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I believe that a person can lose their salvation. I will quote some verses that seem to back this up.
Revelation 2
To the church in Ephesus:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love.
5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.To the Church in Sardis
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.To the Church in Laodicea
15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!
16 So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold, I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.I will post more when I come across them.
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.So it appears that your name can be removed from the Book of Life.
Once saved always saved is technically correct and that is part of the deception. Salvation is an event and you can’t lose a past event anymore than you can lose your eigth birthday.
The REAL question here is whether or not a person who has experienced the Eph 2:8 salvation event can fall short of salvation at the end of the age when Jesus comes in glory.
The Biblical answer is a resounding YES. A saved person can indeed fall short of salvation.
HINT: Ephesians 2:8 salvation is NOT Heb 9:28 salvation. They are 2 different things.
This false doctrine of once saved always saved is like the doctrine of the rapture. It comes from the thirteenth
chapter of the deceived preacher boys imagination.
Remember the Creator says Himself that He NEVER CHANGES.
YechetzqYAH ( Eze.) 18:4-32 makes it very clear that NONE of the righteousness of a righteous man will be remembered if he turns from doing what is right. Rev.22:14 state that the only ones that will enter the gates are those who KEEP the Commandments. This word Commandments comes from the Hebrew word Debar and means LAWS.
Just as 1 Yahchanan ( John ) 3:4 states SIN is breaking those LAWS…so there will be NO SINNERS ( LAW BREAKERS ) in the Kingdom.
Only the righteous will be there..so what do the Scriptures say rightousness is?
You can read it for yourself in Deut.6:25 and remember Yahweh never changes!Iyyob
It is by God's grace that we are saved. The Law is the mark which we should live in order to live a righteous life. But we humans have all sinned and fallen short of that mark. So the Messiah came to us under the Law to become a sacrifice for our sins under that law, in order to fulfill the laws required punishment for us, namely death. He set us free from the curse of the law.
Now listen to the words of Christ to the Keepers of the Law in Matthew 23:23 (English-NIV)
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices, mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.Here we can see that Christ condemned the Pharisees not because they didn't obey the letter of the law, because they did. No, he condemned them for not obeying the spirit of the law, which is justice and mercy.
This is why Christ said in Matthew 23:2-3 to do as they say, but not as they do.
2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.If we love God with all our heart, soul and mind and we love our fellow man as we love ourself, then we fulfil the law in spirit.
Galatians 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Mark 12:28-34
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.”
32 “Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him.
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.Romans 13:8-10
8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.Therefore we are to keep the spirit of the Law lest we become like the Pharisees who only kept the letter of the law. Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law for us and if we are to keep the spirit of the law, we must love and show mercy. In doing such things we fulfill the law and the lack of love and mercy will incur the judgement of God.
A PERSON CAN NOT LOSE THEIR SALVATION
You are missing an important point. Nothing man does merits salvation. This includes good deeds, asking forgiveness, proclaiming Christ, "continuing in the faith," etc. Salvation is a gift from God, based on His mercies alone. We don’t deserve it; that’s why it is called "mercy." He saved us "…not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy…"(Titus 3:5). Christianity is the only religion in the world that teaches salvation by grace. The Bible says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Once God has granted salvation, why on earth would He take it back? Would God remove a person’s salvation because he or she was a sinner? Did not He offer us salvation "while we were still sinners"? John the disciple said, "Beloved, now we are children of God" (1 John 3:1). The Father protects His children. Jesus said, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand" (John 10:28-29). Jesus also protects us. He said, "Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition [Judas], that the Scripture might be fulfilled" (John 17:12).
The Christian who becomes unfruitful will lose his reward. The apostle Paul said this of the unfruitful Christian, "If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire" (I Corinthians 3:15). The unfruitful believer will not lose his salvation, but he will lose his reward.
For a more in depth look at salvation, read on…
Those whom God, according to His purpose, calls to the communion of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by the Holy Spirit, He also delivers from the dominion and slavery of sin, though in this life He does not deliver them altogether form the body of sin and from the infirmities of the flesh.
By reason of these remains of indwelling sin, and also because the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who are converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who, having conferred grace, mercifully confirms and powerfully preserves them therein, even to the end.
