
Spirit.

It is the Spirit that gives life the flesh profits nothing.

John 3
36: He who abides in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Do not work for food that perishes, but for the food, which endures, to eternal life.
I am the living bread anyone who eats of this bread he will live forever.

The gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 5:23

We might be heirs according to the hope of eternal life Titus 3:12

The gift of God is eternal life through his son Christ Jesus. Our Salvation is from death, not hell, and eternal torment. If the soul cannot die and is immortal from birth then much of what the Bible says has no meaning at all.

The wages of sin is death. God’s word speaks very plainly about sin and death. Yet those that adhere to a soul survival doctrine make God out to be a liar.

The wages of sin is death must be made into figurative language in order to fit their interpretation.
Destruction doesn’t mean destroyed, just lose of well being. Perish means to be alive in a terrible place. Those that sleep, are not asleep at all they are fully conscious

Psalm 1:15

The heavens are the heavens of the LORD,
But the earth He has given to the sons of men.
17The dead do not praise the LORD,
Nor do any who go down into silence;

Inspired men wrote volumes about the state of the dead ( sorry about the font changes) that is why I do not like to copy and paste. I do it to save time, but lose the little I have gained by having to reset the font, which in this case did not come back to the default setting) As I was saying, Inspired men wrote volumes, yet many are unwilling to accept God’s written word.

God says that death is the enemy. If the faithful die, and their souls go to a happy place how can that be bad? They dwell there until the resurrection right? Wherever there is. It is not heaven because we know that only Jesus Christ has ascended and that mortal must be made immortal, and that happens at the resurrection. God must be confused. according to soul survivors, death is a friend to believers and a enemy to unbelievers, all posses immortal life NOW, regardless of weather they believe in Christ or not.

If death means being separated from God as most teach then death can never be abolished. If the wages of sin is being separated from God then death must reign. The last enemy can never be destroyed.

Christ died in my place. I believe this as a statement of fact. Yet, I know that some time in the future I will die.

Let us take a look at the scripture and read it the way a soul survivor would.

Whoever lives and believes in me shall never separate.

The first born from the separation

The last enemy to be abolished is separation

Christ was separated for our sins.

Except a grain of wheat fall in the earth and separate.

John 11:25 Though he be separated, yet shall he be unseparated.

As I stated earlier there is no life outside of God. In an absolute sense to be separated from God is to be nowhere because there cannot be existence without God. The doctrine of soul survival teaches that man is a GOD BECAUSE HE HAS LIFE UNTO HIMSELF.

November 28, 2005 at 8:41 pm#19590

Participant

David,

About the rich man and Lazarus

Matthew 13:10-11
Matthew 34 He did not speak to them without a parable.

A certain king, a certain creditor, a certain poor widow, etc. Jesus used parables to teach those that understood greater spiritual truths.

According to popular Christian teaching, they did not go to heaven and hell because Jesus had not gone to the cross yet. But to a place that had two compartments. The O.T. Saints went to Paradise (Abraham’s Bosom) the others went to Hades. The word Paradise is used in scripture three times.

Luke24:43 future tense
2 Corinthian 12:4 past tense, after the resurrection
Revelation 2:7 future tense

Abraham’s Bosom or side as some of the newer versions translate it is mentioned once in Luke.

When people died, the Bible tells us that they went to rest with their fathers, not their father Abraham.
1 Kings 2: 10-11
1 Kings 22:50
2 Chronicles 9:30-32
“ “ 28-27

Also, were did the faithful that died go before Abraham?

For arguments sake let’s say such a place did exist.
How comforting would it be for a person in the paradise compartment to hear and see a loved one suffering endless torment without relief, and unable to aid them in any way. Also, isn’t it odd that the rich man has a body? This is before the resurrection therefore he is a disembodied spirit, soul, whatever he is supposed to be, he cannot have eyes that see, a tongue that thirsts etc. His body is in the grave. We know because Jesus told us he was buried.

What greater spiritual truth was Jesus teaching? The rich man was certainly self centered and lacked compassion for his fellow man. He lived a live of luxury and wanted for nothing. These are the “sins” that sent him to eternal damnation?

