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Yes but how can John's ministry be said to turn the hearts of Abraham and David to themselves?
Doesn't make sense to meHi,
John's ministry was to preach repentance, turning back to the ways of God as taught by the fathers.Yes and scripture in Luke 1 clearly identifies only one half of this prophecy regarding Elijah as being fulfilled – even as not all that was written concerning Jesus in the OT was fulfilled in his first coming.
Hi Malcolm,
Is this what you mean?
“13But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.14And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
and
” 54He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.”
and
” 70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham”
and
” 76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
79To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. “
It is interesting that Elizabeth is not recorded as being told to call him John but knew.
Female intuiition?Yes that and the fact that John's own testimony of who he was differed from Jesus' words
JOHN 1:19-23
And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
So John says – I am not Elias
MATTHEW 17:11-13
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.
and Jesus says he was… so we have a couple of possibilities1 – either John or Jesus was wrong – unlikely – they were both anointed prophets of God or something is amiss.
2 – they were both right – difficult to see how – but the only acceptable answer.
So one way I can see this panning out is if John both was and wasn't the Elijah of Mal 4
Now obviously he was – Luk 1 tells us this – he was to turn the hearts of the children to the fathers.
So when he says he isn't it is a clue that he is not the complete fulfilment of the scripture, even as Jesus explains in Matthew's gospel. He is yet to come and even so John was Elijah…
Thanks Malcolm.
So if another prophet comes with the mantle of Elijah he too may not know he fills that role?Well he would be clearly indicated as John the Baptist was – multitudes came to see him, recoginising that he was a prophet and had a message from God.
Also this prophet will know the purpose of his ministry even as John did.
Did Moses know who he was? John the baptist didn't know who he was:
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.Jesus knew the spirit of John and said he was Elias who made the path way straight for the Lord.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.What spirit did Martin Luther King come in? Was it not in the spirit of Moses “set my people free”.
Seems like TO ME (just my belief)that John and Moses came in the spirits of others and did follow those spirits to do the work that needed to be done.
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 13 2006,15:46) Did Moses know who he was? John the baptist didn't know who he was:
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.Jesus knew the spirit of John and said he was Elias who made the path way straight for the Lord.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.What spirit did Martin Luther King come in? Was it not in the spirit of Moses “set my people free”.
Seems like TO ME (just my belief)that John and Moses came in the spirits of others and did follow those spirits to do the work that needed to be done.
Martin Luther King did not say – God has sent me to set my people free- he said I have a dream – it was his dream… political stuff and humanism like Nick saysQuote (malcolm ferris @ Sep. 13 2006,22:02) Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 13 2006,15:46) Did Moses know who he was? John the baptist didn't know who he was:
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.Jesus knew the spirit of John and said he was Elias who made the path way straight for the Lord.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.What spirit did Martin Luther King come in? Was it not in the spirit of Moses “set my people free”.
Seems like TO ME (just my belief)that John and Moses came in the spirits of others and did follow those spirits to do the work that needed to be done.
Martin Luther King did not say – God has sent me to set my people free- he said I have a dream – it was his dream… political stuff and humanism like Nick says
Oh and where did he get the dream? Old men will dream dreams. Why didn't John know who he was? Jesus said John was Elias. John didn't know that. Why? Did Moses think he was to lead Israel out of bondage?Hi Kenrch,
Are all dreams of the Spirit or are dreams of the Spirit only given to those with the Spirit?Humanism is the worship of man.
It puts the second commandment before the first.
Prov 14
” 12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
2Tim 2
” 4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2006,22:45) Hi Kenrch,
Are all dreams of the Spirit or are dreams of the Spirit only given to those with the Spirit?Humanism is the worship of man.
It puts the second commandment before the first.
Prov 14
” 12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
2Tim 2
” 4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.”
Did Moses entangle himself in the affairs of his time?Sure did because it was of God. God used John the baptist. He uses men of every kind to get His will done, though none realize it.
So God didn't use Martin L King to free up those captive? Well then if it wasn't God then it was Satan. All spiritual things behind the flesh. We fight not against flesh and blood but against the prince of power of the air.
Nothing happens until God is ready for it to happen. It wasn't until the nineteen hundreds that man discovered anything else but the wheel. So who put the ideas into those men who created the nuke bomb, the transistor etc. Do you really think men are that smart for 1800 + years man did nothing then all of all of a sudden man thought of everything?
Anyways why didn't John the baptist know he was Elias? Jesus knew yet John didn't. Where did I say anything about worship of men. I don't worship any flesh.
Hi Kenrch,
No you don't but those under the influence of the god of this world do.
Rom 1
” 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2006,23:27) Hi Kenrch,
No you don't but those under the influence of the god of this world do.
Rom 1
” 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”
What about the question Nick. Why didn't John the baptist know he was Elias?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 13 2006,23:35) Hi kenrch,
God did not tell him?
And why was that? Did God tell anyone that it was His idea to create the transistor at that time He wanted. He put that thought in someones head in order to bring the end closer and fulfill scripture.Why did John not declare himself to be the Elijah of Mal 4?
Here are some possibilitiesIn a time when all knowledge was commonly transmitted by word of mouth, is it likely that the words of the angel to John's father would not have fallen on the young John's ears?
Why then did he not identify himself as the Mal 4 Ellijah?
Because this was not the great and dreadful day of the LordHe knew his ministry would not completely fulfill the prophesy –
turning the hearts of the children to the fathers was to happen at a later time
at the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord, the day that shall burn as an oven.So he used Isaiah's prophecy of his ministry to identify himself – as it accurately described what the purpose of his message was.
The people were looking for someone to come and deliver them from the oppressive rule of the Romans, not for a Lamb of God.
If they thought that John was going to fully be the one with the spirit of Elijah – they may have expected Jesus to lead them in a rebellion against the Romans.Many in fact did anyway…
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