But God, who is rich in mercy, according to His unchangeable purpose of election, does not wholly withdraw the Holy Spirit from His own people even in their grievous falls; nor suffers them to proceed so far as t lose the grace of adoption and forfeit the state of justification, or to commit the sin unto death or against the Holy Spirit; nor does He permit them to be totally deserted, and to plunge themselves into everlasting destruction.
Thus it is not in consequence of their own merits or strength, but of God’s free mercy, that they neither totally fall from faith and grace nor continue and perish finally in their backslidings; which, with respect to themselves is not only possible, but would undoubtedly happen; but with respect to God, it is utterly impossible, since His counsel cannot be changed nor His promise fail; neither can the call according to His purpose be revoked, nor the merit, intercession, and preservation of Christ be rendered ineffectual, nor the sealing of the Holy Spirit be frustrated or obliterated.
Of this preservation of the elect to salvation and of their perseverance in the faith, true believers themselves may and do obtain assurance according to the measure of their faith, whereby they surely believe that they are and ever will continue true and living members of the Church, and that they have the forgiveness of sins and life eternal.
This assurance, however, is not produced by any peculiar revelation contrary to or independent of the Word of God, but springs from faith in God’s promises, which He has most abundantly revealed in His Word for our comfort; from the testimony of the Holy Spirit, witnessing with our spirit that we are children and heirs of God (Rom 8:16); and lastly, from a serious and holy desire to preserve a good conscience and to perform good works. And if the elect of God were deprived of this solid comfort that they shall finally obtain the victory, and of this infallible pledge of eternal glory, they would be of all men the most miserable.
The Scripture moreover testifies that believers in this life have to struggle with various carnal doubts, and that under grievous temptations they do not always feel this full assurance of faith and certainty of persevering. But God, who is the Father of all consolation, does not suffer them to be tempted above that they are able, but will with the temptation make also the way of escape, that they may be able to endure it (1 Cor 10:13), and by the Holy Spirit again inspires them with the comfortable assurance of persevering.
The carnal mind is unable to comprehend this doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the certainty thereof, which God has most abundantly revealed in His Word, for the glory of His Name and the consolation of pious souls, and which He impresses upon the hearts of the believers. Satan abhors it, the world ridicules it, the ignorant and hypocritical abuse it, and the heretics oppose it. But the bride of Christ has always most tenderly loved and constantly defended it as an inestimable treasure; and God, against whom neither counsel nor strength can prevail, will dispose her so to continue to the end. Now to this one God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be honor and glory forever. Amen.
This rejects those:
Who teach: That the perseverance of the true believers is not a fruit of election, or a gift of God gained by the death of Christ, but a condition of the new covenant which (as they declare) man before his decisive election and justification must fulfil through his free will.
For the Holy Scripture testifies that this follows out of election, and is given the elect in virtue of the death, the resurrection, and the intercession of Christ: "What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened (Rom 11:7)." Likewise: "He who did not spare His own Son, but gave him up for us all–how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ (Rom 8:32-35)?"
Who teach: That God does indeed provide the believer with sufficient powers to persevere, and is ever ready to preserve these in him if he will do his duty.
"He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Cor 1:8)."
Who teach: That the true believers and regenerate not only can fall from justifying faith and likewise from grace and salvation wholly and to the end, but indeed often do fall from this and are lost forever.
For this conception makes powerless the grace, justification, regeneration, and continued preservation by Christ, contrary to the expressed words of the apostle Paul: "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him (Rom 5:8-9)." And contrary to the apostle John: "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God (1 John 3:9)." And also contrary to the words of Jesus Christ: "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of
my Father’s hand (John 10:28-29)."Who teach: That the faith of those who believe for a time does not differ from justifying and saving faith except only in duration.
For Christ Himself, in Matt 13:20, Luke 8:13, and in other places, evidently notes, beside this duration, a threefold difference between those who believe only for a time and true believers, when He declares that the former receive the seed on stony ground, but the latter in the good ground or heart; that the former are without root, but the latter have a firm root; that the former are without fruit, but that the latter bring forth their fruit in various measure, with constancy and steadfastness.
But if a man has salvation and turns his back on God, (openly denies him) then does God go against that persons free will?
The Angels were perfect and some rebelled against him and they got what they chose. The same for men who have tasted of the age to come and turn away.
We do not lose salvation due to sin, because we who are saved have a covenant with the one who saved us that our sins are forgiven. In this case yes we can gain or lose reward. Even the man who's works burn down in judgement will still be saved if he is found on the rock.