Moreover, what about Lazarus. Not only was he a poor beggar who suffered greatly. It seems that he had a horrible physical disease also. What a wretched life his must have been.

Currently there are people that are born, and die on the streets of India every day not knowing Jesus as the Savior. According to the people that believe this parable to be about the after life, all these people should be with God. Yet, you and I both know that they would be the first to exclaim, “don’t be ridiculous of course their in hell”!
The scripture does not tell us anything about his, Lazarus relationship with God, only that he suffered. Many people suffer here on earth that is not the criteria for eternal life.

So what spiritual truth was Jesus teaching that day?

In Luke Chapter 14, Jesus is a dinner guest at the home of a Pharisee. Jesus teaches in parables about a wedding feast. Are we to understand that Jesus was teaching table manners or giving lessons in etiquette here? He leaves the home of the Pharisee and a large crowd of outcasts, Scribes, and Pharisees gather to hear him teach. Luke 15:3 He told them this parable. The five parables that follow are part of one whole. Jesus did not speak in chapter and verse divisions. In chapter, sixteen his attention shifts from his disciples to the Pharisees. If we were to take the parable of the unjust steward at face value without spiritual understanding, it seems Jesus admires what the steward did, and that believers should use their money to buy friends. Of course, we know that is not the lesson here.

Luke 16:18

Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple, and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

Purple is the color worn by royalty, only the very rich could afford it. It was the color worn by the priest in the tabernacle along with fine linen.

Ester 8:15

The fine clothing is a symbol of a nation that God had richly blessed. They alone had the covenants, the law, and the promises. How did Israel treat the surrounding nations, without God, without hope? With utter contempt, to Judah all others were dogs. Filthy animals. The scribes and the Pharisees were so full of themselves that they felt they were holier then most in Israel they alone were not “sinners”. This parable served a duel purpose . One to show Israel it’s position with God, and the other to show the Pharisees that their fables ( their oral law) which they had carried over from Babylon, the Talmud, served to bring about their own destruction not salvation. Just as religious men today wrest God’s word, and write commentaries to suite their purpose the scribes and Pharisees did the same. Jesus gave them a lesson in one up man ship on adding to God’s word.

Matthew 15:12 And a Canaanite women form the region came out and began to cry out saying, Have mercy on me Lord son of David. My daughter is cruelly demon possessed.
But he did not answer her a word ( Wow! Jesus ignored her, that’s harsh). His disciples begged him say something to her to get rid of her, she is making a spectacle ( no compassion for this women at all).

Jesus does what they ask, he tells her that he is sent only to the lost house of Israel. At this point most would have given up. Not her, she begs Lord HELP ME.
Jesus again tells her it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs. She agrees, yes I am a dog, unclean, without God, without hope, please may I just have the leftovers that fall on the floor.

Israel was fat and satiated while the Nations were poor and starving. Lazarus represents the Gentiles. His name means Whom God rescues.

And longing to be fed from the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table.
Lazarus is hungry for spiritual nourishment just like the syrophinician women he is a pagan, a dog without truth and religion. Outside of Israel all the Nations feed of what fell from the chosen peoples plates.

Lazarus went to Abraham’s bosom some of the newer translations say side.

A honored guest sat next to the host. He reclined on his bosom. John 13:23

Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom had entered a banquet.

For the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham, or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Jesus marveled at the faith of the Centurion.

For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith I made void, and the promises made of none effect.
Because the law worketh wrath for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Therefore it is of faith that it might be of grace to the end of the promise might be sure to all the seed: not to that only which is the law, but to that also which is the faith of Abraham; who is the father of all.

He staggered no at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God.

Heart faith is embraced by those who like Abraham believed the promises though they be far off.

Read Luke 3:7-9

The gulf separates Israel from God. Not from all Jews. There is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ Jesus. Salvation is on an individual basis.
Israel says that everything God gave them wasn’t enough give us an other sign raise Lazarus from the dead then we will believe. God raised Lazarus, and the Sadducees, and Pharisees sought to kill both, him and Lazarus. God raised Jesus from the dead and to this day the Nation of Israel is still looking for the Messiah.

