Emperor Constantine

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Dec. 05 2009,00:21)

It is not disputed that Constantine was a significant and important historical and political figure.  But to claim that he was able to sabotage the Church of Jesus Christ is an atheistic assumption having its roots in a strain of thinking that refuses to recognize the unique nature of the Church itself. Human nature in the case of the Church is not the sole judge.  We can say that Constantine did thus and so historically.  But to say that he was able to introduce false doctrine or something like that is to be taking odds with the words of the Saviour. The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against it…

Depends on how one defines sabotage, if by allowing “majority rule” to determine the church, then yes he was guilty. Does majority rule always express and emit truth?
I see the majority of Arian beliefs as truth, so which is?

Depends on the view.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,16:05)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,22:40) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 03 2009,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,08:40) Hi, This Roman Emperor arranged and presided over a church council. Was God involved in the workings of the church at that point or since, or was that the time of the great apostasy, the adultery of the new bride with the World? Many churches were already in apostasy.  Constantine just worked to place order in that apostasy.  I doubt anyone from the true church was even invited to the First Council of Nicaea. kerwin There were over 300 bishops present at that meeting, but they were all from what had become the Roman Catholic church, a year earlier. Georg I am unfamiliar with the claim that the Roman Catholic Church was established prior to the Council of Nicaea.  Could you please give me some source links.  Thank you.

kerwin

The religious group existed long before Constantine, but was not known by any specific name, as far as I know.
Jews, as well as Christians, were persecuted by the Romans until 313 AD.
It was only after the battle against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, did Constantine stop the persecution, the reason? he claims he had a dream, or vision, in which he saw a red cross in the heaven with the inscription under it, “under this sign conquer”. So he had red crosses painted on the shields of his soldiers, and banners; he won the battle. Ever wonder why the crusaders wore the same sign?
Anyway, he gave credit of the victory to the God of this new religion, Christianity. So first he stopped the persecution in 313 AD, and than in 324 AD he made it the religion of the empire, that is when it got the name “ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”.
No doubt there were political reasons as well.

Georg

[Constitutionalist]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,06:57)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,16:05) Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,22:40) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 03 2009,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,08:40) Hi, This Roman Emperor arranged and presided over a church council. Was God involved in the workings of the church at that point or since, or was that the time of the great apostasy, the adultery of the new bride with the World? Many churches were already in apostasy.  Constantine just worked to place order in that apostasy.  I doubt anyone from the true church was even invited to the First Council of Nicaea. kerwin There were over 300 bishops present at that meeting, but they were all from what had become the Roman Catholic church, a year earlier. Georg I am unfamiliar with the claim that the Roman Catholic Church was established prior to the Council of Nicaea.  Could you please give me some source links.  Thank you. kerwin The religious group existed long before Constantine, but was not known by any specific name, as far as I know. Jews, as well as Christians, were persecuted by the Romans until 313 AD. It was only after the battle against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, did Constantine stop the persecution, the reason? he claims he had a dream, or vision, in which he saw a red cross in the heaven with the inscription under it, “under this sign conquer”. So he had red crosses painted on the shields of his soldiers, and banners; he won the battle. Ever wonder why the crusaders wore the same sign? Anyway, he gave credit of the victory to the God of this new religion, Christianity. So first he stopped the persecution in 313 AD, and than in 324 AD he made it the religion of the empire, that is when it got the name “ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”. No doubt there were political reasons as well. Georg

It was called Roman Catholic Church Before Constantine.

[banana]

Of course, if you say so.

Georg

[kerwin]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 06 2009,00:00)

Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,06:57) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,16:05) Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,22:40) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 03 2009,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,08:40) Hi, This Roman Emperor arranged and presided over a church council. Was God involved in the workings of the church at that point or since, or was that the time of the great apostasy, the adultery of the new bride with the World? Many churches were already in apostasy.  Constantine just worked to place order in that apostasy.  I doubt anyone from the true church was even invited to the First Council of Nicaea. kerwin There were over 300 bishops present at that meeting, but they were all from what had become the Roman Catholic church, a year earlier. Georg I am unfamiliar with the claim that the Roman Catholic Church was established prior to the Council of Nicaea.  Could you please give me some source links.  Thank you. kerwin The religious group existed long before Constantine, but was not known by any specific name, as far as I know. Jews, as well as Christians, were persecuted by the Romans until 313 AD. It was only after the battle against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, did Constantine stop the persecution, the reason? he claims he had a dream, or vision, in which he saw a red cross in the heaven with the inscription under it, “under this sign conquer”. So he had red crosses painted on the shields of his soldiers, and banners; he won the battle. Ever wonder why the crusaders wore the same sign? Anyway, he gave credit of the victory to the God of this new religion, Christianity. So first he stopped the persecution in 313 AD, and than in 324 AD he made it the religion of the empire, that is when it got the name “ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”. No doubt there were political reasons as well. Georg It was called Roman Catholic Church Before Constantine.

I believe you are mistaken on that one since Catholic is derived from a Greek word meaning “universal”. There was an organization in Rome but I am not even sure the head of it was considered all that special until after the council of Nicaea.