But if a man chooses to turn away from God, then that is his choice is it not?
Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.THE TRUE MEANING OF REVELATION 3:5
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment: and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5
This verse is one of the wonderful verses addressed to believers that is often overlooked and misunderstood. Perhaps the reason that the verse is overlooked by many is because most Christians do not understand the "overcomer".
Who is an overcomer? This question is clearly answered in I John 5:4,5 where we read, "for whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Therefore, an overcomer is clearly a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. We become overcomers not on the basis of what we have or will accomplish, but on the basis of the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary. So, therefore, we know that Revelation 3:5 is addressed to those that are born of God, those who have trusted Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
The first promise in Revelation 3:5 to an overcomer is that he or she "…shall be clothed in white raiment." This is a picture of the "righteousness of God" that is required for salvation. II Corinthians 5:21 tells us, "For he hath made him (Jesus Christ) to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." In other words, Jesus Christ traded places with us on the cross of Calvary. He took our sin upon himself in order that He might give us His righteousness. This is pictured in the Old Testament as a "garment of salvation" or a "robe of righteousness." Our righteousness based on our deeds are filthy rags according to Isaiah 64:6. "But we are all as an unclean things, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)."
Isaiah 61:10 reads, "I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness." Therefore, the promise is that every believer (overcomer) shall be clothed in white raiment speaking of the righteousness of God (II Corinthians 5:21).
The second promise to a believer (overcomer I John 5:4,5) is, "I will not blot out his name out of the book of life." I believe, according to Revelation 3:5, that the Bible teaches that everyone’s name is in the book of life. This is contrary to what most people have been taught. When a person dies in unbelief not having trusted Jesus Christ as Saviour, his name will be blotted out. At the final judgment for unbelievers, who are cast into the lake of fire, their names will not be found in the book of life, because they will have been blotted out (Revelation 20:10-15).
A most interesting Scripture on this point is found in Exodus 32. The children of Israel had greatly sinned against the Lord in making gods of gold to worship. Moses interceded on the behalf of the people. Let’s look at the passage. "And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin –; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book (Exodus 32:31-33)." Remember, according to Revelation 3:5, if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will not blot your name out. What is the sin that can cause your name to be blotted out? It is unbelief. It is the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour. This is the unpardonable sin. (See John 3:36, I John 5:12).
In John 3:18 we have this unpardonable sin given. "He that believeth on him is not condemned; but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." A person living in unbelief is living in a condemned state already. If that person puts their trust in Jesus Christ as Saviour before they die, God promises in Revelation 3:5 that "…I will not blot out his name from the book of life…" If that person dies in unbelief, then at that point, God blots their name out of the book of life.
The believer will be clothed with the righteousness of God, and his name will never be blotted out of the book of life. In other words, you can never be lost once you trust the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour.
The third promise, if you are an overcomer/believer, is that Jesus Christ promises, "I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." We are not told much about what is presently happening in heaven, but we are informed that "there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth (metanoia – change of mind, Luke 15:10)."
What happens at the moment of salvation, according to Revelation 3:5, is that an announcement is made in heaven that you have trusted Christ, (as Jesus said, "before my Father; and before his angels". (Compare Revelation 3:5 and Luke 15:10.) Evidently, great joy follows the announcement in Heaven.
Remember the key to understand to whom this verse is addressed if found in I John 5:4,5. I John says, "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." If you trust in God, the three promises of Revelation 3:5 are yours.
Hi,
joejoe teaches a popular false gospel. Salvation by believing and turning to God and trusting Him. Like the other one of obeying the commandments to be saved it is not the way of Jesus.
Jesus does not lose any sheep but 2 Tim 2.11 tells us we can reject our own salvation.
Likewise the parable of the talents tells us those who are faithless and fearful and never use the grace given us can also be cast into the outer darkness.Does this mean they are ioutside the new Jerusalem wall as in Rev22.15?To Nick,
How has joejoe preached a false gospel? I thought that he preached straight from scripture. Perhaps I overlooked something?
Also regarding losing ones salvation, I offer the following:
Colossians 1:21-23
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation–
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.Hi t8,
joejoe is right about so much. He may have been right in everything but perhaps did not fully express it.Salvation is a gift and
We need to believe in God.
We need to trust in God.
