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Evidence of Design
The implications of this discovery are more wide spread than is evident at first glance.
It demonstrates that in the earliest chapters of the Book of Genesis, God had already laid out His plan of redemption for the predicament of mankind. It is a love story, written in blood on a wooden cross which was erected in Judea almost 2,000 years ago.The Bible is an integrated message system, the product of supernatural engineering. Every number, every place name, every detail every jot and tittle is there for our learning, our discovery, and our amazement. Truly, our God is an awesome God.
It is astonishing to discover how many Biblical controversies seem to evaporate if one simply recognized the unity the integrity of these 66 books, penned by 40 authors over thousands of years.
It is remarkable how many subtle discoveries lie behind the little details of the text. Some of these become immediately obvious with a little study; some are more technical and require special helps.
Many of these discoveries are described in our Briefing Package, Beyond Coincidence. Several are also highlighted in our recent book, The Creator Beyond Time and Space.
Look behind every detail: there's a discovery to be made! God always rewards the diligent student. What other messages lay hidden behind the names in the Bible? Check it out.
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 12 2009,06:00) Quote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 12 2009,04:58) Hi The Thinker, Since yesterday I have been gathering scriptures for you and I am curious as to how you will respond because it is evident to me from your understanding that you are unaware of what much of the New Testament teaches.
I know you do not like reading long posts, but most of this post is scripture….you do like reading SCRIPTURE, don't YOU?
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
YHWH our heavenly Father MADE the heavens and the earth. Our Heavenly Father gives to all of us, life, breath and all things. Jesus was on the other hand the purpose of creation, for YHWH made the heavens and earth through the foreknowledge of the eternal salvation that would come through him. The world will be judged in righteousness not by a man who ordained himself, but by the One True God YHWH, our Heavenly Father who ordained a man and gave us assurance by raising that human being from the dead.
Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Jesus is clearly shown to be the Beginning of the firstborn of the dead, he is the Beginning of the NEW heaven and Earth.
Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. 19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
Jesus is consistently, before and after his resurrection, shown not to be the One True God, but the Christ, a human being.
Jesus was of the first fruit of the Holy Spirit, he is NOT the One True God, he is clearly shown to be a human being given immortality by the One True God, his Father, YHWH.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him,that God may be all in all.
Once again Jesus is clearly shown not to be part of the One True God, but a human being given the first fruits of the Holy Spirit given an immortal body.
Lu 20:36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God
Jesus was certainly led by the Spirit of God, he was clearly not the One True God, he was led by Him and His Spirit. Jesus is no longer able to die anymore not because he went back to being God but because he became an immortal human being.
Ga 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
We are sons of God through
faith not in the God Jesus but the Christ Jesus, the HUMAN Messiah!!2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus is STILL the Christ, the HUMAN Messiah and Paul is Christ’s apostle by the Will not of Jesus but by God our Father.
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
ONE God the Father, OF WHOM are all things, all things exist through the power of the Father, and there is also one lord, the human Messiah through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Do you not understand what this means TT? Why can’t you distinguish the difference here? There was ONE God our Father who created all things and He created all things through the MAN Jesus the Messiah.
Revelation 10:5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Hebrews 1:1God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
YHWH, our heavenly Father created the heavens and the earth through Jesus Christ. He created it by him and for him. YHWH created the heavens and the earth by and for the MAN who He raised from the dead. He declared it to His prophets.
Revelation14:7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” 8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.” 9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Jesus is the Lamb and he once again is distinguished not as God, and NOT as the God of whom made the heavens and the earth.
Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: 74 To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. 76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; 79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace.” 80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.
Acts 3:17 Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
Jesus was not the YHWH of the Old Testament, he was the PROMISE to come, the promise that existed since the world began and was spoken to the prophets as a promise which included a peaceful earth with righteous men dwelling in it.
We are consistently shown throughout the bible that it was YHWH our heavenly Father that made the heavens and the earth spoken of in Genesis. We are told in Colossians 1 that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the FIRSTBORN of the dead. Jesus the man born of Mary, loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, and it is by the foreknowledge of Jesus that God created the heavens and the earth in THAT beginning. By the work of Jesus through God did Jesus lay the foundation of the NEW heaven and NEW earth.
Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
We are shown clearly that YHWH the Father created the heavens and the earth in THAT beginning. The beginning spoken of in Hebrews 1:10 would then obviously be speaking of a different beginning then the one of Genesis.
Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
Scripture does not
say that the God who became Jesus created the heavens and the earth. Scripture shows us that God, YHWH the One True God the Father created all things through CHRIST. Who is Christ but the beginning of the fulfillment of God’s promise of eternal salvation! Who is Christ but the beginning of the dead being raised! Who is Christ but the author and beginning of the New heaven and earth!
Jodi,
I have told you before that I am not going to answer your lengthy dissertations point by point. It takes too much time and energy. When have I ever denied that Jesus was God's servant? My position is that He pre-existed as God and took the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man HE HUMBLED HIMSELF (Philippinas 2). Then it says that God highly exalted Him as has given Him a name that is above every name. It says that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow.Exodus chapter 20 says that we are not to serve or bow to other gods. You have said that Christ is a god. Paul served Jesus and said that we are to bow to him. If God has not made Christ to be God to us then how do you reconcile these things with Exodus 20? If Christ is not God then Jehovah must have relaxed His standard. Right?
thinker
What is your true deal here TT? Can you not understand that to explain ONE scripture it often takes the support of many others, so therefore if we are discussing what is a difficult scripture (one highly debatable), why do you find it unreasonable for me to give a post containing many scriptures?
The scriptures that I posted ALL CONNECT TOGETHER and prove my point effectively, rather unfortunate you will not read it.
I have shortened the above post, I hope you will find the following post more acceptable.
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them. 24 So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: “Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the mouth of Your servant David have said: 'Why did the nations rage, And the people plot vain things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand, And the rulers were gathered together Against the Lord and against His Christ.' 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
Acts 17:23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
Revelation 10:5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Jesus is distinguished NOT as the God who made the heavens and the earth.
So how does that make sense with Hebrews 1:10 then?
Hebrews 1:10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Given an abundance of scripture it is evident that the beginning that is being spoken of here would OBVIOUSLY not be the beginning of Genesis, for that has ALREADY been FULLY established to be NOT the work of Christ but the work of the FATHER.
Colossians 1 tells us that Jesus is the BEGINNING of the FIRSTBORN of the dead. Jesus the man born of Mary, loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, and it is by the foreknowledge of Jesus that the Father created the heavens and the earth in THAT beginning. But it was by the work of Jesus (through God), that the foundation of the NEW heaven and NEW earth is created.
Scripture shows us that God, YHWH the One True God the Father created all things through CHRIST. Who is Christ but the beginning of the fulfillment of God’s promise of eternal salvation! Who is Christ but the beginning of the dead being raised! Who is Christ but the author and beginning of the New heaven and earth!
RokkaMan, while I admire your obvious enthusiasm, I think looking for meaning in hidden Bible codes is like looking for meaning in the quatrains of Nostrodamus; the problem is everyone sees what they want to see and supporting evidence is subjective and interpretive in the extreme. As for the Bible, as compiled, it hardly is, in my opinion, a work of unitary integrity with all 66 books having profound meaning and connection. Take for instance, the Song of Solomon, which is nothing more then erotic poetry; try as people may to make it somehow a hidden analogy of divine love it is clearly simple romantic poetry and hardly what I would call divine wisdom or instruction. I think if one wants to discover God's true grandeur a study of mathematics and physics (including Quantum Mechanics) would produce a more awe inspiring appreciation of the Almighty then scripture.
Quote (Cato @ Aug. 12 2009,08:26) RokkaMan, while I admire your obvious enthusiasm, I think looking for meaning in hidden Bible codes is like looking for meaning in the quatrains of Nostrodamus; the problem is everyone sees what they want to see and supporting evidence is subjective and interpretive in the extreme. As for the Bible, as compiled, it hardly is, in my opinion, a work of unitary integrity with all 66 books having profound meaning and connection. Take for instance, the Song of Solomon, which is nothing more then erotic poetry; try as people may to make it somehow a hidden analogy of divine love it is clearly simple romantic poetry and hardly what I would call divine wisdom or instruction. I think if one wants to discover God's true grandeur a study of mathematics and physics (including Quantum Mechanics) would produce a more awe inspiring appreciation of the Almighty then scripture.
