Eschatology

Participant

The silence is deafening!

1300 members, 10 days and counting and not one response to my question.

Not too encouraging for a newbie's first post.

Is this a sacred cow subject?
Why would those interested in Bible prophecy be reluctant to state where they stand on these issues?

Is it possible that many do not know what position or group they are identified with?

There are variations among each of the groups, but if a person states up front that he or she is a ………….. it cuts to the quick, and the other person has a good idea of where they are coming from.

For those unfamiliar with these systems of interpretation, I highly recommend the book:

REVELATION Four Views … a parallel Commentary
Edited by Steve Gregg

Revelation four views is the most unbiased book I have ever read on this subject about Revelation. The editor never divulges his own position, but carefully explains the various interpretations.

Unbelievable, but true. I was banned from a Christian discussion board because I recommended this book to those interested in prophecy.

Why? Because it explained other than the owners personal view. Go figure!

January 26, 2010 at 10:55 am#173545

Participant

selah

Not a sacred cow, just very unfamiliar ground.
Revelation 17, the woman siting on the beast with seven heads represents all false religion.
The seven heads represent the seven empires of the bible; in other words, false religion has influenced all kingdoms of this world.
The seven mountains the woman sits on have nothing to do with the seven hills Rome is supposed to be build on. Mountain is a metaphor for kingdom. Fife heads, kingdoms, had already fallen; they were, the Greek empire,
the Medo-Persian empire,
the Babylonian empire,
the Assyrian empire,
the Egyptian empire.
The one “that is”, was the Roman empire. Those are six of the seven heads on that beast.
You are right as far as the pope and the Vatican is concerned.

Georg

January 26, 2010 at 11:12 am#173548

Participant

Selah: I personally do not perceive the God I serve as a vengeful, hateful God that is for some reason waiting now for a future time to somehow come to earth and kill and destroy misguided humans. Deceiving doctrine comes only to steal, kill and destroy. Jesus the prince of peace came to represent God in the earth as life giving, healing, love unto mankind. Jesus said to love your enemies. Does God even have any enemies? And will he love them or destroy them? Jesus said he came to give us life more abundant, not death and destruction. If God wanted to destroy all the misguided people of the earth he might as well start it raining again. Oh, but he promised with a rainbow forever that he would never again destroy mankind.But God will allow you to destroy yourself. The docrtine you have chosen to believe is of death. You might consider that when one judges another the judgment he pronounces he receives. You will reap what you sow of your beliefs. I believe all that don't rise up into peacful love and communion with God through Christ will continue to burn and die from sickness and disease here on earth just like they are doing now. Peace and love will always be my position in God. TK

January 26, 2010 at 11:22 am#173551

Participant

You need to take off your sunglasses when you read your Bible.

Georg

January 26, 2010 at 4:52 pm#173571

Participant

Georg; Its to bad that making smart comments doesn't save a person. If I find a God of peace, love and joy in the scriptures for those who believe Jesus and the truth he brought to us, why do you say I am in the dark? If the spirit of God is peace, love , joy, meekness, kindness, gentleness etc., then if you find God this is what you will find. Why is it that you can't see this? Have you made or believed doctrines from others (beside Jesus) that preach another gospel? Did Jesus preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God within each person? He most certainly did. It is also called the gospel of peace! Jesus is the prince of peace! God is love! Not hate and war. The very last thing this world needs is a misguided religious man that is postulating wars and killing and hurt and pain in the name of God. The middle east is already full of them. If you can't say anything good about the future maybe don't say anything? TK