We need to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ.But we also need to repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the remission of our sins and be raised with him by receiving the Spirit of God. We need to be born again of water and the Spirit. Without these things spoken the gospel preached is false.
Belief alone is insufficient.
Trust alone is insufficient.We are only clothed in the righteousness of Christ through baptism. Faith and trust without obedience is insufficient. The listeners at Athens were not without a certain faith and they did not reject the gospel but invited Paul back to entertain them some more. His visit there was wasted for them because they did not respond as the Bereans did or the listeners to Peter did in Acts 2.
If all that was necessary was faith and trust then Jesus did not need to suffer and die. No sacrifice was necessary. No High Priest needed to go through the veil into the Holy of Holies for us.
Jn 12. 24″..Unless a grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it remains just a grain of wheat. But if it dies it produces much fruit”
Baptism is death of the wheat for us and without it we cannot produce fruit.
joejoe may have implied these things so I accept you may see it that way. But to those who read what he said at face value, and do not realise these other things of obedience are vital, to me this is not the gospel of Jesus. I would want to be sure that what I wrote on what is the beginning of the road could not be misconstrued. Jesus is the only foundation stone that can be laid.
Do you see what I mean?
Hi T8,
I also have problems with joejoe's view of the Book of Life. He seems to say that all are saved and have their name in the Book unless they do not believe. That is the false gospel of universalism. It fits with his 'believe and trust and you will be saved' approach too.
But the Book of Life belongs to the Lamb so also to those who are in him.[rev 21.27].
The reference in Rev 3.5 is in a letter to the churches so it is a letter to the saved warning them not to be complacent or rebellious.
It is the Book of those who have laboured with Paul in promoting the gospel [Phil 4.3].
It is the Book of those whose names are inscribed in heaven shown by the signs of the power of God in them[Lk 10.20].
It is the Book of eternal life[zoe].What do you think?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2004,15:25) joejoe is right about so much. He may have been right in everything but perhaps did not fully express it.
I have found that even the biblical writers do this. They talk about salvation often but do not spell it out, like you have done in your second to last post. It seems that our message of salvation comes from many parts of the bible and has been put together. But if joejoe preaches a false gospel, then I cannot honestly see how the biblical writers were preaching the correct gospel either. To me it looked like joejoe was preaching from what these writers were saying and if we condemn his words then we condemn the ones who wote them.E.g. Paul says in Romans 10:13
for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”In context it says:
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile–the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.Paul didn't mentioned to the Romans in this part of his letter and while he was on this subject, anything about baptism in water nor of the Spirit. So if we condemn joejoe, then do we not have to condemn Paul too.
Lets imagine that Paul made a post to this forum and the content was Romans 10-9-17. Then should we condemn his message too because he talks about salvation and doesn't mention baptism. I have found many scriptures that talk about salvation and that do not mention water baptism. What then are we to think? Does a man preach a false gospel if he teaches about salvation and doesn't mention baptism?
If so, then how do the biblical writers escape this conclusion? They appear to me to do it often, especially in the gospels.
I agree to a point t8,
Of course the true context of the verse in Romans 10 is the letter to the Romans. In chapters 1-6 he clearly expounds the need for, and purpose of Baptism in salvation.Paul also speaks of those “who are sent”, those “who preach” , and “what” they preach-the message which is the “Word Of Christ”.
And the Word of Christ was to be born again of water and the spirit.
What they preached was to repent believe and be baptised and you will receive the gift of the Spirit.
Anyone looking in the Book of Acts will see that is what they preached and it it brought the harvest.
So out of context Romans 10 is not that message. It is not wrong and it is truth but it is not the message that Paul or we should preach as the way of salvation.
Do you see what I mean?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2004,16:48) I also have problems with joejoe's view of the Book of Life. He seems to say that all are saved and have their name in the Book unless they do not believe. That is the false gospel of universalism. It fits with his 'believe and trust and you will be saved' approach too.
To Nick,joejoe said the following:
The third promise, if you are an overcomer/believer, is that Jesus Christ promises, “I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” We are not told much about what is presently happening in heaven, but we are informed that “there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth (metanoia – change of mind, Luke 15:10).”
What happens at the moment of salvation, according to Revelation 3:5, is that an announcement is made in heaven that you have trusted Christ, (as Jesus said, “before my Father; and before his angels”. (Compare Revelation 3:5 and Luke 15:10.) Evidently, great joy follows the announcement in Heaven.
