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I do not believe in once saved always saved. I don't think anything can seperate us from God but I do think we can walk away from him. Below I will give some verses to support my position.
Matthew 13:5-6
5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.Matthew 18:5-9
8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.If our sins are forgiven past, present and future as OSAS teaches, then why should a person go to the drastic steps of cutting off a hand or foot to keep themselves from sinning? Now the only answer would be that Jesus is speaking to unbelievers, but not sinning won't get a non-believer into heaven, only belief in Jesus will do that. So why would He mention this?
I Corinthians 15:2
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.I Corinthians 6:9-10
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.1 John 2:3-6
3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.In the next verse Paul seems to be implying that it was possible for him (or another) not to fight the good fight, not to finish the race and not to keep the faith and therefore not receive the reward.
II Timothy 4:7-8
7I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.These verses in Hebrews seem to indicate that not only can a person loose his salvation but that he deserves to be punished even more severely.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, becauseto their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.This verse very clearly tells us that someone can be saved and then loose that salvation. Granted it is a qualified and conditional statement, however, it quickly and precisely demonstrates that a saved person CAN loose salvation.
Revelation 22:19
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.Hi Mercy,
Try 1Cor 10 1f
“1 Corinthians 10
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”
Hi,
Jn 15
” 1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.”
Hi,
So the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit of Christ. We must decrease and he must increase. Without the Spirit it is all useless human endeavour. We must be reborn into the vine and established on that vine and let that sap flow through us more and more being led by the Spirit. Not allowing the Spirit to lead us results in no useful fruit and the branch being pruned off.
We must be born again of water and the Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,20:45) Hi,
So the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit of Christ. We must decrease and he must increase. Without the Spirit it is all useless human endeavour. We must be reborn into the vine and established on that vine and let that sap flow through us more and more being led by the Spirit. Not allowing the Spirit to lead us results in no useful fruit and the branch being pruned off.
We must be born again of water and the Spirit.
“Born again of water” where does scripture say that?I think believing in the once saved, always saved doctrine is like believing you are on a boat that is sinking and if your ship isn't really filling up with water, so you don't have to worry about getting rid of the water that is beginning to take your life away. Yet, this is my opinion.
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 16 2006,23:00) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,20:45) Hi,
So the fruit is the fruit of the Spirit of Christ. We must decrease and he must increase. Without the Spirit it is all useless human endeavour. We must be reborn into the vine and established on that vine and let that sap flow through us more and more being led by the Spirit. Not allowing the Spirit to lead us results in no useful fruit and the branch being pruned off.
We must be born again of water and the Spirit.
“Born again of water” where does scripture say that?
Hi kenrch,
Fair comment.
Jn 3
” 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.”
All men are already born.
Heb 10
“Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”God requires rebirth-of pure water- and the Spirit from above.
When I was 16 I met some guys who introduced me to Jesus. I was born again. A bit further down the track I foolishly turned my back on God. It broke my heart and I was so aware that because I had turned my back on God that it didn't matter how good or bad I was, I had seperated myself from God.
By His grace He sought me out again about 9 years later. I could have refused to come back, but He put up a pretty convincing argument lol.
Fo the last 28 years I have followed the Lord, screwing up big time on occasions, but things get better with time and obedience.
My point is that even though I had known God, had I not come back to Him, salvation would not have been mine.
It is a falasy to think once saved always saved.
Hi Oxy,
Once we are established in the Son it is natural to let the sap flow from the vine through us and we must oppose nature to not produce fruit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2006,04:41) Hi Oxy,
Once we are established in the Son it is natural to let the sap flow from the vine through us and we must oppose nature to not produce fruit.
Yeah well I have a problem in that, according to the pastor of our church, I can't keep my mouth shut lol. But he assures me that it is a good thing! lolHey,
Joh 4:14 “But whoever drinks of the water which _I_ will give to him will by no means thirst into the age [fig., ever thirst again]! _But_ the water which I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life!”
