- This topic has 134 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 4 months ago by
.
- Posts
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 13 2007,13:47) Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 13 2007,10:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,09:27) Quote (tressyj @ Oct. 22 2007,09:54) According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch lived for 365 years. But the fragment from the book of Noah near the end of the Book of Enoch says that Methusalah consulted Enoch after Noah was born to Lamech. If you do the math, Enoch would have been 454 years old when Noah was born. Does anyone have an explanation or is this part in error?
Hi,
Do we know how old they were when sons were born to these men?
Did Enoch die?Gen. 5:24 “ And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him “.
What does “ he was not “ mean? That he just disappeared? And “ God took him “, does that mean Enoch went straight to heaven and didn’t have to die? Paul seems to agree with that thought, because he writes in;
Heb. 11:5 “ By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God “.
Enoch is only one, of a long list of faithful men and woman that Paul talks about in Hebrews chapter 11; but then he says something that seems to contradict what he just said in verse 5;
Heb. 11:13 “ These all died in faith, not having received the promise…”
Is Paul contradicting himself? Did he make a mistake? Neither!! Paul knew exactly what he was saying; he is the one that tells us in;
1 Cor. 15:50 “ Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption”.
He also says this;
Heb. 9:27 “ And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”.
And this;
1 Cor. 15:22 “ For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive”.
He also knew what Jesus had said;
John 3:13 “ And no man has ascended up to heaven…”
Does anyone doubt the word of Christ? When we read the account of Enoch we tend to forget what Paul says in;
Rom. 3:23 “ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”.
We are all sinners, and we all need a savior; when God took or translated Enoch, Jesus was a long way off. Paul tells us only after Christ’s death could we receive forgiveness for our sins;
Col. 2:13 “ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”.
Paul is saying; all these holy men and woman have died, but they are not forgotten;
Heb. 11:40 “ God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect”.
Could it be that God made an exception to the rule? NO ! There are no exceptions, there is only God’s rule, because;
Acts 10:34 “ God is no respecter of person”.
Heb. 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same jesterday, and today, and for ever.”
What then does “translated“ mean? One definition is: “To change from one place, position, etc, to another”. To me this means; from a position in life, to no position in death; from a place on the earth, to a place in the earth, grave. “Should not see death“ How many times do we say, “oh I see“, but we don’t mean seeing with our eyes. It could also mean; “should not experience death”. When we’re young we don’t think much about dying, we’re to busy thinking about living; when we get into our senior years, that all changes. We feel ourselves getting weaker and slower, we get more easily tired, we may even get sick and dependent, starting to feel lonely; your friends, if they are still alive, are just as old as you are and you may wonder; why am I still alive? To many sick people death can be quite an experience; and how often then do we hear people say; “Please God, just take me“. We may never know the reason why God took Enoch, but we do know why God took another man when his job was done, Moses. God told Moses to come up unto the mountain;
Deut. 34:1 “And Moses went up from the plains of Moab, unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gil’ead, unto Dan.”
v. 5 “So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to
the word of the LORD.”
v. 6 “And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but
no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.”
Whenever we come across a scripture that seems to contradict another, we have to always take a closer look to see what it is really saying.
Peace and Love
I've heard this convoluted self deception from the Christadelphians. Paul tells us that Enoch was “translated” as it is already explained in Gen. In Heb. he tells us that because of Enoch's faith he was “translated”, then in the paragraph afterwards he simply says that all these “died” assuming that the reader would understand that Enoch's life technically ended when he was “translated”, when he did not die of natural death like the rest of us. Elijah was similarly “translated”.When Jesus said “I am the way”, it was in an eternal context; Jesus has always been the way to the Father. He was simply trying to tell man something that we did not previously know. That's why we call it revelation.
We also have to consider Paul's Pagan doctrine of the atonement, it was never taught by Christ. God was already forgiving and has always been changeless. Jesus death was a shared human experience on our behalf not human sacrifice.
Sometimes people think to much and over analyze the bible to the point of confusion.