January 26, 2010 at 8:20 pm#173618

Participant

If you have read the Bible, then you know God punishes those that disobey.
Did he not destroy the world with a flood?
Did he not have all the first born of Egypt killed to force Pharaoh to let his people go?
Did he not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah for their sinful way of life?
Did he not have Joshua kill all the Canaanites?
So, does that make God a God of hate?
Do you not read that all who will not listen to Jesus during the millennium will be destroyed, Acts 3:23?
What about all that follow Satan in his final rebellion after the millennium, will they not be destroyed, Rev. 20:7 – 9?
I know you must have read all that, if you read the Bible; and then to come and deny these truth is just plain dumb.
Yes, God is a God of love, but he forces no one to love him, and he forces no one to live for ever.
The kingdom of God is within you is a figure of speech meaning, if you believe the gospel and repent of your sins you will be in the kingdom, just as he promised the criminal on the cross.
Jesus will be the king in God's kingdom here on earth, ruling with the saints, Rev. 5:10.
If you think the gospel is just a gospel of peace, read Mat. 10:34-37.
All these are the words of God, if you deny them to be truth, do you not call God a liar?
You should also read what Paul says in Gal. 1:8,9; very carefully.
You are afraid of the future, are you not? you should be because God's wrath is about to be poured out on all the world, and this is what it will look like, Jer. 25:32,33.
You go ahead and keep your blindfold on, that will not save you. This world is an evil world, and God WILL punish it just before Christ will begin his reign.

Georg

January 26, 2010 at 10:53 pm#173659

Participant

Georg: There must be something wrong with you. Do you read what I write or just glance and respond. I have always prefaced the blessings of God being for the believer. If you are a believer and believers are saved from wrath then why do you continue to talk about wrath? If YOU believe the gospel the gospel is the good news from God! You quoted Mat.10:34, “Think not that I have come to send peace on the earth…”! Is that the good news to you? Or should you read a little further where he talks of receiving a righteous mans reward. God said I lay before you life and death, BUT CHOOSE LIFE that you may live…! There has always been a choice of peace with God or suffering apart from God. You are so locked in to your end-time studies which are misunderstood man made doctrines of chaos and destruction you present for the future. I am not afraid of anything! The words fear not are probably the most repeated phrase in the new testament. Fear is the opposite of faith. I am not afraid of the future, sickness, disease, God or death!! My God has given me life shall I now fear he will kill me? What would you have faith in if you fear the future? You can't believe God is going to save you from harm if you are afraid! God promised with a rainbow that he would never destroy the earth again. Your doctrines make God a liar. Where is you faith?
I don't know about the so called millennium made up of misunderstood doctrines out of revelation but I do know that the good news is for now. Feel free to live in fear, thank you I will live in faith. TK

January 27, 2010 at 1:44 am#173698

Participant

Georg,

I believe in the scriptures you presented … old and new.

Was it not God's promise that He would not destroy the earth again … by water.

Regarding your understanding as an historicist, as I had noted, there are variations within each group.

When I read Revelation 17 and 18 I get a most definite indication from the scriptures presented that it is “A” great city, not a multitude of cities (or kingdoms) that is being described.

You may not be aware of this, but partial and full preterists believe that city to be destroyed by God will be Jerusalem.

A current popular belief among futurists is that city is New York City.

When we see this total destruction (whichever city it may be) then we will know in truth and not in speculation.

January 27, 2010 at 5:37 am#173729

Ed J

Participant

Quote (selah @ Jan. 15 2010,18:59)

As a newbie here, it would help me to better understand the thinking of some of the members of this site as to the position they hold

1, Full Preterist

2, Partial Preterist

3, Historicist

4, Futurist

5, Idealist

What would be your position?

Thank you.

Hi Selah,

Welcome to the forum!

I don't believe my view of God would fall into any of your categories listed here.

I see God as: in the past, in the present, and in the future ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
In more term: Inside of of time and Outside of time AT THE SAME TIME.

What category does my explained view of God fit into?

God Bless
Ed J

January 27, 2010 at 11:16 am#173757

terraricca

Participant

hi all

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
1Co 1:11 My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
1Co 1:12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas’”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Co 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Co 1:16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
1Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

January 27, 2010 at 11:26 am#173759

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 27 2010,09:53)

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Would you agree we are living in that day?

Isa 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Would you agree that describes our time?

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Do you believe that will yet happen?

Zec 14:12 ¶ And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Do you believe that is going to happen?

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Do you think God is kidding?

