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Hi Tim2,
Scrabbling around in scripture to find the scattered verses relating to the divine origins of Christ cannot disprove
that his God and our God is another greater being, the Father, or
that he is the son of God and man,
who is so similar to us that we can follow him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,09:39) Hi Tim2,
Scrabbling around in scripture to find the scattered verses relating to the divine origins of Christ cannot disprove
that his God and our God is another greater being, the Father, or
that he is the son of God and man,
who is so similar to us that we can follow him.
NHYou mean like the divine origins “He was with the Sons of God in the beginning”?
Arnt you also scrabbling around making inferences like that?
Amazing how you critisize others and you do the same thing!
Amazing how you critisize others and you do the same thing!
***************************************************Human nature; isn't it grand?
Hey, I just wanted to say to all my brothers out there this morning…….you all are an incrediable encouragement to me! Knowing there are men who seek God today; well, it's a huge blessing to me. God bless you all with more wisdom and insight!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 25 2007,04:25) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 24 2007,09:39) Hi Tim2,
Scrabbling around in scripture to find the scattered verses relating to the divine origins of Christ cannot disprove
that his God and our God is another greater being, the Father, or
that he is the son of God and man,
who is so similar to us that we can follow him.
NHYou mean like the divine origins “He was with the Sons of God in the beginning”?
Arnt you also scrabbling around making inferences like that?
Amazing how you critisize others and you do the same thing!
Hi W,
Christ is the firstborn son and the other sons, among whom was found Satan in Jb1-2 do not precede him in any way.One of the implications of dualism is that everything except God was created out of nothing. This should be fairly obvious from Genesis 1. God spoke, and whatever He decreed to exist came into existence. The only alternative is that creation came out of God, but this would amount to pantheism, the idea that everything is God. God is the source of all things, but all things did not come out of His Being. They came into existence out of nothing.
This is found in Romans 4:17, where God “calls the things which do not exist as existing.” Thus, things which do not exist come into existence when God calls them. They are not an extension of God's being, formed by His word into heaven and earth. They do not exist, but God calls them into existence.
Similarly, Hebrews 11:3 tells us, “the ages were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are not visible.” Thus, we shouldn't think that heaven and earth had some pre-existent invisible state, but that they came into existence out of nothing by the Word of God.
Now given that creation does not come from God's Being, Jesus is entirely other than creation, for He is begotten of the Father. He came forth from God. He was not created out of nothing. This should be abundant proof that Jesus is of the same substance as the Father and is God.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Big theological jump there.
We should not theorize out of deep ignorance.
Theology is a vanity anyway we knowing almost nothing of God's being.
Does Christ being begotten of the Father prove that he is identical to the Father?
Well one thing is sure, he would not still be part of the Father God, but a begotten son of God.
Then he could be with the Father.Hi Tim2,
I know where wisdom is to be found, in the Word of God, and will not allow myself to be forcefed the mixed fare of the creeds and doctrines of men.Quote (Tim2 @ June 01 2007,08:13) Hi Nick, Do not be as the mule which has no understanding.
Tim
Hi Tim2,Do you agree with the definition of Chalcedon that Christ was begotten of God before the ages? Or has that definition too had to give way to the latest evolutionary steps in your design of God?
Is scripture enough of a revelation of God to man to form doctrine, or do we also need to add the wisdom of some philosophers and the creed of Rome?
It appears from some here that they think the latter.
*Dual Nature. Part 1*
The argument that Yeshua had to be a man in everyway like us is a red herring!
Jesus had many attributes of God that none but the Father and he had, and none will ever have!
Just to mention a few…
1. All things were made by him and for him and without him nothing was made that is made. John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Heb 1:10
2. By him all things consist, and are held together. Col 1:17
3. All power in heaven and in earth is given to him, and he upholds all things by the word of his power. Matt 28:19 Heb 1:3 Col 1:19
4. He is the “Exact representation of Gods substance”. Heb 1:3 Col 1:15 Phil 2:6
5. He is Omnipresent! Matt 18:19 Jn 14:23 Matt 28:20
6. He could forgive all sins. (we can only forgive those who sin against us) Matt 9:2 Mk 2:5 Lk 5:20 Lk 7:48
7. He could draw all men to himself and receive their prayers and burdens. Matt 11:28 Jn 12:32 Jn 5:40
8. Whatever he saw the Father do he could do. Jn 5:17-20
9. He could raise himself from the grave. Jn 2:19-21 Jn 10:17,18
10. The Holy Spirit is subservient to him and glorifys him. Jn 16:13-15
11. To receive the Holy Spirit men have to go to Jesus and drink. Jn 7:37-40 Jn 4:10,13,14
12. Only by knowing Jesus can one have Eternal life because you cant have the Father without having Jesus. 1 Jn 5:11-13 1 Jn 5:20 Jn 17:3
13. Jesus raises from the dead whom he wills. Jn 5:21,22
14. Jesus is worshipped by the people and his disciples practiced the same “proskuneo” on Jesus that was used to the Father in John 4:24 without Jesus once discouraging this practice. Matt 28:9 Matt 28:17 Mk 5:6 Jn 9:38 Rev 5:12-14
15. Jesus is from everlasting. Col 1:17 Dan 7:22-27 Heb 7:3
16. Jesus is the Spirit that lives in every believer that is born again. Gal 4:6 Rom 8:9 2 Cor 3:17 2 Cor 13:5
17. Majesty! Jesus alone is to be honoured with the same honour given to the Father. Jn 5:23
18. Royalty! Every knee shall bow to Jesus alone and confess that he is Lord. Phil 2:9-11.
19 Jesus has life in himself. Jn 5:26
20 Jesus gives eternal life. Jn 10:28To all the unbelievers. Tell me if you know any man that has any of the attributes above. Even with the Holy Spirit in us there is “No mere man” with these attributes. Now if you can’t find any of these 20 attributes that belongs to good ole earthly man, then I submit to you that Jesus is more than just a mere man.