Colter
For your information my Husband did not get this information from the Christadelphians. He got it from God's Holy Spirit.
My Husband is not confused. If you would know my Husband you maybe would not say that of Him. When He studies first of all He never starts His studies without asking God for guidance. Second of all when He studies He takes a lot of time. At least 4 hours. So don't insult my Husband that way, it does not fit with me to well.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,09:27) Quote (tressyj @ Oct. 22 2007,09:54) According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch lived for 365 years. But the fragment from the book of Noah near the end of the Book of Enoch says that Methusalah consulted Enoch after Noah was born to Lamech. If you do the math, Enoch would have been 454 years old when Noah was born. Does anyone have an explanation or is this part in error?
Hi,
Do we know how old they were when sons were born to these men?
Yes. They were likely between 16 and 35, perhaps some fathering children as old as 70 or 80, as happens today.Stuart
Hi Nick
Quote Evolution is a myth.
There is no good scientific evidence for it.Maybe in your little world that is true. I don’t think you understand what you are dismissing though.
Quote Has someone proved Darwin was right? Let me put this in terms of the language you use. Evolution by natural selection, Darwin’s theory, is proven beyond doubt.
Quote If you value good science you should protect it from such inferential nonsense.
Surely you would not offer us implications and rationalisations as proofs?
That is not any form of science.I don’t think you would recognise the nature of science if it came up to you at a party and said ‘Hi, I’m the Nature of Science, pleased to meet you’.
Quote But that is what is happening and others build on this sandy foundation and cast feeble stones at our God. Oh, dear, your poor god. Is he unable to look after himself?
Stuart
Hi Colter
Quote The epitome of “gullible” is the theory that life is one long series of chance and happenstance, a forward march of unguided meaninglessness. If faith seems difficult then accidental life is beyond absurd. Yes, creationists are gullible to believe that evolutionary theory says this.
Quote How can you possibly say that man could not have had longer life spans in past ages? Because there would be lots of archeological and genetic evidence for it. But there isn’t, unless you can show me some?
Quote I'm an evolutionist, that is to say I believe God created the world by the technique of evolution and continue's to foster that life. But yes, sadly religion is the most stubborn of institutions, it simply will not change because it is to proud to admit that it's scientific ineptitude is just that, inept! If you believe the theory of evolution to be the best model, where does a mythological being come into it? There is no need for one to explain our existence here.
Quote Jesus warned his future followers not to put the gospel under a rock and fail to “grow it”, but we did and now are a laughing stock in the world. We're getting further and further away from reality as we continue to hold onto facts combined with fiction as the foundation of religion. Jesus was tactful when he said “you must become like little children” . The way I would put it today is, “scrap Judaism and start over!” The ‘growth’ represented by the Western Enlightenment was a tactful way of saying ‘scrap christianity and start over’.
Stuart
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 14 2007,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,13:55) Hi c,
Do you not hear Christ in the words of Paul?
Are there any other teachers of God's ways YOU WOULD CORRECT?
Hi Nick,I here Paul in Pauls words, but yes, I also can here the spirit of sincerity, a charismatic man living a “decided life”, attempting to translate his radically changed inner spiritual experience with the “spirit of truth” on our behalf.
The gospel changed with Peter and Paul after Christ left. Paul was a Roman citizen from Tarsus, a hot bed of the Mystery religions. Paul made (sincere) compromises for the sake of numbers. The mystery religions didn't disappear, they merged with Pauls NEW GOSPEL to form Christianity.
The evidence of this can be seen in the variation between Jesus' gospel which he taught for 3+ years and then Pauls Gospel about Jesus which merged Pagan concepts into Jesus'.
Make no mistake, Paul was one of the greatest religious leaders of all time, truly committed to Christ but a man no less like many other men seeking God. Jesus trumps Paul and I'm certain that Paul had no idea that his letters to the churches would one day be considered the “word of God”.
Jesus taught his followers to form a relationship with God the Father, Christians largely have a relationship with the Bible, they have made an idol out of it, a fetish.
