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December 7th, 2010//
As I am new to this site I extend my welcome to all members to share in the light of the Holy Spirit. I am very interested in historical foundations of the “churches” and have been searching to be closer to God by enquiring into 1 Enoch and the foundations of occidental and oriental belief structure debating Pelagius and Augustine and the effects of Manichaeism on the foundations of Christianity.
In my opinion at this time, the Book of Enoch and his history may have been “erroneously” left out of scripture for the sake of simplicity and political control. Where such a book belies explanation, its origin dates previous to the foundations of Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, it is the essence of the Septuagint founding Israel and the Jewish faith, and it was universally held as a justified faith foundation throughout the middle east and orient prior to being supplanted by imperial decree and the foundation of an Augustinian church.
It is my belief that previous to the flood there were no religions as such but faith for faith and the existence of God were universal life truths lived by the faithful, and for such faith first adherence, God interacted deeply within the precincts of mankind. The Book of Enoch defines both this lifestyle and the interaction of God with man and God’s will to educate and guide man. I feel the book of Enoch like Daniel or Revelation may not speak to all Christians and that the very essence of such a powerful reference may well have inspired fear in the early fathers of Christianity to the point that such “magic” or “sorcery” references were so labeled where science was not prevalent in a society that claimed religion as the justification of knowledge for political means.
Enoch is not about religion it is about faith and co-existence with God in a world of sin.
To initiate discussion I have copied a letter to a brother in Christ and invite all other faithful to discuss openly in the light of the Holy Spirit. Christ bless this discussion and guide us all to your truth.
<< It is very easy as humans to equate our own social and emotional weakness with a lack of faith and easier to associate the lives of others in terms of a lack of faith or conviction. My church and that of my wife and child is that of all mankind. Although we are Catholic Christians, we do not discriminate religiously and accept good and evil as part of our lives. We do not limit our thoughts and ways to singularities that define by the very prejudices you infer in your deliberations on my condition, on our own weakness, our inability to adhere to stringent religious purposes. We define our living faith first. We find strength in the knowledge imbued by the Holy Spirit and the hope and love we demonstrate daily in our vocations and towards others of all religions and those without. We do not pick at the frailties of others for the sake of justifying a religious concept or dogma. We simply accept God's will as it is; and if this week he desires I should entertain the “Catholic” churches ideals and community, then so be it. I am Catholic historically, I have also enjoyed other religious experiences. I offer to you in discussion your very questions that define the Roman Catholic Church and the Lord’s name in vain. Yes I am French Canadian, I am also Polish. This would make me Catholic and Orthodox and perhaps with the Métis blood that runs in my veins, I would also be defined by Catholic prejudice as a pagan. Although historically there may be certain vanities in the colloquial language, these too are not faith based but are politically oriented social responses to religious control of freedom. I do not equate faith and politics as one should not serve two masters. I take great offense to anyone taking the lord's name in vain in any context or language as I cannot begin to define myself in the context of the very name of God. To do so is hideous blasphemy as far as my views are concerned. Just as no man has the right to defile the very name of God, no man has the right to defile the spirituality of another man in the presence of God’s name. This is an act of hatred. Such a reaction may be politically sound but it has no reckoning to God’s will. I offer in discussion the newly proven Gospel of Judas and other Gnostic texts and ask you, “If the actual Bible was so divinely inspired, and if Jesus was divine and chose 12 apostles, where are the other 8 gospels not listed?” Was it not Christ’s intent in the Pentecost that all these speak in His Name? How can one truly intent on religious fervor and insistence on the verity of religion be so limiting in context of understanding the whole truth? Why would any entity desire to censure God’s word? Did not Judas suffer enough as the one beloved who was chosen to sacrifice the master? Did his faith not justify his actions contrary to the Catholic supposition of despair? Why would a doctrine founded in love and forgiveness define hatred contrary to God’s will; it could not have been God’s will to condemn a mortal man for the sake of his Son could it? Could Christ have hated his betrayer; that seems impossible by the very institution of the lamb sacrifice and if in such God intended the salvation of all, certainly Judas’ part in the passion was necessary for the rest of the church to begin: therefore as Christ is universal in his love, Judas must have been forgiven. Judas was not Satan after all, he was just a man. Perhaps by