Yes but I did not have to dig deep and take a perspective approach.These are the translation of names. When translated in the order they are given in scripture…It paints a striking resemblence to the ideology of Jesus' Identity.
Us trinitarians believe Man appointed our own sorrow through Sin, but the Blessed Lord our God became Flesh to preach His death on the cross for the remition of our sins, to give the despairing…Rest and everlasting life.
Is it coincedence that the whole bible was summed up in the Geneology of the first names in the OT?
Call it coincedence or call it divine miracle…All miracles of God can be rationalized…that's why it requires faith.
AmenQuote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 12 2009,06:15) Jodi Lee WE DO NOT DISAGREE THE JESUS IS LESS THAN THE FATHER. My arguement is that Jesus is EQUAL to the father in ESSENCE because he CAME from the Father's Fabric of essence.
But he is LESS in AUTHORITY.
Which means, The Father calls the shots.
If the Father calls the shots then Jesus is his servent.
So yes we agree on that, but it is undeniable that Jesus is God The Son MADE Flesh.
How is it that Jesus is the God made flesh if scripture declares that for us there is only ONE TRUE God, the Father?John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Clearly the glory that Jesus had before the world was, was not himself as being God, for the scripture just told us that there exists ONLY ONE TRUE God and that is the Father.
1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
Acts 3:17 Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.' 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Scripture shows us nothing about God becoming a human being, it shows us that the One True God the Father, who’s name is YHWH, had a plan in the beginning before time began that was a plan to bring eternal life unto man. This plan is shown to be fulfilled through a human being, that was prophesied to be of the seed of David. One MAN was raised from the dead given the firstfruits of immortality from the Holy Spirit, and died so that all could also be raised from the dead. As Christ is the heavenly man, we too will be JUST LIKE him!!
Jesus is shown to not have existed until his birth, except for in the mind of God, where he had glory with God being the man that would come and bring salvation to the world.
Rokkaman said:
Quote A true king is to be a servent to his people. Amen! You understand the heart of servanthood. Unfortunately many here think a servant is necessarily less than the one he/she serves. But Jesus is our King and He serves us everyday.
thinker
BECAUSE JESUS AND THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE.
Do you not read?
Look at my signature.
Scripture STATES that THERE ARE 3 that bear witness in Heaven.
The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit….THESE 3 ARE ONE.
So when you ask me, how can Jesus be God made flesh when scripture states there is only one God.
My Answer is…Because Jesus and The Father ARE ONE BEING.
Jesus is just the part of God (The Word) that was seperated and given the Identity of The Son.
Let me not even say seperated, a better word is distinguished.
Just because your brain's limitation and inability to see that 3 can be one doesn't mean God is held to that same limitation.
If H20 can be Ice, Water, or Gas…why can't GOD be Man, Spirit, and Soul.
hhmm doesn't that sound a lot like the composition of a Human?
Jodi lee said:
Quote What is your true deal here TT? Can you not understand that to explain ONE scripture it often takes the support of many others, so therefore if we are discussing what is a difficult scripture (one highly debatable), why do you find it unreasonable for me to give a post containing many scriptures? The scriptures that I posted ALL CONNECT TOGETHER and prove my point effectively, rather unfortunate you will not read it.
Jodi Lee,
I explained already. It takes too much time and energy. It's not just me. Go to General Questions and read the Long Posts thread. Almost all prefer that posts be short.thinker
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 12 2009,05:43) Don't know if you guys realize but when Jesus The Son of God, or God The Son came to earth. His Authority and Glory was SUSPENDED while he was on earth, so that he may fufill the prophesies of a suffering servent. This means, he was a Man in Flesh, but in him was his own Soul of God The Son, with the Spirit of God The Father.
It was this Spirit (not the Holy Ghost) that led and instructed him, and taught him in the desert and revealed his Identity to himself.
It was this spirit that with Authority allowed him to perform miracles.
So on earth, Yes he was but a Man with the True Spirit of God within him.
After his death and ressurection, he Ascneded back into the fullness of his power and Glory. This is the Inheritence that was spoken of while he was on Earth.
The kingdom was given unto him through the New Convenant, because before the Focal Point was God the Father.