Colter
Hi C,
So was Paul the only deceiver or were they all deceived except you?
He worked and wrote and spoke in the Spirit of Christ and you should know that Spirit.
Learn from him as Christ was in him.Hi C,
So in whose power did Peter and Paul heal the sick and even raise the dead?
Are not such things signs of the anointing of the Spirit of God?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,09:27) Quote (tressyj @ Oct. 22 2007,09:54) According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch lived for 365 years. But the fragment from the book of Noah near the end of the Book of Enoch says that Methusalah consulted Enoch after Noah was born to Lamech. If you do the math, Enoch would have been 454 years old when Noah was born. Does anyone have an explanation or is this part in error?
Hi,
Do we know how old they were when sons were born to these men?
Hi,
Since men can have their children very early why should we assume it was later in their lives just because they lived long?Hi Colter
Quote If your doctrine of doubt is true then time is infinitly short, why waste it with us happy religious people?
I don’t think you are all happy. Thehappyman is one of the most ironically miserable people I have come across, judging by his posts. I like ‘doctrine of doubt’ though. That is a great paradox, and a reasonable summary of some of my worldview.Quote “To the unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident.
No, the evolutionary result of a one-off chemical event. It is not an accident because you would expect it to happen again given the same conditions. Maybe it has, but such a replicating chemical would now be instant food for some form of life.Quote His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter.
My hopes of meaningful survival hinge on the availability of things like oxygen, food, shelter and relationships with others. Knowledge that a man was judicially executed to save me from ‘sins’ that I had not realised I had committed comes pretty low on the list of priorities.
Quote No display of energy nor expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave.
That is true for everyone, whether you choose to accept it or not.Quote The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man's only reward for living and toiling under the temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good. But such is not man's end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God's children on earth.
What a load of piffle.Quote This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.”
…and is available on easy tithing terms from our ministry team…Stuart
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 13 2007,13:47) Quote (IM4Truth @ Dec. 13 2007,10:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,09:27) Quote (tressyj @ Oct. 22 2007,09:54) According to Genesis 5:23, Enoch lived for 365 years. But the fragment from the book of Noah near the end of the Book of Enoch says that Methusalah consulted Enoch after Noah was born to Lamech. If you do the math, Enoch would have been 454 years old when Noah was born. Does anyone have an explanation or is this part in error?
Hi,
Do we know how old they were when sons were born to these men?
Did Enoch die?Gen. 5:24 “ And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; for God took him “.
What does “ he was not “ mean? That he just disappeared? And “ God took him “, does that mean Enoch went straight to heaven and didn’t have to die? Paul seems to agree with that thought, because he writes in;
Heb. 11:5 “ By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God “.
Enoch is only one, of a long list of faithful men and woman that Paul talks about in Hebrews chapter 11; but then he says something that seems to contradict what he just said in verse 5;
Heb. 11:13 “ These all died in faith, not having received the promise…”
Is Paul contradicting himself? Did he make a mistake? Neither!! Paul knew exactly what he was saying; he is the one that tells us in;
1 Cor. 15:50 “ Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption”.
He also says this;
Heb. 9:27 “ And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment”.
And this;
1 Cor. 15:22 “ For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive”.
He also knew what Jesus had said;
John 3:13 “ And no man has ascended up to heaven…”
Does anyone doubt the word of Christ? When we read the account of Enoch we tend to forget what Paul says in;
Rom. 3:23 “ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”.
We are all sinners, and we all need a savior; when God took or translated Enoch, Jesus was a long way off. Paul tells us only after Christ’s death could we receive forgiveness for our sins;
Col. 2:13 “ And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses”.
Paul is saying; all these holy men and woman have died, but they are not forgotten;
Heb. 11:40 “ God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect”.
Could it be that God made an exception to the rule? NO ! There are no exceptions, there is only God’s rule, because;
Acts 10:34 “ God is no respecter of person”.
Heb. 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same jesterday, and today, and for ever.”