[Catholic Apologist]

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 05 2009,21:31)

Quote (CatholicApologist @ Dec. 05 2009,00:21) It is not disputed that Constantine was a significant and important historical and political figure.  But to claim that he was able to sabotage the Church of Jesus Christ is an atheistic assumption having its roots in a strain of thinking that refuses to recognize the unique nature of the Church itself. Human nature in the case of the Church is not the sole judge.  We can say that Constantine did thus and so historically.  But to say that he was able to introduce false doctrine or something like that is to be taking odds with the words of the Saviour. The gates of hell SHALL NOT prevail against it… How would the church be today if the Donatists view would have prevailed in the early church? Especially if Arius and Eusebius would have issued in the Arian truth. CatholicApologist what do you think of Constantine helping cementing in the creeds of the Orthodox church but later getting baptized by Arian bishop Eusebius, little strange don't you think?

I reject your premise that Constantine helped to cement anything in any church decision. What you still apparently don't see is the hand of God guiding the Church by the Holy Spirit. Politics do not determine Church doctrine. The Holy Spirit does. The Church is prevented from binding erroneous dogma on the faithful.

So no, nothing strange. Constantine was a man. The Church is divine through grace.

[NickHassan]

Hi CA,
God does not guide the whore of Babylon.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 06 2009,08:59)

Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 06 2009,00:00) Quote (banana @ Dec. 05 2009,06:57) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 04 2009,16:05) Quote (banana @ Dec. 03 2009,22:40) Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 03 2009,23:22) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2006,08:40) Hi, This Roman Emperor arranged and presided over a church council. Was God involved in the workings of the church at that point or since, or was that the time of the great apostasy, the adultery of the new bride with the World? Many churches were already in apostasy.  Constantine just worked to place order in that apostasy.  I doubt anyone from the true church was even invited to the First Council of Nicaea. kerwin There were over 300 bishops present at that meeting, but they were all from what had become the Roman Catholic church, a year earlier. Georg I am unfamiliar with the claim that the Roman Catholic Church was established prior to the Council of Nicaea.  Could you please give me some source links.  Thank you. kerwin The religious group existed long before Constantine, but was not known by any specific name, as far as I know. Jews, as well as Christians, were persecuted by the Romans until 313 AD. It was only after the battle against his brother-in-law, Maxentius, did Constantine stop the persecution, the reason? he claims he had a dream, or vision, in which he saw a red cross in the heaven with the inscription under it, “under this sign conquer”. So he had red crosses painted on the shields of his soldiers, and banners; he won the battle. Ever wonder why the crusaders wore the same sign? Anyway, he gave credit of the victory to the God of this new religion, Christianity. So first he stopped the persecution in 313 AD, and than in 324 AD he made it the religion of the empire, that is when it got the name “ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH”. No doubt there were political reasons as well. Georg It was called Roman Catholic Church Before Constantine. I believe you are mistaken on that one since Catholic is derived from a Greek word meaning “universal”.   There was an organization in Rome but I am not even sure the head of it was considered all that special until after the council of Nicaea.

The heads of the Christian churches were Bishops (overseers), in Italy they were also called Papa or Pope (father). In 533 AD, Justinian decided that only the bishop of Rome should hold that title (Pope), and be the head of all the clergy.
The great apostasy was caused by the pope, the Catholic church, when he executed all who would not except “his” doctrine, and all who were caught reading the bible.

Georg

[kerwin]

George,

Can you please supply a link to a neutral or pro-Catholic source to back up what you wrote about Justinian? Thank you.

[banana]

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,02:38)

George, Can you please supply a link to a neutral or pro-Catholic source to back up what you wrote about Justinian?  Thank you.

kerwin

I will look for it, frankly I heard that on the History Channel, on one of their programs about the Roman empire.

Georg

[kerwin]

Quote (banana @ Dec. 06 2009,21:48)

Quote (kerwin @ Dec. 07 2009,02:38) George, Can you please supply a link to a neutral or pro-Catholic source to back up what you wrote about Justinian?  Thank you. kerwin I will look for it, frankly I heard that on the History Channel, on one of their programs about the Roman empire. Georg

I appreciate it. If it can be confirmed it is a powerful piece of knowledge.

[banana]

kerwin

This is what I came up with so far.

Constantine I and Christianity
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Saint Constantine the Great

mosaic in Hagia Sophia, Constantinople, c. 1000
Isapostolos, 13th Apostle
Born Feb 27, 272 in Naissus, Roman Empire (now Niš, Serbia)
Died May 22, 337 in Nicomedia, Roman Empire (now İzmit, Turkey)
Venerated in Eastern Orthodoxy
Major shrine Church of the Holy Apostles
Feast May 21
Attributes In hoc signo vinces, Labarum
Troparion From the Byzantine Menaion Your servant Constantine, O Lord and only Lover of Man, beheld the figure of the Cross in the Heavens; and like Paul (not having received his call from men, but as an Apostle among rulers set by Your hand over the royal city) he preserved lasting peace through the prayers of the Theotokos.
The Roman Emperor Constantine the Great converted to Christianity following his victory at the Battle of Milvian Bridge in 312. Under his rule, Christianity rose to become the dominant religion in the Roman Empire, and for his example of a “Christian monarch” Constantine is revered as a saint in the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox Church. Not only the details of his adoption of Christianity make the religious beliefs of Constantine I interesting; theologians and historians alike have argued about the question to which form of Christianity Constantine ultimately converted, with regard to the legitimation of religious persecution.

Georg

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