- This topic is empty.
- Posts
It's occurring to me that Matthew 24:1, 2 and 15 are tied together, and that it is possible that the Mosque is what is meant by the “Abomination of the Desolation” in the Holy Place, and not a person/”antichrist.”
Matthew 1-3
Matt 24:1) Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.
Matt 24:2) And Jesus said to them, “do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
Matt 24:3) Now as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?”*BEGINNING OF SORROWS AND PERIOD OF TRIBULATION FOR BELIEVERS…*
Matt 24:15)Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads let him understand), then let those who are in Judea flee…
Something stands at the holy place.
a) The Temple was there in the day of Jesus.
b) Jesus said it would be torn down. And it has
c) That something/one else would be standing in the holy place, and there is.Daniel 9:25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.
Daniel 9:26) And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, the end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27) Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate [desolator].
**We know that Messiah has come and that the sanctuary has been destroyed. I don't know about a flood in Israel…but perhaps this fast forwards into the future.
And till the end of which war?
And what desolations? Can Israel be said to be desolated now? They certainly have had desolations.
Who is this that brings an end to sacrifice and offering…and what sacrifice and offering if the Temple is clearly destroyed? Does anyone know or are we holding to the common understanding that the Temple shall be rebuilt again?
This passage says nothing about rebuilding and neither did Jesus.
One who makes desolate on the wing of aborminations.
Consummation poured out on the desolator.
One thing to take into consideration against my idea is that the Mosque has been there for quite sometime now. But it is there, and that after the destruction of the temple.
Any other insights, you guys?Nothing yet, but your view is certainly worth considering.
There does however appear to be a sense of urgency regarding this desolation. It says to not even go into one's house to grab your jacket, but just leave. It also says something like “woe to woman with young children in those days and pray that it will not be Winter when it happens”. So it appears that it can happen in a season (part year).
What do others think?
Hi Cubes and t8
The reference to the flight from Judea I believe it is a prophecy only for Israel. After all that is the country Judea is in and I believe it relates to the time of Jacob's trouble. Terrible suffering for the Jews with massive losses die to the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentile armies. Does it not say 1/3rd die somewhere?
I am thinking it is also relating to Rev 12.13 when the woman is persecuted.with a Mosque being in the place of the temple , this woud fit with the moon turning to blood, God's word is all about worship , and we know by history the people of the Mosque worship the moon , and we know now that they are a bloobie religion , not all but the one's who claim they speak for in truth are teaching killing ane hate, and they think they are killing in the name of god
Hello nahash, welcome to the discussion. Current world events certainly makes it hard to ignore a lot of things. I hadn't made the association w/ the moon seeing that there would be great chaos, but it's one to keep on the back burner as we consider these things.
NICK & t8: I considered the Judea-Only factor –and perhaps it is — but I wonder. When it says let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains, it suggests that the situation may not be limited to Judea. Also Matt 24:22-23 talks about unprecedented time of Tribulation in world history and that unless those days are shortened, NO FLESH would be saved, but that for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Now the elect are all over the world and not confined to Israel so that also suggests that although Judea would be in the thick of it, there would be enough trouble to go around and we should be praying against that day now, as Jesus advised.
I just did a google search on the Temple Mount and came across some interesting stats. I am impressed by this writing in the Midrash Tanchuma, the prayer in the Jewish prayer book and the topography which shows that the Mount of Olives overlooked the temple. This paints a picture of Matt 24:1-3 indeed.
As the navel is set in the centre of the human body,
so is the land of Israel the navel of the world…
situated in the centre of the world,
and Jerusalem in the centre of the land of Israel,
and the sanctuary in the centre of Jerusalem,
and the holy place in the centre of the sanctuary,
and the ark in the centre of the holy place,
and the foundation stone before the holy place,
because from it the world was founded.”
Midrash Tanchuma, Qedoshim.Apparently, The Dome of the Rock/Mosque is the third structure built on the Temple Mount since the destruction of the 2nd Temple.
The Romans reportedly completely demolished Jerusalem around and the 2nd Temple. Thus, they were the first to erect something in the holy place. So back to the chalk board.
Moreover, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 points to a person as opposed to a structure, as do portions of Daniels prophecies which I have to go back and study again.