What then does “translated“ mean? One definition is: “To change from one place, position, etc, to another”. To me this means; from a position in life, to no position in death; from a place on the earth, to a place in the earth, grave. “Should not see death“ How many times do we say, “oh I see“, but we don’t mean seeing with our eyes. It could also mean; “should not experience death”. When we’re young we don’t think much about dying, we’re to busy thinking about living; when we get into our senior years, that all changes. We feel ourselves getting weaker and slower, we get more easily tired, we may even get sick and dependent, starting to feel lonely; your friends, if they are still alive, are just as old as you are and you may wonder; why am I still alive? To many sick people death can be quite an experience; and how often then do we hear people say; “Please God, just take me“. We may never know the reason why God took Enoch, but we do know why God took another man when his job was done, Moses. God told Moses to come up unto the mountain;
Deut. 34:1 “And Moses went up from the plains of Moab, unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD showed him all the land of Gil’ead, unto Dan.”
v. 5 “So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to
the word of the LORD.”
v. 6 “And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but
no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.”
Whenever we come across a scripture that seems to contradict another, we have to always take a closer look to see what it is really saying.Peace and Love
I've heard this convoluted self deception from the Christadelphians. Paul tells us that Enoch was “translated” as it is already explained in Gen. In Heb. he tells us that because of Enoch's faith he was “translated”, then in the paragraph afterwards he simply says that all these “died” assuming that the reader would understand that Enoch's life technically ended when he was “translated”, when he did not die of natural death like the rest of us. Elijah was similarly “translated”.When Jesus said “I am the way”, it was in an eternal context; Jesus has always been the way to the Father. He was simply trying to tell man something that we did not previously know. That's why we call it revelation.
We also have to consider Paul's Pagan doctrine of the atonement, it was never taught by Christ. God was already forgiving and has always been changeless. Jesus death was a shared human experience on our behalf not human sacrifice.
Sometimes people think to much and over analyze the bible to the point of confusion.
Colter
Quote We also have to consider Paul's Pagan doctrine of the atonement, it was never taught by Christ. God was already forgiving and has always been changeless. Jesus death was a shared human experience on our behalf not human sacrifice. Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,Quote (Colter @ Dec. 14 2007,06:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 14 2007,05:15) Quote (Colter @ Dec. 14 2007,00:10) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 13 2007,13:55) Hi c,
Do you not hear Christ in the words of Paul?
Are there any other teachers of God's ways YOU WOULD CORRECT?
Hi Nick,I here Paul in Pauls words, but yes, I also can here the spirit of sincerity, a charismatic man living a “decided life”, attempting to translate his radically changed inner spiritual experience with the “spirit of truth” on our behalf.
The gospel changed with Peter and Paul after Christ left. Paul was a Roman citizen from Tarsus, a hot bed of the Mystery religions. Paul made (sincere) compromises for the sake of numbers. The mystery religions didn't disappear, they merged with Pauls NEW GOSPEL to form Christianity.
The evidence of this can be seen in the variation between Jesus' gospel which he taught for 3+ years and then Pauls Gospel about Jesus which merged Pagan concepts into Jesus'.
Make no mistake, Paul was one of the greatest religious leaders of all time, truly committed to Christ but a man no less like many other men seeking God. Jesus trumps Paul and I'm certain that Paul had no idea that his letters to the churches would one day be considered the “word of God”.
Jesus taught his followers to form a relationship with God the Father, Christians largely have a relationship with the Bible, they have made an idol out of it, a fetish.
Colter
Hi C,
So was Paul the only deceiver or were they all deceived except you?
He worked and wrote and spoke in the Spirit of Christ and you should know that Spirit.
Learn from him as Christ was in him.
Paul wasn't a deceiver, he was a charismatic man with an opinion. Jesus fit quite naturally into his other Pagan beliefs. There were no less than (3) similar atonement, blood drinking, ritual based religions which predated Pauls new gospel of Christianity. One had a savior which was born on December 25 th.Both Paul and Peter believed that Jesus was “soon to return”. They believed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, that he would soon return to be a political leader for Israel. Didn't happen, isn't going to happen, was never supposed to happen. “My kingdom is NOT of this world”!