the very love that defined Christ, and as the holder of the office of secretary for Christ's church, Judas’ human obligations were so immense and the “betrayal on top of that; after he had done his Lord's command he simply could not humanly conceive the wholeness of his sacrifice and died alone; in so, died for Christ. While with Christ in fellowship, he was saved by Christ's knowledge and love and Christ gave to him the strength to do what he did. After Christ was condemned Judas had but human weakness. If it were not for Judas’ own strength and will to see over and above human limitations, Christ would not have been betrayed. Likely, would you betray your own blood or your best friend if he asked you to for the sake of the greater good? How would your other friends feel? Even at the supper the other apostles did not know who was to betray Him and even questioned themselves. Christ did know in advance, this is factual: wasit devine knowledge or was it prepared? It had to be prepared well in advance. Judas had to be prepared. This is empirical data that must go to define the essence of the relationship with Judas that Christ tendered for his purposes. Sociologically speaking, the Catholic dogma of despair and Judas and the justification of hate is a reasonable hypothesis. Psychologically it is sound in human terms but can the will of Christ be defined within the same parameters. Despair is human and pity is Christian. Such condemnation defined by Catholic dogma is in opposition to itself by faith purpose. Christianity by itself cannot define justified hatred that would be against the will of the Father. Scientifically it doesn’t make empirical sense and debates itself theologically. Therefore where the religious tenet redefines the faith foundation, the religion must be incorrect if the faith structure is sound. Sinful nature must be overcome by God’s will otherwise man gains nothing from faith. God’s forgiving nature defines his love which defines life in the Spirit, which defines life in faith in a world of sin. Judas had to be forgiven or there is no reason to forgive at all. Certainly with a special intent and care from Christ towards Judas, some means of preparation was required as the others would have certainly needed a scapegoat after the fact. Christ would have known this. Christ would have pitied Judas. Perhaps too the fears of the other apostles may well have resulted in a lynch mob reaction, Judas would have expected this as he was an educated man if he held the office of secretary. Christ would have expected this and pitied Judas more so. If Judas were my brother I would have to take him into my house and console him if I were Christian; still he was left alone without Christ, his mind died, his soul died, and he had to die physically as all humanity rejected him. It is very sad. All dogma aside, without Judas, there would have been no betrayal act to initiate the passion sequence, no resurrection, and no Church. Open review of the scriptural contexts is necessary to achieve such unconventional standards that define such courage in one’s faith. It is not without first adhering to the truth of the word first that we can be lead to any further understanding of God's will; and it is not without a will to fully understand faith first, hope and love that we are able to become the instruments of God's good will. With this in mind, regardless of what religion we chose to exercise our faith in, where we live in the light of the Spirit and trusting in God regardless of what He may ask of us, by simplifying our faith in love, we find strength in the Trinity. Like a child who waits on a good story before bed so too must have been Judas waiting for a happy ending secure with the parent guiding him. The faulty nature of a religion first view is also discussed by Paul in New Testament gospels. Therein too, how can a butcher of men become the writer of the very foundations of a belief that has survived? Certainly it is not by church credentials that he was chosen, it was by the very Spirit that guides us all and by the very hand of Christ on him that he was chosen. Before the establishment of unified church doctrine; it was Paul who first attacked the establishment of the church as a Roman and then as a believer in a living Christ wrote to the many churches praising and chastising for the lack of full understanding of the will of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and stating that it is not by works alone that we offer in Christ our faith. Could Christ have chosen yet another murderer? He also reprimanded those who lived by faith alone and who did not offer in service to the community as he was a tradesman who worked in the community as a tent maker. Judas was a secretary. This is not to say all tradesman are blessed or those who work other offices are not; it demonstrates that we all must oblige our God and his faith first in all we do in our lives as this is God's will: that we go forth in unity and diversity to exemplify the very mysteries God bestowed on Judas to give him the faith, the hope, and the love enough to kill a best friend for the sake of the heavens and our war against evil. It is such faith and living with God that seems to be exemplified in the book of Enoch. A faith that is based in a living God and a social existence with Christ as the imperative defined in this ancient reference. Perhaps in such simplicity it became too dangerous to allow the church to undertake such freedom in its founding centuries. All