Hi
'Blood moons” or “Sackcloth moons” are not a rare event. They are a lunar eclipse and can be predicted just as solar eclipses can. When described in the bible they always relate to the view from Israel.
Cubes, the Tribulation time applies to the whole world, but in a special way to the chosen people.Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes.
i wasn't talking about a lunar eclipse
no one can know that timeMat 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
oh there's this from the Clark commentary on Da. 9:27
Dan 9:27 –
And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate – This clause is remarkably obscure. כנף שקוצים משמם kenaph shikkutsim meshomem, “And upon the wing of abominations causing amazement.” This is a literal translation of the place; but still there is no determinate sense. A Hebrews MS., written in the thirteenth century, has preserved a very remarkable reading here, which frees the place from all embarrassment. Instead of the above reading, this valuable MS. has ובהיכל יהיה שיקוץ ubeheychal yihyey shikkuts; that is, “And in the temple (of the Lord) there shall be abomination.” This makes the passage plain, and is strictly conformable to the facts themselves, for the temple was profaned; and it agrees with the prediction of our Lord, who said that the abomination that maketh desolate should stand in the holy place, Mat_24:15, and quotes the words as spoken δια Δανιηλ του φροφητου, by Daniel the prophet. That the above reading gives the true sense, there can be little doubt, because it is countenanced by the most eminent ancient versions.Hi nashash,
No one knows the day nor the hour. but the season we should know, perhaps the year the month, even the week?
1Thess 5.4″ But you,brethren, are not in darkness so that the day should not overtake you like a thief”William Miller said That Day of the Lord would be some where between March 21 1843 and March 21 1844
Hi nashash,
Yes plenty have been made fools of over this issue. But are you one of the waiting bridesmaids?
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal good news to proclaim to those who live on the Earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and language, and people;
Rev 14:7 and he said with a great voice, “Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him Who made Heaven and Earth, and sea and springs of waters
ev 12:11 They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives in the face of death
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!”
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!”Quote (nashash @ Feb. 25 2005,02:04) Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the LORD comes. i wasn't talking about a lunar eclipse
no one can know that timeMat 24:36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
oh there's this from the Clark commentary on Da. 9:27
Dan 9:27 –
And for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate – This clause is remarkably obscure. כנף שקוצים משמם kenaph shikkutsim meshomem, “And upon the wing of abominations causing amazement.” This is a literal translation of the place; but still there is no determinate sense. A Hebrews MS., written in the thirteenth century, has preserved a very remarkable reading here, which frees the place from all embarrassment. Instead of the above reading, this valuable MS. has ובהיכל יהיה שיקוץ ubeheychal yihyey shikkuts; that is, “And in the temple (of the Lord) there shall be abomination.” This makes the passage plain, and is strictly conformable to the facts themselves, for the temple was profaned; and it agrees with the prediction of our Lord, who said that the abomination that maketh desolate should stand in the holy place, Mat_24:15, and quotes the words as spoken δια Δανιηλ του φροφητου, by Daniel the prophet. That the above reading gives the true sense, there can be little doubt, because it is countenanced by the most eminent ancient versions.
Hi Nahash and all,The thought crossed my mind too that before the Temple was destroyed, it was reported that it was profaned (70 or 132 AD).
If this is true, then some of the prophecies in Matt 24 and even Daniel 11 regarding this person who thinks himself a god and has no regard for God may have been already fulfilled around the same time.
MATTHEW 24:
vs. 2 = has been fulfilled. The Temple is definitely not there.
vs. 5, 11, = False Christ's and prophets. Many claim to be OF Christ who deceive, is it the same? Is this more rampant now than before?
vs. 6-8 = wars and rumors of wars = This is perhaps not unique to our time, but warfare has grown in intensity due to more dangerous weapons and modes of warfare.