Now the Focal Point is God The Son, who then will hand over the kingdom back to his Father, while basking in the same glory.
Jodi Lee,
You posted
Ephesians 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peaceWhat were the TWO, God was speaking of?
A New man born of The Flesh of a Woman, and the Spirit of God The Father.
This is why Jesus is the literal Son of God, because he was MADE Flesh from the Spirit of THE FATHER and the Flesh of a Woman, uniting the 2.
So Jesus was not created like creation. He LITERALLY COMES FROM THE FATHER's Spirit….or lets call it the Father's Flesh.
If he comes from the Father's Flesh, he is OF the Father's essence.
This means HE is EQUAL to the father in Essence (before the foundation of creation)
After creation he suspended his Deity in Heaven, and was allowed to be merged with mankind by beind PUT inside of a Virgin Woman who came from the Line of David.
He lived and walked as a Man in Flesh but in him was the Spirit of The Father. No man has ever had the spirit of the Father in Him…we have had the Holy Ghost which is maniefestation of The Father's Wisdom…but The Father Himself dwelled within Jesus. Althou Jesus maintained his own Soul.
Flesh is how we relate to the Physical World.
Soul is how we relate to other Humans
Spirit is how we relate to GodGod's composition.
Flesh is Jesus Christ relating to the World.
Soul is his Holy Spirit relating to Mankind
Spirit is God The Father.God The Son's composition.
Flesh is his relation to the World
Soul is God The Son manifested as man observing as a Human
Spirit is God The Father in himSo yes Jesus was a Man. but do not forget his Virgin Birth and who his Biological Father was. If he is truly the Literal Son of God then he is a God himself.
The offspring of a reptile is a reptile.
The offspring of a Monkey is a Monkey.
The offspring of a Human is a Human.The offspring of God and a Human, is a God/Human.
Jesus was Human in Flesh, God in Spirit.
He is God The Son
Jesus came from the Father the same way Adam came from the Father, by the direct Will of God. We came into being by our parents will, Jesus did not.John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Jesus was not God the son and chose to come down and become a human. He was not God the Son who God the Father sent either.
30 Therefore they said to Him, “What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do? 31 Our fathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' ” 32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Just as the bread from heaven was produced on earth but came from the direct will of God, thus coming from heaven, so it is the same with Jesus. As the bread was made on earth through God’s Will from heaven, so the Messiah who was planned from the beginning, was also created on earth in the womb of Mary through God’s Will from heaven.
Remember,
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Jesus did not come down from heaven in a literal sense. How absurd to think that part of the infant baby born from Mary's womb was some sort of morphed being of a God Son? Very pagan idea indeed. Jesus is the Messiah, a human being, and it was THAT HUMAN BEING that was foreordained in the beginning, but did not come to life until God fertilized Mary's egg with a human sperm, creating a man who was in every way like us.
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Clearly the glory that Jesus had before the world was, was not himself as being God, for the scripture just told us that there exists ONLY ONE TRUE God and that is the Father. Jodi Lee,
Jesus did not tell “us” that the Father was the only true God. He said this TO HIS FATHER in a prayer. The apostle John told “us” that Jesus Christ is the “true God and eternal life”:Quote And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20) Please note that the apostle John tells “us” that we are in Him who is true. He is speaking about Jesus Christ and says that He is the TRUE God and eternal life. In chapter one John said that Jesus is “that eternal life was with the Father” (vss. 1-2). So we know that the phrase “This is the true God and eternal life” is clearly a reference to Jesus.
Please explain. For me it is simple. Jesus humbled Himself and lived a life of self denial. So He said to His Father, “You are the only true God.” But John tells “us” that Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. Therefore, Jesus should mean to “us” what His Father meant to Him.
You said that the Father called Jesus “a God.” This means that Jesus was not a false God. Right?
thinker
Quote (RokkaMan @ Aug. 12 2009,09:06) BECAUSE JESUS AND THE FATHER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE. Do you not read?
Look at my signature.
Scripture STATES that THERE ARE 3 that bear witness in Heaven.
The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit….THESE 3 ARE ONE.
So when you ask me, how can Jesus be God made flesh when scripture states there is only one God.
My Answer is…Because Jesus and The Father ARE ONE BEING.