Jer 25:32 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
Jer 25:33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Do you think God is just trying to scare us?

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

I read what you wright; do you read what God is saying? We are not yet in the kingdom of God; Jesus is not yet ruling this world. Do you know why so many will follow Satan in the end? because they will have the same attitude as you, that is; “I got it made”.
God promised not to destroy the earth by water again, and scriptures are not my doctrines, they are God's words, so be careful whom you call a liar.
My faith is in Jesus Christ, he is my Lord and savior.
So called made up millennium doctrines? So what your saying is; what you don't understand you dismiss as not true, is that it?
Yes, God has set before us life or death, and no, I do not live in fear, I have the truth and understand it, and truth sets you free, it is when you ignore truth or deny it, when you have to make up your own version of what truth is.
Let me just say this; ignorance will not save you, nor will blaming others, think about it.

Georg

January 27, 2010 at 11:41 am#173762

Participant

Quote (selah @ Jan. 27 2010,12:44)

Georg,

I believe in the scriptures you presented … old and new.

Was it not God's promise that He would not destroy the earth again … by water.

Regarding your understanding as an historicist, as I had noted, there are variations within each group.

When I read Revelation 17 and 18 I get a most definite indication from the scriptures presented that it is “A” great city, not a multitude of cities (or kingdoms) that is being described.

You may not be aware of this, but partial and full preterists believe that city to be destroyed by God will be Jerusalem.

A current popular belief among futurists is that city is New York City.

When we see this total destruction (whichever city it may be) then we will know in truth and not in speculation.

selah

Revelation has three chapters that show a beast with seven heads, 12, 13, and 17. Why are there seven heads on these beasts, and what do they represent?
Why are there ten horns and seven crowns on the heads of the beast in chapter 12?
Why are there ten horns and ten crowns on the heads of the beast in chapter 13, and why is it made up of the previous three empires?
Why are there ten horns and no crowns on the heads of the beast in chapter 17?
You do know that a woman is symbolic for a church or religious organization, right? So, what does the woman represent “sitting” on the beast?

Georg

January 28, 2010 at 7:41 am#174037

Participant

Thanks for the welcome Ed J

You had noted “I Don't believe my view of God would fall into any of your categories listed here.”

You are right. Our understanding of God is not really a subject of eschatology … at least that I am aware of.

But, in that you believe that the Holy City, New Jerusalem or City of God in Revelation is to be spiritually understood could put you into the category of an idealist, as they are the least literally minded of the groups.

Eschatology is the study of the last things.
For me personally, this study involves such subjects as:

The identification of the first beast of Revelation, and that of the second beast or False Prophet.

Daniel's ten horns and the little horn. Some believe the ten horns to be the present day EU when it became ten several years ago.

God's “two witnesses” … literal or spiritually understood?
The identification of the mysterious “24 elders”.

The 144 thousands of Rev 7 and Rev 14. Some believe these to be two separate groups because of a couple of details.

The “new song” of the victors (of understanding) over the image, mark and number of the beast. What is this unusual “image” and what is the identifying “mark” of the followers of the beast are hot topic subjects of prophecy.

Georg and I believe this mark or charagma to be Romanisms sign of the cross … and always displayed with the right hand, and always placed upon the forehead at baptism and on the adult followers of the beast on Ash Wednesdays.

Some futurists believe this mark to be a literal computer chip that (in the future) will be placed on the followers of the beast.

As long as their speculations are placed into the “future” who can say they are “wrong”.

Sometimes, the rider on the first white horse of Rev 6, with crown and bow comes into the discussion of prophecy.

Another topic is the destruction of Mystery Babylon and the identification of that great city that has reigned over kings of the earth.

These are just some of the subjects that are discussed by the various groups, and their particular understanding of that subject places them into the general category of a preterist, partial preterist, historicist or idealist.

Ed … you have not been pigeon holed yet!

January 28, 2010 at 11:15 am#174045

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,22:26)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ Jan. 27 2010,09:53)

Would you agree we are living in that day?

Isa 5:20 ¶ Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Would you agree that describes our time?