So lets take out the God part, since many of you confess him as your “Lord and Master”, yet you cant bring yourself to say Jesus is God.
Can we be compared to the above in any way? Lest some of you say he couldn’t do these things unless the Father was in him. Look close at these scriptures. You will see that these are attributes of Jesus and not just the Father in him.
He was not just an empty shell or vessel that had no substance of his own or a puppet on a string.
I am yet to see a scripture that says Jesus is a vessel of God!
Jesus said…
Jn 5:
17 But Jesus answered them, *My Father worketh* hitherto, *and I work.*
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that *God was his Father, making himself equal with God*.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, *these also doeth the Son likewise*.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and *sheweth him “all things” that himself doeth8: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.Could I see the hands of those who claim they have all things the Father has?
Could I see the hands of those who God has shown all things?
Is this a man in everyway like us?
Can any mere man raise himself from the dead?
Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because *I lay down my life, that I might take it again*.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days *I* will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Who but Yeshua had this commandment? Will anyone raise themselves from the dead?
It is true Yeshua can do nothing unless he sees the Father doing it, yet the Father does nothing without Yeshua., since all things were made by him and for him.
So if Yeshua exclusively has the attributes above which are the attributes of God, even if you say he is not God, you have to admit he is not just a mere man like you and I!
Therefore you will have to reconcile those attributes with the attributes of a mere man, and what you will find is a dual nature.
*The dual nature. Part Two*
We see from the above Christ with attributes of Gods nature, but we also know he had attributes of mans nature.
Whats all the confusion? Every born again believer has a dual nature at work in him or he is not born again.
Jesus said…
Matt 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.We have a spiritual nature and a carnal/fleshly nature.
Paul said…
Gal 5:20
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the *old man with his deeds*;
10 And have *put on the new man*, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:What is this “New Man” and “Old Man” Paul speaks of?
It is the Spirit and the Flesh.
It’s the “New Nature” and the “sinful nature”.
Gal 5:
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the *flesh lusteth against the Spirit*, and *the Spirit against the flesh*: and these are *contrary* the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.Looks like a dual nature to me. It’s a war between the flesh and the Spirit!
Peter says…
1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.We are born again by the living word and we are now a ‘New Creation Man”.
John says…
1 Jn 3:9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.Paul speaks of this war between the two natures, the carnal and the Spiritual.
Rom 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 *For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not*.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
[24] *O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death*?
[25] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; *but with the flesh the law of sin*.[/i]Then Paul says without the chapter break…
Rom 8: NASB
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, *God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh*,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, *who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit*.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.So do we have two natures or wills? You bet. The will of the fleshly carnal nature and the will of the Spirit also known as the mind of Christ.
It’s the New man and the old man.
Jesus was tempted in every point like we are yet without sin, because he was in the flesh.
The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. God cannot be tempted. Jesus Spirit was not tempted. He said…
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.The temptations of Christ had nothing to do with his spirit, but with his flesh.
The born again seed the word that John and Peter speaks of in us that cannot sin is the new man created in righteousness and true Holiness…
Eph 4:24
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.Jesus who is the Word had no sin in him therefore his Spirit could not sin nor be tempted.
So this destroys the argument that “God cannot be tempted so Jesus cannot be God”.
Jesus had a dual nature like we do, yet he is and was totally without sin.
He is the Word that was with God and was God, the Lord from heaven who came in the flesh to condemn sin in the flesh and to destroy the workd of the devil.
Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. So we can overcome the flesh nature by putting off the old man and putting on the new man and walking in the Spirit so that we do not fulfill the sinful nature of the flesh.
To all the unbelievers. Tell me if you know any man that has any of the attributes above.
*****************************************Again, too simple for you to grasp, I'm afraid: Jesus is the Son of God, not “any man.”
Hi W,
Did you not realise Christ, the appointed and authorised Lord and the anointed one, the man from heaven, worked in the power of God, his Father?
Did you really think he did it all by himself?
My you are slow sometimes.Quote (Not3in1 @ June 01 2007,08:43) Now, Nick, don't be like an offspring of a male ass, OK? Heehee…..I'm sorry! I just couldn't resist.
LOLSorry NH I couldnt help but lauph!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2007,10:57) Hi W,
Did you not realise Christ, the appointed and authorised Lord and the anointed one, the man from heaven, worked in the power of God, his Father?
Did you really think he did it all by himself?
My you are slow sometimes.
NHHe couldnt do it all by himself for he is God, one with the Father and the Spirit!
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