The spirit of truth was poured out upon ALL flesh. Some of the other apostles fell out with Pauls new gospel.
But again, I like Paul, he said a lot of great things, I just don't worship him.
Colter
COLTER Tell ME FROM WHAT SCRIPTURE DOES IT TELL YOU THAT PAUL WAS A PAGAN? THAT TO ME IS AN INSULT. AS FAR AS I CAN SEE THEY ONLY CAME ON THE SCENE IN THE THIRD CENTURY. UNTIL THEN ALL CHRISTIAN WERE TORTURED AND KILLED BECAUSE THEY DID BELIEF IN JESUS AND HIS TEACHING AND NOT IN THE PAGAN BELIEF OR JEWISH BEFIEF.PEACE AND LOVE MRS.
Hi Colter,
Quote You may have overlooked my question, Why waste what little time you have with believers if your so confident in the meaninglessness of life? I have answered the question about why I post here already, in other threads. In a nutshell I care about the truth and t8’s evolution thread was where I posted first, in response to the ignorant posts of those who cannot be bothered to find out what evolution by natural selection really says. Typically people come out with the same long-disproved creationist diatribes, which are basically lies. As a philosophical agnostic I hold open the possibility that there is such a supernatural being as is described here, however as yet what I have read is laughably unconvincing. As for your fatuous and patronising quip about 'meaninglessness' of life, my life has the meaning I give it, whereas to me the meaning of live for many believers here gives a slave-like existence, not a liberated one. So much for religious freedom when you are allowed to do anything but then are later condemned for eternity for making the wrong decisions. What a slave-bound mentality that is.
Quote ps: Jesus didn't die as some sort of ransom, and he most certainly didn't die for the cause of sin, to change a changeless God. Rather he lived for our salvation, to free man from the bondage of traditional religious authority and to inspire us away from Lucifer's atheist meme. Are you saying that the death of Jesus is unimportant? That he was a political liberator for the cause of religious freedom? We have religious freedom in Western democracies now (although it is still difficult to be a non-believer in some parts of the US); is this the world that Jesus had in mind? If the whole point is individual religious freedom, why do fundamentalists want to kill doctors and blow up abortion clinics that they have no intention of using themselves?
You think atheists are infected by some active agent from satan? Apart from not believing in an Imaginary Friend, what symptoms does this show in atheists?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
We do not have the ability to prove to you the existence and activities of our God.
These things are obvious in creation and if you cannot see them then that is your problem.
So why do you come to attack the faith of others who do know Him and His love if He does not exist?
Is your attitude not an oxymoronic one?
Or perhaps you do believe and just hate Him?Hi Colter
Stu: You think atheists are infected by some active agent from satan? Apart from not believing in an Imaginary Friend, what symptoms does this show in atheists?
Quote Egotism, humanism, materialism, secularism etc. Egotism! That is the perogative of the fundamentalist who believes the universe revolves around him and the special plans the creator of the whole universe has for him. Humanism is the Golden Rule put into action, so I don’t see what objection you could have. Materialism is the only thing we can definitely rely on without going into endless schism. Secularism is the only guarantee the religious man has that he can practice his beliefs without state interference, and I support that right as the principle of secularism. You should be very careful about secularism, fundamentalists are very keen to establish their principles as laws for everyone, but they don’t seem to appreciate what life would be like if they were subjected to someone else’s superstitions.
If you think these things are the work of satan, then perhaps satan has a philosophy worth considering.
(Did you run out of ideas when you got to ‘etc’?)Quote There is nothing abnormal or wrong about honsest doubt, it's when doubt pertifies into religious doubt that we are dead. In an increasinlgy spiritual universe there is no where for the persistent doubter to go after death, they are in effect “unreal”.
Forgive me for condemning this as new-age claptrap.Quote THE VULNERABILITY OF MATERIALISM
“How foolish it is for material-minded man to allow such vulnerable theories as those of a mechanistic universe to deprive him of the vast spiritual resources of the personal experience of true religion.