Jesus is just the part of God (The Word) that was seperated and given the Identity of The Son.
Let me not even say seperated, a better word is distinguished.
Just because your brain's limitation and inability to see that 3 can be one doesn't mean God is held to that same limitation.
If H20 can be Ice, Water, or Gas…why can't GOD be Man, Spirit, and Soul.
hhmm doesn't that sound a lot like the composition of a Human?
Jesus is NEVER referred to as God the son!! Jesus is consistently referred to as the Son of God. Jesus is referred after his resurrection as having a God himself. This God is referred to AS the ONE TRUE God, the Father. Jesus is not God and he is certainly not his OWN father.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body–whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free–and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! 16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.” 17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
By your reasoning RokkaMan I am also God!!
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
RokkaMan, dude your not paying attention at all to the context. The three are not being said to be One God, we have already been shown multiple times that the One TRUE God is the Father, He ALONE is God. The THREE are shown to be ONE in reference to being united as ONE WITNESS!! There are three that bear witness to the same thing.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all ONE in their testimony
1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I realize that this post TT is too long for you to bother reading, however I post it anyway because OTHERS might read it and see your error.
1 John Chapter 5 clearly shows us that the True God at the end of the chapter is speaking of the Father, NOT Jesus.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
Who IS the Christ? We must remember that he is the man born of the seed of David.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Jesus, as usual, is being spoken as the Son of God, not God or God the son.
6 This is He who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
Jesus the Son of God was without sin, he was Born of God. Jesus was not born of himself, he is not his own father.
19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.
Read it carefully TT, it says that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we may know HIM (Him being the Father). The Son of God has come that we may know Him who is true (Him being the Father). We are in Him (Him being the Father) who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is because Jesus reconciled us BACK to God our Father!
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Ephesians 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
again,
1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. 21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.
Jesus came to glorify God to reveal God to us that we may come to know God. Jesus came that we may come to know the ONLY TRUE GOD THE FATHER!
Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Joh 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.' “
Jodi Lee said:
Quote 1 John Chapter 5 clearly shows us that the True God at the end of the chapter is speaking of the Father, NOT Jesus. Jodi,
It is you who err. Jesus Christ is the subject of discussion from verses 13-20. In verses 13-15 we are told that we may PRAY to the Son of God:Quote These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.In this section John explicitly says that he writes these things in order that we may believe in the name of the Son of God and that we may continue to believe in Him. Then he said that we express our confidence TOWARD HIM by praying to Him. It says that if we ask anything according to His will He hears us. And that if He hears us He will give us our desires. The “He” throughout this section is THE SON OF GOD. It is unmistakeable!
JOHN SAID THAT HIS PURPOSE FOR WRITING IN THIS SECTION WAS TO ESTABLISH OUR FAITH AND OUR CONFIDENCE IN THE SON OF GOD!
In chapter one Jesus is called “That eternal life which was with the Father” (vss. 1-2). In 5:20 Jesus Christ is called “the true God and eternal life.”
Note the various translations:
*Berry's Greek-English Interlinear: “And we know that the Son of God is come, and has given us an understanding that we might know Him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ . HE is the true God and eternal life“
*Young's Literal Translation: “and we have known that the Son of God is come, and hath given us a mind, that we may know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ; THIS ONE is the true God and the life age-during!“
*English Standard version:“And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. HE is the true God and eternal life.“
*Today's New International Version:We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. HE is the true God and eternal life.“
There is more evidence from other translations. The simple reading is that Jesus Christ is “the true God and eternal life”
1. John states that his purpose was to establish faith and confidence toward the Son of God.
2. He exhorts prayer to the Son of God.
3.In chapter one he says that Jesus is “that eternal life which was with the Father.