If Jesus is talking about a real place and real events then we must accept the fact that Jesus taught that Abraham a man, and not God is prayed to in the after life.

If Lazarus had been sent back he would have been a ghost not a resurrected person.
This is what spiritualists believe. Jesus did not teach it was wrong for the rich man to ask that a ghost return to earth, did Jesus believe the same?

Again, as I stated earlier where did the people who died before Abraham go.

This is a parable, not one word is to be taken literally as the state of disembodied souls after death.

Take care, Bastian

November 28, 2005 at 9:43 pm#19591

Participant

Hey Bastain, if you go to the “Forum Jump” and check under “Biblical discussions,” in the thread called “Hades/hell” Nick and I have been having a very lengthy discussion on hellfire, particularly on the parable in Luke 16, the rich man and lazarus.

If you go there, you will find I agree with most of what you say. I think you would be interested in the discussion we had, or are having. I believe it's around page 6 or 7 in “Hades/hell” that we begin talking about that parable. Nick feels strongly that how Jesus portrayed hades in that parable is to be taken literally, and hence, hellfire. I believe it is a parable and since the rest of the Bible disagrees with the thought of hellfire, that we really can't take Jesus mentioning of hades as literal, but that it should be taken as symbolic of something else. But then Nick asks: OK, why did he mention it that way then. And the conversation continues…

Check it out. I really don't have time to comment on what you you wrote. (I have to go on a Bible study right away.) But as I said, I agree with much of what you say.

November 28, 2005 at 10:39 pm#19592

Participant

Hi david,
Do you not yet know that Hades is not the Lake of fire? Hades is a place of waiting for judgement, a place of remand for the unsaved. Hades is eventually destroyed in the Lake of fire [Rev 20.14]as there is no need for it after the judgement. The second death is that which men should fear as it is the everlasting lake of fire. The beast and the false prophet are thrown into it before the 1000 yr reign[Rev 19.20] and are still there at the end[Rev 20 10].

November 29, 2005 at 1:41 am#19593

Participant

Hi David,

Thanks for the invite, but since I do not believe that the soul continues after death as the scriptures plainly teach there is no purpose in getting into a debate about the existence of hell.

I will leave this forum with one last scripture

Isaiah 26:13

O Lord our God, other masters besides you have ruled us;
But through you alone we confess Your name.
The dead will not live, the departed spirits will not rise;
Therefore you have punished and destroyed them.
verse 19 Your dead will live
Their corpses will rise
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy For your dew is the dew of the dawn
and the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

Be well, B.

November 29, 2005 at 2:46 am#19594

Participant

Hi Bastion,
Speaking of Isaiah, what do you make of the scripture at the end of Isaiah that Jesus quoted in Mk 43-48? He was speaking of the lake of fire.

November 29, 2005 at 5:02 am#19595

Participant

Quote

Thanks for the invite, but since I do not believe that the soul continues after death as the scriptures plainly teach there is no purpose in getting into a debate about the existence of hell.

Does Bastain think that I believe that the soul continues after death?
I don't believe in the immortal soul Bastain.

November 29, 2005 at 5:09 am#19596

Participant

Quote

Nick, I believe I've tried to tell you at least 8 or 10 times that hades is hurled into the lake of fire, and hence, not the lake of fire.

Jesus parable mentioned hades.

Hades is going to be hurled into the lake of fire, symbolizing the second death, destruction.

If hades is a place of blazing fire, why throw fire in fire? What effect would that have?

Quote

Hades is eventually destroyed in the Lake of fire [Rev 20.14]as there is no need for it after the judgement. The second death is that which men should fear as it is the everlasting lake of fire.

Nick, I completely agree. Men should fear the second death, as represented by the lake of fire.

Nick, I'm not really sure why you asked if I do not know that hades is not the lake of fire. It is you who seem to assert that hades is a place of firey torment.
If I have stated your beliefs wrongly in that other post, let me know. Despite some time of discussing this with you, I am still most likely confused about your beliefs on hades.

david.