Hi Olive,
You can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink.We have to drink the water that is given us.
We have to soak up the rain that falls on us.
Hebrews 6:7
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2006,00:53)
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.Except a man be born of water, Not “born again” of water, and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When one is baptized is his flesh born again? No it is a spiritual deal nothing fleshly about it. The water is symbolic much like the bread and wine is symbolic for Christ body and blood.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Born of water is flesh. Born of the Spirit is spirit.
Heb 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,
The body is washed not born again. If your body were born again with water then your flesh would inherit the kingdom but flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
When we are baptized is our flesh “born again of water”?
There is no scripture that says you must be born of water “again”. Born of water is speaking of fleshly birth.
All men are already born. Adam and Eve were not born, they were created.
You must be born of the flesh in order to be born of the Spirit.1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
Unless you are born of water (the natural) then the spirit (spiritual) you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.
An angel cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Because an angel is not born of water.
The word kingdom means a ruler. Unless you are born of flesh and the spirit you cannot be a ruler in heaven. That leaves out all of God's creations except man. Only man who was born has a chance of being a ruler in the new kingdom of God.
G932
βασιλεία
basileia
bas-il-i'-ah
From G935; properly royalty, that is, (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively): – kingdom, + reign.Flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit.
You can be dunked as many times as you want your flesh will still be as filthy rags to God and will not inherit the kingdom.
Hi Kenrch,
Do you have scriptural evidence for your claim that natural birth is being born of water? Otherwise your charge must lapse for lack of a witness.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2006,17:23) Hi Kenrch,
Do you have scriptural evidence for your claim that natural birth is being born of water? Otherwise your charge must lapse for lack of a witness.
You haven't given me scripture saying we must be “born 'again' of water”.Are the angels born of water?
First the natural then the spiritual Nick. What is the natural is it not the flesh? That which is flesh is flesh.
The angels cannot inherit the Kingdom (rulership) because they were not born. Maybe that's why Jesus had to be born flesh among other reasons.
Is your flesh born again? That is what you are saying aren't you? Being “born again of water (baptism) this is your teaching is it not. Then if your flesh is born again of water then your flesh will never die. Is that what scripture says?
Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 18 2006,20:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2006,17:23) Hi Kenrch,
Do you have scriptural evidence for your claim that natural birth is being born of water? Otherwise your charge must lapse for lack of a witness.
You haven't given me scripture saying we must be “born 'again' of water”.Are the angels born of water?
First the natural then the spiritual Nick. What is the natural is it not the flesh? That which is flesh is flesh.
The angels cannot inherit the Kingdom (rulership) because they were not born. Maybe that's why Jesus had to be born flesh among other reasons.
Is your flesh born again? That is what you are saying aren't you? Being “born again of water (baptism) this is your teaching is it not. Then if your flesh is born again of water then your flesh will never die. Is that what scripture says?
Hi kenrch,
Alm the human rationalisations you can come up with do not compare with even one scripture. But you cannot find one that shows that natural birth is of water. Thus it is just speculation.nick wrote:[/quote]
We Humans, the sons and daughters of Adam are not born of water?Ok lets just say you are correct. Then your flesh is born again and should go directly to heaven when you perish. Is this scriptural?
Where is your scripture that says we must be born of water “again”. The truth is their are none. The truth is that we are not entirely born again. We must wait for our adoption, the redemption of our body. If your body were born again of water (baptism) then your flesh would be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven But (according to scripture) we all know that our flesh is as dirty rags to God and the flesh will die and be reborn in the resurrection.
Again it is not the water or the bread and wine that saves us. It is the “blood” of the Lamb that saves.
That which is flesh is flesh. 1Co 15:46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
What is the natural in 1Cor. 15:46?But the natural will not be saved. Flesh and blood can't enter into the New Kingdom. Neither the angels! We are of an entirely new creature.
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