the same, the book is now made available to the faithful for such introspection of faith, just as are other texts such as the Nag Hamady library and the Judas text. Christ could not have resurrected had he not died. We cannot be reborn unless we die to the same truth. The whole order of the “Christian” faith concept is based in such and could not have been born to us had such instruction and adherence not been defined in Judas’ commitment to purpose and faith. Hatred and unforgiveness is not part of this plan and in consideration of newly revealed texts, God is calling us to deliberate and liberate scientific truth and spiritual truth together through scientific and theological analysis of facts. We cannot deny the new anthropological and archeological historical truths that are defined every year. We owe it to our faith to open our hearts to greater truths to understand greater love of God and our fellow man. In my heart of hearts Judas was a hero to the faith and a very brave one at that. So in such understanding I continue on my faith journey fully knowing it is God's will for me not to adhere to a single dogma or faith pattern but to remain open in the Spirit so as to be able to understand the fullness of his will for humbled me. There is much to divine love in that it may allow us to accept those who hate us and vice versa. We owe it to our opposition to analyze and know more for the sake of peace. We owe it to God to know because he has prepared us for more and set before us challenges daily. For such love we must be willing even to put aside the very foundations of who we are for the sake of God's everlasting peace. We must be willing to put aside religion and take up faith first for a greater good, for world peace. >>
Merry Christmas
Jacques F. Boulet
Cc : Corpus Christi, hear my humble prayer for peace
Hi wolfzone77,
Welcome to h-net!
God's book (the Bible) is exactly the way he wanted it to be.
I have explained how God even encoded his existence in it. (Click Here)
The book of Enoch was probably left out of canon because of the book of the luminaries.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWolfzone77: Thank you for that enlightning disertation of fundamental truth and fact. So many have their understanding blocked or at least tainted by religious dogmas, doctrines, and man made rituals and actions, ways in and ways out of union with God/love.
A while back I saw that religion: mans ideas about God, was distorted from the beginning. Religion was found to be a powerful way to control people and profit from from them. Without wasting time here to breakdown further, we need to unshackle ourselves with the bottom line truth that Jesus gave us. Example being his lack of expounding on his statements to the masses of people. He simply said “Whosoever…believes…has….wants….finds…..searches….seeks….knocks, etc., the door of truth will open to them personally! He did not embellish the truth with rituals, buildings, names, dress modes, candles, music, special songs, alters, laws, sin consciousness, do's & don't's, et.al.! Just believe God is, and he is a rewarder of those that diligently search for him. The gospel is now, not someday in the future. As one finds God's truth it is good news for now and later. Its not going to come someday later.
The kindom of God is in the heart of man where he can go and commune with his creator and hopefully learn the depth of love whereof he is loved. God/love is not trying to control what people do or don't do. As we see his love to us, we are able to love our brothers the same. God Bless you, TK
To all,
I have heard of three books of Enoch. From the way it is described 1 Enoch appears to be a corrupted version since there are differences between Jude's quote and the parallel writing from 1 Enoch and Jesus claims Angels are not given in marriage nor do they marry in contradiction to the claims of 1 Enoch.
On the other hand the writers of the new testament appear to be a mystic tradition that put stock in a version of Enoch that does not seem available to us today. If it is needed God will reveal it and his people will know it for what it is.
From the little I know of the other two books of Enoch they too seem corrupted.
Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 09 2010,05:50) To all, I have heard of three books of Enoch. From the way it is described 1 Enoch appears to be a corrupted version since there are differences between Jude's quote and the parallel writing from 1 Enoch and Jesus claims Angels are not given in marriage nor do they marry in contradiction to the claims of 1 Enoch.
On the other hand the writers of the new testament appear to be a mystic tradition that put stock in a version of Enoch that does not seem available to us today. If it is needed God will reveal it and his people will know it for what it is.
From the little I know of the other two books of Enoch they too seem corrupted.
Hi Kerwin,Are you overlooking Gen.6:1-2?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd J.
I am not as I am convinced the sons of God are the sons of Seth and the sons of Man are the sons of Cain. Like the Jews the act of marriage between the people of God and those who are not the people of God was forbidden. The violation by mankind was a symptom of the evil deed of the people of that time.
Interpreting it that way removes the need to develop an explanation why the actions of the angels contradicts what Jesus states later.
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