He talks about belief, trust and repentance. But I think that we in the western world have lost sight of what it means to truly believe in something. Yes you can believe as the demons do, but to truly believe in God is to trust in him too.
Here are 2 scriptures that use the same word believe, yet they obviously talk about belief at 2 levels. An intellectual or belief in the mind and a true belief in God (from the heart)that results in faith in God.
Mark 16:17
And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder.But can we condem someone's message who says that we must believe in God to be saved? Because if the answer is yes, then I do not honestly see how the biblical writers can escape that condemnation.
I also think that it is necessary that we do believe in God for salvation. As it is written:
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 18 2004,18:20) Paul also speaks of those “who are sent”, those “who preach” , and “what” they preach-the message which is the “Word Of Christ”.
And the Word of Christ was to be born again of water and the spirit.
What they preached was to repent believe and be baptised and you will receive the gift of the Spirit.
Anyone looking in the Book of Acts will see that is what they preached and it it brought the harvest.
So out of context Romans 10 is not that message. It is not wrong and it is truth but it is not the message that Paul or we should preach as the way of salvation.
Do you see what I mean?
Yes I do see what you are saying and I do not disagree with that. But I still cannot see how we can condemn what joejoe said. He was simply teaching from the scripture and what he said was correct in my opinion. I see his teaching in scripture, so I feel that I cannot condemn his words.Is a mans teaching condemened if he doesn't always explain everything? Surely if a part of the message of salvation is the focus, it is still correct. I didn't see joejoe say that we shouldn't be baptized. This kind of teaching is done often in scripture from what I have observed.
BTW: I agree that we should be baptized in water in Jesus death and in the Spirit to recieve his life. But it is also true that we must believe in God in order to be saved. The former doesn't nullify the latter.
If we think about it, anyone could be baptized in water and then ask to recieve the Spirit for these are physical acts that anyone could try. But if that persons heart was not repentant or if they did this in order to keep their job in a denomination or whatever, then what use is the baptism. For surely we must believe, trust and be willing to serve God before we even consider being baptized.
I fear that too much emphasis on baptism for salvation can lead to a neglect of the necessary condition to believe, trust and a willingness to serve our great God. We must have this in order to even consider being baptized and we must continue with such things afterward.
So I think that teaching about these things is good. I trust that you can see where I am coming from with this.
thx bro.
Sure t8,
Simon Magus was a classic example. And of course the tares arise among the wheat, the wolves dress in sheep's clothing and false prophets arise among us.
My concern is that a message similar to joejoe's, without addition, is presented in the name of Jesus all over the world in denominations AS salvation. That bothers me greatly.
Enough however.
I see “overcomer” as meaning someone who “works out their salvation” producing fruit. 1Cor 9.27 and 10.1-13 gives warning against complacency among us as does 1 Peter 4.18Hi Nick,
I thought about this and I think the difference lies in who we are addressing. If we are addressing believers who are already baptized into Christ, then we talk about things like continuing in the faith, overcoming and belief etc. We should just as the biblical writers did, be free to teach such things.
If however our audience is not saved, then the gospel is what they need and the true gospel is what we should give.
I think this also explains what could appear to be discrepencies regarding salvation in scripture. I suppose that we should realise that the letters in the bible were written to the believers so we often find teachings on salvation that do not mention baptism as I guess that this is already assumed or that it has happened already. This could be like teachings about God that do not mention that he is one, as it is just assumed that he is one and they are teaching on a different point regarding God.
So there should be a difference regarding teaching salvation to the saved and preaching the message of salvation to those without God.
We find in the gospels in particular when the disciples were talking to non-believers that the gospel is preached even before the milk and definately before the meat of the word.
I just assumed that joejoe was teaching believers and wondered why you came down hard on him, but I can see your point of view if we view his writing as the gospel for non-believers.
Anyway, even though I agreed with his post, I certainly do not hold to all that he has posted here. But then again he could have changed his mind on some things too and I could be wrong regarding any difference I might have with him. But I just thought it was right to encourage him as I thought his points were good and I hate to see good things being put down.
Anyway it is good to see that you are steadfast with the gospel and it is good that you do not budge or sacrifice the gospel for any sake.
thanx and have a great Christmas. I'm heading round the Eastcape to warmer climes for a few days and then maybe onto Northland.
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