This is being fulfilled.
vs 9 = then shall they deliver you up to be aflicted, ..kill you… – Is this speaking about Christians or Jews in general, as a race? The holocust was directed primarily against Jewish people. The early christians and of course, Jews/Judaits experienced this under Roman persecution. We have modern day christian persecution. Is this intensifying? Some say that it is.
vs 10 – offenses, betrayals and hatred… has this happened or is it happening?
vs. 12-13 – the love of many shall wax cold because of abounding iniquity – I'll say this is definitely on the rise. The news cables portray it, and it is a challenge. We need to draw close to the Lord and be constantly filled with the fruit of his spirit in order to overcome. It is my chiefest concern as a christian, that my love not grow cold. Everything is hinged on it.
vs 14 – this gospel shall be preached for a witness and then the end comes. I would have thought that it has, but of course, the trinitarian message is what is largely preached. We need to pray the Lord of the Harvest to give us more laborers indeed!
vs. 15-26 -**abormination of desolation and period of Tribulation** Was it fulfilled in 70/130 AD? If not Is it dependent on a 3rd Temple being built on the Temple Mount to be fulfilled?If verses 15-26 have already been fulfilled, then it is safe to say that we are now living in expectation of Christ, vs 27 onward, and it is just a matter of when!
I have to say that the evidence seem to say that vs 1-26 have been fulfilled! Unless it can be determined scripturally that a 3rd Temple is promised, etc.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 24 2005,19:55) Hi
'Blood moons” or “Sackcloth moons” are not a rare event. They are a lunar eclipse and can be predicted just as solar eclipses can. When described in the bible they always relate to the view from Israel.
Cubes, the Tribulation time applies to the whole world, but in a special way to the chosen people.
I agree that the period of Tribulation & climatic changes would be global too, as shown elsewhere in the scriptures. e.g. Revelations.It appears that those atmospheric events are also on the rise, wouldn't you say?
on Da. chapter 9 there is so much confusion taught about this chapter, at this time of Messiah people where expecting Messiah to come , cause of what was in the prophecies , Da 9 tells when he would appear and how he would die and why he would die, and also what to expect untill his coming,
when people study the prophets they realize Jesus is the only one who fits the profile , and the time of his first advent has passed. so we believe when he said he well return ,
so we have two groups of people who are waiting his coming,
one group believes it will be his first apearance, the other group knows it is as He has said in his ministry on earth the first time, but the the unbelief of the first group is our salvation Romans explains this. mybe this is meant when said Mat 19:30 But many first ones shall be last, and last ones first.Hi Nash and cubes,
Dan 9 says that “In the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering and on the wing of abomination will come one who makes desolate,even until a complete destruction”The point is there is no mention of having to have the temple rebuilt but just for the sacrifices to start and be stopped, …and did I hear a rumour they were starting? That is the middle of the 7 yr tribulation period bringing into play all the scriptures about the second half of the “week”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 26 2005,06:38) Hi Nash and cubes,
Dan 9 says that “In the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering and on the wing of abomination will come one who makes desolate,even until a complete destruction”The point is there is no mention of having to have the temple rebuilt but just for the sacrifices to start and be stopped, …and did I hear a rumour they were starting? That is the middle of the 7 yr tribulation period bringing into play all the scriptures about the second half of the “week”
Reliable sources report that preparations have been underway for a third Temple, and all the related things. That is no secret in fact. Question is, has God purposed it, and so will they be successful?Furthermore, I recently read somewhere that there are plans to reestablish the Sanhedrin council. Also, that they have located a man in the lineage of David (confirmed DNA, etc) who is being considered as a King! I'll try and find the articles again and post links.
**ADDENDUM**
Link to Jerusalem Post on article regarding Sanhedrin and consideration for a modern-day king in Israel.Hi cubes,
Very helpful. I guess as scripture speaks of the Abomination of desolation 'standing in the holy place' that suggests that the temple and 'holy place' has to be rebuilt first?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2005,03:10) Hi cubes,
Very helpful. I guess as scripture speaks of the Abomination of desolation 'standing in the holy place' that suggests that the temple and 'holy place' has to be rebuilt first?
Well, most “prophecy” scholars seem to agree that a 3rd Temple is going to be built etc.I am beginning to think that this prophecy has already been fulfilled, given the reports of events in 70/132 AD and the subsequent destruction of the 2nd Temple.
Here is another interesting site I found regarding what the Prophet Haggai said concerning the 2nd Temple – page 2 of Where is the King of Israel: I am not familiar with anything else on the website at this time, as I only read this article.
here are some online radio programs that are bible base in teaching
http://www.hopefortoday.org/
http://www.cjf.org/you can access there library
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