4. The true God is the eternal life. Therefore, the true God and eternal life is Jesus Christ.
5. The pronoun “He” takes as its nearest antecedent the proper noun “Jesus Christ.” This is the SIMPLE grammatical reading and the translations agree,
“We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. HE is the true God and eternal life.“
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 12 2009,09:54) Jodi Lee said: Quote Clearly the glory that Jesus had before the world was, was not himself as being God, for the scripture just told us that there exists ONLY ONE TRUE God and that is the Father. Jodi Lee,
Jesus did not tell “us” that the Father was the only true God. He said this TO HIS FATHER in a prayer. The apostle John told “us” that Jesus Christ is the “true God and eternal life”:Quote And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20) Please note that the apostle John tells “us” that we are in Him who is true. He is speaking about Jesus Christ and says that He is the TRUE God and eternal life. In chapter one John said that Jesus is “that eternal life was with the Father” (vss. 1-2). So we know that the phrase “This is the true God and eternal life” is clearly a reference to Jesus.
Please explain. For me it is simple. Jesus humbled Himself and lived a life of self denial. So He said to His Father, “You are the only true God.” But John tells “us” that Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life. Therefore, Jesus should mean to “us” what His Father meant to Him.
You said that the Father called Jesus “a God.” This means that Jesus was not a false God. Right?
thinker
Ex 7:1 So the Lord said to Moses: “See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.YHWH the ONE TRUE God the Father, made Moses a God unto pharaoh, for God gave Moses His powers to perform signs and wonders.
This is the same unto Jesus our Messiah, God made him a God to us, for God gave Jesus His powers to perform signs, wonders and miracles.
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
Quite clear here that in the Old Testament we see that YHWH called MEN Gods, for they performed powers through Him, and thus they were seen as Gods.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Jesus is shown not to be the ONE True God, the Father IS. Therefore it should be quite clear that the following definition is what represents Jesus as being called a theos,
The New Testament Greek Lexicon
whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a.God's representative or viceregent
1.of magistrates and judgesHi thethinker:
When will you be able to see that by the works of obedience that Jesus was doing in obedience to God his and our Father, we are seeing the true God manifest through the life that he lived and died and does live. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and God is love (1 John 4:8).
That is why Jesus stated “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. It really isn't that difficult to understand. God made man in His own image. Jesus is the Last Adam.
Love in Christ,
MartyI might add that we ask in Jesus Christ our Mediator. Because He was perfect and did not sin , we have Him as a Mediator between the Father and us. No other sacrifice needed.
We can now go directly to the Throne of God our Father and ask for the forgiveness of our sins.
That is the way I pray.
IreneWorshipping Jesus wrote:
Quote So you have a conundrum in your theory, whereas the Trinitarian view does not.
My “theory” was only in regards to the correct interpretation of Hebrews 3:4 as I did not intend to actually challenge the Trinitarian tenet at that time.
Worshipping Jesus wrote:
Quote There is only “One Creator of the Universe” or “Builder” and that is God, yet the scriptures claim Jesus is the creator.
There is only one Builder though there are many “builders”. The question then becomes “where in scripture are we told that God did not use “creators” as his tools to create the world?”
Once again I choose not to challenge the Trinitarian tenet even though I see where it can be challenged from your post.
If Elohim is plural and actually means God’s family or something to that effect then it might well be referring to these “creators”.
Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 12 2009,16:02) I might add that we ask in Jesus Christ our Mediator. Because He was perfect and did not sin , we have Him as a Mediator between the Father and us. No other sacrifice needed.
We can now go directly to the Throne of God our Father and ask for the forgiveness of our sins.
That is the way I pray.
IreneIrene,
If we can go directly to the throne of the Father then we don't need to come THROUGH Christ. You has just eliminated the need for Christ altogether. Btw, Hebrews 1:8 says that it is the Son's throne. The Father said to Him, “YOUR throne O God….”One the one side of your mouth you say that Christ is our Mediator. On the other side you say that we can go directly to the Father. Which is it?
thinker
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 12 2009,15:52) Hi thethinker: When will you be able to see that by the works of obedience that Jesus was doing in obedience to God his and our Father, we are seeing the true God manifest through the life that he lived and died and does live. God is a Spirit (John 4:24) and God is love (1 John 4:8).
That is why Jesus stated “he who has seen me has seen the Father”. It really isn't that difficult to understand. God made man in His own image. Jesus is the Last Adam.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,
John 1:1-3 says that the Word was in the beginning with God and the Word WAS GOD. It says that all things were created by Him. Hebrews 1:8-10 says that the Father calls the Son “God” and attributes the whole creation to Him. He was God BEFORE He did His works of obedience which you say manifested God to us.thinker
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