Why is this foolish?Quote Facts never quarrel with real spiritual faith; theories may. Better that science should be devoted to the destruction of superstition rather than attempting the overthrow of religious faith–human belief in spiritual realities and divine values.
Religion = Superstition, as far as I am concerned.Quote … The “scientific method” is merely an intellectual yardstick wherewith to measure material adventures and physical achievements. But being material and wholly intellectual, it is utterly useless in the evaluation of spiritual realities and religious experiences.
Rubbish. Neuroscience and genetic studies are rapidly explaining the causes of religious experiences.Quote The inconsistency of the modern mechanist is: If this were merely a material universe and man only a machine, such a man would be wholly unable to recognize himself as such a machine, and likewise would such a machine-man be wholly unconscious of the fact of the existence of such a material universe.
What principle says this?Quote The materialistic dismay and despair of a mechanistic science has failed to recognize the fact of the spirit-indwelt mind of the scientist whose very supermaterial insight formulates these mistaken and self-contradictory concepts of a materialistic universe.
Supernaturalism is not factual. At best it is anecdotal, but see the comment about neuroscience and genetics above. As for dismay, that is the feeling I get when creationists tell lies to children.Quote Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.
How typically arrogant of the religious to assume that they alone can appreciate beauty.Quote The realities and values of spiritual progress are not a “psychologic projection”–a mere glorified daydream of the material mind.
What is ‘spiritual progress’? It sounds less certain than a daydream.
(Snipped incomprehensible new-age babble).Quote If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This very mechanistic concept of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and all mind is of nonmaterial origin, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.
Mind most certainly is material. Remove matter from the brain and ‘mind’ will go too. That this was written in 1955 makes this lie inexcusable.Quote The partially evolved mental mechanism of mortal man is not overendowed with consistency and wisdom. Man's conceit often outruns his reason and eludes his logic.
True! Does the writer have the honesty to turn this analysis on his own delusions?Quote The very pessimism of the most pessimistic materialist is, in and of itself, sufficient proof that the universe of the pessimist is not wholly material.
Is the pessimism of the most pessimistic believer proof that the pessimism is at least partly material?Quote Both optimism and pessimism are concept reactions in a mind conscious of values as well as of facts. If the universe were truly what the materialist regards it to be, man as a human machine would then be devoid of all conscious recognition of that very fact. Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man. One machine
cannot be conscious of the nature or value of another machine.
He has run out of ideas and is repeating himself, and his assertions are as baseless as they were last time.Quote A mechanistic philosophy of life and the universe cannot be scientific because science recognizes and deals only with materials and facts. Philosophy is inevitably superscientific. Man is a material fact of nature, but his life is a phenomenon which transcends the material levels of nature in that it exhibits the control attributes of mind and the creative qualities of spirit.
More baseless assertion of babble.
(Snipped four more repeats of the same thing).Quote The very claim of materialism implies a supermaterial consciousness of the mind which presumes to assert such dogmas. A mechanism might deteriorate, but it could never progress. Machines do not think, create, dream, aspire, idealize, hunger for truth, or thirst for righteousness. They do not motivate their lives with the passion to serve other machines and to choose as their goal of eternal progression the sublime task of finding God and striving to be like him. Machines are never intellectual, emotional, aesthetic, ethical, moral, or spiritual.
It depends what the machine has been designed to do. The retrospective design of natural selection (not actually design at all) has made humans this way. If therefore humans are not machines, so be it. This is only a semantic argument.Quote Art proves that man is not mechanistic, but it does not prove that he is spiritually immortal. Art is mortal morontia, the intervening field between man, the material, and man, the spiritual. Poetry is an effort to escape from material realities to spiritual values.
This aggrandises art in a way that is not justified, and still fails to define the spiritual.
(Snipped more new-age ramblings).Quote Mechanists–humanists–tend to drift with the material currents. Idealists and spiritists dare to use their oars with intelligence and vigor in order to modify the apparently purely material course of the energy streams.