Do you believe that will yet happen?

Do you believe that is going to happen?

Do you think God is kidding?

Do you think God is just trying to scare us?

Georg

Georg: To support your doctrines you use only the old testament and Revelation! You would only use these without understanding that all things written in the law, prophets, and the Psalms was fulfilled in Christ.(Luke24:44)
You must not be aware that all the law and the prophets prophesied UNTIL John. (Matt.11:13)
We have found him of whom the lawAND THE PROPHETS wrote(John1:45)
Are you aware that Jesus(whom you follow?) said, the law AND THE PROPHETS were UNTIL John the baptist, and SINCE THEN the Kingdom of God is preached.(Luke 16:16) Did you know that Jesus was the fulfillment of all prophecy? Jesus came and finished the work of God. Jesus said allwritten about the son of man by the prophets were accomplished!(Luke18:31)
Jesus' ministry was to preach the Kingdom of God had come. The Lords prayer confirms that, …”thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven…”
This is the day of the Lord! We are living in the Sabbath day of rest in Christ Jesus. We are set free from the hell and torture you are proselytizing as the gospel! All the old testament was fulfilled in Jesus. There is no old testament. It has been supersceded by the New Testament of better, greater promises. Why would anyone follow the old, obsolete way when a new way has come and been sealed by Jesus! Your doctines of death and destruction are long past, try reading the first four books of the new testament. If you find Jesus you will find, peace, love, joy and forgiveness unto God. There is no other representation of Jesus!! TK

January 28, 2010 at 11:44 am#174049

Participant

I remember Jesus saying this;

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The generation in question is the one after Israel had become a nation again, 1948.

Psa 90:10 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.

Whether you count 70 years or 80 years as a generation, they have not yet past.
What do you call proselytizing, quoting scriptures?
MY DOCTRINES of death and destruction? did I write the book of Revelation?
Like I said, ignorance won't save you, neither does blaming others, especially not by calling God a liar.

Georg

Ps, the gospel was preached for a witness; you should ask yourself what that means.

January 28, 2010 at 7:54 pm#174147

Ed J

Participant

Quote (selah @ Jan. 28 2010,18:41)

Thanks for the welcome Ed J

Georg and I believe this mark or charagma to be Romanisms sign of the cross … and always displayed with the right hand,
and always placed upon the forehead at baptism and on the adult followers of the beast on Ash Wednesdays.

Ed … you have not been pigeon holed yet!

Hi Selah,

Thanks, I'm not to fond of pigeon holes.

I believe the 'sign of the cross' is precisely what is mentioned in Zech.5:1-4
Have you or Georg ever considered the cross [†] to be this curse in Zech.5:1-4?

Zech.5:1-4 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll;
the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
(These dimensions match precisely the very dimensions of a cross [†])
Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth:
for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it;
and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.
I will bring it forth, saith the LORD of hosts, and it shall enter into the house of the thief,
and into the house of him that sweareth falsely by my name: and it shall remain in the midst
of his house, and shall consume it with the timber thereof and the stones thereof.

The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 28, 2010 at 8:19 pm#174156

Participant

A cross … 20 X 10 cubits

Yes Ed … a distinct possibility considering Romanism's sign of the cross on right hand and forehead and the curse mentioned in the Zech text you provided … 5:1-4

I had never considered that application and I doubt that Georg would have either.

January 28, 2010 at 9:02 pm#174176

Ed J

Participant

Quote (selah @ Jan. 29 2010,07:19)

A cross … 20 X 10 cubits

Yes Ed … a distinct possibility considering Romanism's sign of the cross on right hand and forehead and the curse mentioned in the Zech text you provided … 5:1-4

I had never considered that application and I doubt that Georg would have either.

Hi Selah,

When we as God's people start coming together instead of arguing the same old points
over and over there will be a lot that will begin to become clearer and clearer to us!

These verses may be talking about the time of 9/11/2001.

Isaiah 30:25-26 And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill,
rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun,
and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days,
in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

January 29, 2010 at 2:09 am#174226