November 29, 2005 at 8:21 am#19597

Participant

Hi david,
Of course any discussion on Lk 16 is also a view of the soul. The body has died. Both the rich man and Lazarus are dead. So their bodies are corrupting while they and Abraham yet live and all await the judgement.

Hades is thus not a place of eternal torment as it is only a temporary place of waiting.

The lake of fire, however, can destroy both the bodies and the souls of the living according to Jesus[Matt 10.28f].

He said we should fear the God who can do such things.

November 29, 2005 at 9:18 pm#19598

Participant

Nick,

Mark 43-48 ?

Isaiah 66 is referring to when Messiah establishes his earthly kingdom. He will rule the Nations with a rod of iron. The first order of business when he is king will be to judge the Nations.

Matthew 25:31 -32 But when the son of man comes in his glory and all the angel with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
All the Nations will be gathered before him; and he will separate them from one another, as a Shepard separates the sheep from the goats. This judgment is not about the eternal state. It is about the earthly kingdom. Under King Jesus, judgment is fair and swift.

From new, moon to new moon from Sabbath to Sabbath
There is neither moon nor Sabbath keeping in the eternal.
Do you really think that there is a place in the new heaven, or the new earth where we can view and smell the stinking dead carcasses of men that rebelled against God’s law?

There is no death in the new earth and Heaven.

The great white throne judgment takes place a thousand years after the kingdom judgment, and before the new heaven and the new earth come into view.

I don’t know if you read my previous post. According to God’s word, only those in Christ are raised and given immortality. That is why the lake of fire is the second death, literally. Death is also thrown into the lake of fire. Death is no more once it is cast into the lake of fire. The bible never says that humanity is tormented in the lake of fire. It says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are tormented. The devil is a spirit being he is immortal therefore, it makes since that the fire would not destroy him. I cannot say what the deal is with the false prophet, and the beast they are tormented that is for sure.

Yes, David I know that you, as I believe that the soul is not immortal.

November 29, 2005 at 9:49 pm#19599

Participant

Hi bastion,
I have brought up a forum on judgement in the biblical section.
Matt 25.46
” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”

November 30, 2005 at 4:19 am#19600

Participant

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

OK, even if you prefer your translation and think that that word must be translated: “punishment,” what does that mean? What does that “eternal punishment” mean?
The following scripture answers. And it answers very clearly without question in all Bibles:

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Something else to consider:
Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

david.

November 30, 2005 at 4:24 am#19601

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 30 2005,15:49)

Hi bastion,
I have brought up a forum on judgement in the biblical section.
Matt 25.46
” These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life”

Nick,

That's “everlasting punishment, not “everlasting punish-ing”.

The punishment is everlasting death. Not death, then death, then death. The punishment is final, therefore it is everlasting. The dead will no more be brought back to life.

FIRST DEATH
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Those who have their name in the book of life.

2ND DEATH
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death

REV.20:12
This scripture tells of a second resurrection when most people will be resurrected. Notice that the books were opened; books of their works, and the book of life.
Rev 20:13
Notice that in this scripture no books were opened. These are the wicked who have not their name written into the book of life. They are only judjed according to their work. Notice in verse 12 John saw the dead stand before the thrown. In this verse (13) the dead are given up dead. No one standing in front of the thrown. This is why I believe that these people were already juged. Their would be no reason to judge them. They knew of Jesus but rejected Him. “Let the dead bury the dead”
The lake of fire is the second death the final end of evil. But veses 10 states that Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and be tormented forever.

Rev. 19:20
The war. Jesus wins. Satan and the false prophet both thrown into the Lake of fire alive. The false prophet was the one who decieces the ones who take the mark. But the scripture only says that the Devil and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. It does not state that the ones who recieves the mark are thrown in the lake of fire.

The people decieved are slain in Rev.19:21. In verse 20 they are alive . I believe that the people who accepted the mark are alive to “see” the devil and the false prophet thrown in the lake of fire.

November 30, 2005 at 6:13 am#19602

Participant

Hi david,
Rev 21.8
“..their part WILL BE in the Lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death”

November 30, 2005 at 6:38 am#19603