Energy streams? This really is new age!
Snipped the rest through complete boredom. Why did you bother me with this? Have you run out of opinions of your own to share?Stuart
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 15 2007,01:57) Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?Hello kenrch,
Note “enter into his glory”. Jesus achieved something for himself, he achieved all power and authority in heaven and on earth (unquestioned) . He spent the balance of his life on the cross of human experience as a man subject to the will of God all while revealing God to man.
There is an indication that the apostles did not know where Jesus was going, why he needed to pass through the death experience like the rest of us do. He had repeatedly taught his believers that God was forgiving during his life and never conditioned that forgiveness on the barbaric death of an innocent man.
Atonement was palatable to Jewish converts to Christianity because of the sacrificial system of Judaism.
Besides, Luke was a Jewish convert of Paul, he was never taught by Jesus but rather used second hand accounts to compose his article about Jesus.
Colter
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Jesus was not the lamb of God?
Hi C,
You say,
“* he did not teach that he was to be a “slain lamb from the foundation of the world” for the sins of mankind”Neither does scripture.
That verse is poorly shown in the KJV
'Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”and every other version makes clear that what is meant is what is written in Rev 17
” 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 16 2007,02:47) Quote Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Jesus was not the lamb of God?
Luke was a Jewish convert to Christianity who was not taught by Jesus. Luke writes from the perspective that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and that he fulfilled the ALL of the OT writings.
You might note that Jesus didn't do what the Messiah was expected to do:
* he did not take up David's seat and rule a material world from Israel.
* no wrath came as predicted by John the Baptist
* He explained that his kingdom was spiritual with no special class of “chosen people”.
* he did not “soon return” as assumed by apostolic era thinkers
* he did not teach that he was to be a “slain lamb from the foundation of the world” for the sins of mankind
* he challenged man to “go and sin no more”, setting aside the delusion that sin is inherited
* he instructed us to start over, to have faith in God like a child trust his parents.
The problem wasn't Jesus, the problem was the redacted and edited writings of the priest class know as the OLD TESTAMENT. They turned inward on themselves as a people, set apart racially and nationally. The Messianic concept was misconceived and repudiated by the facts of what really happened and the true identity of the Son of God incarnate.
The wedding guest were clothed in some other sort of dress.
Colter
So we are not to believe the epistles and now we are not to believe Luke. So we are not to believe the New testament!Is that what you are saying? Jesus is not the messiah? He is not the lamb of God?
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:
The Messiah has yet to come? Hum where have I heard that?
Jesus came to give us a chance to enter into the kingdom before He comes to extinguish the earth. The kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Rev 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Quote (Colter @ Dec. 17 2007,14:12) So we are not to believe the epistles and now we are not to believe Luke. So we are not to believe the New testament! Is that what you are saying? Jesus is not the messiah? He is not the lamb of God?
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of this present evil world, according to the will of our God and Father:
The Messiah has yet to come? Hum where have I heard that?
Jesus came to give us a chance to enter into the kingdom before He comes to extinguish the earth. The kingdom of heaven is at hand!
Rev 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Kenrch,
Jesus never at anytime anywhere on any occasion said that he was going to “extinguish the earth”. Some backward apocalyptic writer got hold of Johns revelation and distorted it. The Christ from Nazareth and the one depicted in the BOR are not the same person. “By their fruits yea will know them”.
* the kingdom that Jesus established is “spiritual”, the king is the rule of the Father and Son combined in the heart of man. The Jews thought that the Messiah was to rule a material Israel. The kingdom as Jesus taught it has never really been tried, his gospel sleeps like a cocoon inside Christendom until an age when believers turn to rely solely upon him.
* we are to believe in Jesus, secondary commentary and doctrine formation should be taken in the context that they are mans opinion.
* as Jesus was being killed by religion he asked our Father in heaven to forgive the people doing it, “forgive them Father, for they know not what they do”.
Colter
OK C, Just who do you believe Jesus to be?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
